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Author Topic: Aborpopulation  (Read 20529 times)

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Detonator

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Aborpopulation
« on: September 12, 2008, 05:25:40 PM »

To reiterate:

On abortion: I believe an abortion should cost 2,000 dollars, flat rate, no matter why or what.
So you're actually pro-choice?

1: I'm pro and con. I believe it's wrong, but wouldn't bother trying to tell others not to do it. The 2,000 bucks should go to pay for the prison system. If she can convince others to think the same way, I'll vote for her.

I think many people misunderstand being pro-choice as being strictly "abortions for all!".  The point is that you don't want to ban it.  This is something the supreme court could do with more conservative/Catholic judges.  I guess it just might not matter to you because you never plan to have one, but I'll let you elaborate.  Would a ban on abortions bother you?
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Kazz

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2008, 08:56:31 PM »

Abortion is awful and traumatic and I wish that nobody in the world would ever want or need one.  However, if wishes were mashies, I'd be pissing gravy.

If abortion is made illegal, people are not going to stop having abortions.  They will start getting unsafe abortions, either from unlicensed doctors, or with the help of well-meaning friends, or even all by their lonesome.  And there is an excellent chance that they will die.  It sounds ironic, but it is necessary to the sanctity of life that abortion remains legal; only then can it be well-regulated.

All that said, preventing the need for abortions is of paramount importance.  An abortion should come free with a heapin' helpin' of education on the subjects of birth control and other women's health issues.  Quality condoms should be given away like candy to anybody with functioning genitals.

The classical Catholic idealists who promote "pro-life" and "abstinence-only" education are infuriatingly ignorant.  Yes, we all wish that the world were perfect.  However, instead of coming up with laws for your fantasyland, let's come up with actual solutions that will really save fetuses from the hose.
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Air

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2008, 09:09:14 PM »

Abortion is awful and traumatic and I wish that nobody in the world would ever want or need one.  However, if wishes were mashies, I'd be pissing gravy.

If abortion is made illegal, people are not going to stop having abortions.  They will start getting unsafe abortions, either from unlicensed doctors, or with the help of well-meaning friends, or even all by their lonesome.  And there is an excellent chance that they will die.  It sounds ironic, but it is necessary to the sanctity of life that abortion remains legal; only then can it be well-regulated.

All that said, preventing the need for abortions is of paramount importance.  An abortion should come free with a heapin' helpin' of education on the subjects of birth control and other women's health issues.  Quality condoms should be given away like candy to anybody with functioning genitals.

The classical Catholic idealists who promote "pro-life" and "abstinence-only" education are infuriatingly ignorant.  Yes, we all wish that the world were perfect.  However, instead of coming up with laws for your fantasyland, let's come up with actual solutions that will really save fetuses from the hose.
FLAWLESS VICTORY!
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Shinra

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2008, 09:23:28 PM »

Abortion is awful and traumatic and I wish that nobody in the world would ever want or need one.  However, if wishes were mashies, I'd be pissing gravy.

If abortion is made illegal, people are not going to stop having abortions.  They will start getting unsafe abortions, either from unlicensed doctors, or with the help of well-meaning friends, or even all by their lonesome.  And there is an excellent chance that they will die.  It sounds ironic, but it is necessary to the sanctity of life that abortion remains legal; only then can it be well-regulated.

I'm pretty sure this is why abortion was unbanned in the first place
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Alex

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2008, 09:40:12 PM »

I share Kazz's sentiments, pretty much.  There's also that issue that the anti-abortion types seem to tiptoe around.

What happens if she gets pregnant after being raped?  :sadpanda:
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Kazz

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2008, 10:09:08 PM »

She should have the choice, obviously, but the question becomes who pays.  If rapebortions are free, you'll have girls falsely accusing their boyfriends in order to avoid the bill.  And as we all know, it is nearly impossible to defend oneself against a rape charge.

So... abortion insurance?   :shrug:  I'm too tired to think this through.
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Air

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2008, 10:09:50 PM »

What happens if she gets pregnant after being raped?  :sadpanda:
Than she can have the kid and keep it, or put it up for adoption. The kid didn't rape her, why should it die just because she doesn't feel like having it?
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Kazz

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2008, 10:10:49 PM »

Wow.  Sora thinks abortion should be legal except in cases of rape.  That's a new one.
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Air

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2008, 10:13:17 PM »

Wow.  Sora thinks abortion should be legal except in cases of rape.  That's a new one.
I don't keep an opinion for more than 5 minutes without changing it  ::D:
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Alex

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2008, 10:13:43 PM »

She should have the choice, obviously, but the question becomes who pays.  If rapebortions are free, you'll have girls falsely accusing their boyfriends in order to avoid the bill.  And as we all know, it is nearly impossible to defend oneself against a rape charge.

So... abortion insurance?   :shrug:  I'm too tired to think this through.

But then you'd have a lot more boyfriends in jail because they raped someone!  Or prisons would be even more overcrowded than they already are!  :ohshi~:
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Misha

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2008, 10:13:57 PM »

the kid should die because everyone except for the kid is worse off if it lives, and it has no feelings to hurt.
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Air

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2008, 10:16:19 PM »

the kid should die because everyone except for the kid is worse off if it lives, and it has no feelings to hurt.
In that case the girl having it should die too for the exact same reasons.  :ohshi~:
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Cthulhu-chan

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2008, 10:17:38 PM »

Abortions for whoever wants them.  No taxes to inflate the price.  Tiny american flags for everyone else.

I like Kazz's idea of free sex ed classes with the procedure, too.
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Brentai

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008, 10:18:01 PM »

There's so very much that could go wrong with the whole "government-set fixed-price for abortions" that it's probably best not to ever go there.  I don't entirely disagree with the spirit of the idea, but it's untenable.
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Air

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2008, 10:21:20 PM »

Abortions for whoever wants them.  No taxes to inflate the price.  Tiny american flags for everyone else.

I like Kazz's idea of free sex ed classes with the procedure, too.
Okay, hold on, this just made me think of something that really pisses me off, no trolling or nothing. I'm not going to pay for some stupid young cunt to get her baby killed just because she was too retarded to use protection or keep the dick out of her. I say young because Any girl over 21 will pay for it herself via health insurance, but kids get it for free, so fuck that. Unless it won't be covered by any state-provided medical plan, it should be illegal so I don't have to pay for it. :profit:
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Detonator

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2008, 10:25:14 PM »

the kid should die because everyone except for the kid is worse off if it lives, and it has no feelings to hurt.

That's some conjecture there.  Do we judge the availability of abortions by its effect on the lives of others?  I think the mother is the only one who matters in this case, and it should be entirely up to her to judge whether the procedure is for the best.

And when do humans gain the ability to feel?  I'm of the opinion that there should be a cutoff on non-life threatening abortions, once the fetus could survive outside the womb (and is no longer just a parasite inside the mother).  I'm sure developmental neurologists could help us out on the cognitive abilities of fetuses, should we leave it up to them to decide, or use their studies to decide for ourselves what's least reprehensible to allow?
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"Imagine punching somebody so hard that they turned into a door. Then you found out that's where ALL doors come from, and you got initiated into a murder club that makes doors. The stronger you punch, the better the door. So there are like super strong murderers who punch people into Venetian doors and shit"

jsnlxndrlv

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2008, 10:39:14 PM »

Okay, hold on, this just made me think of something that really pisses me off, no trolling or nothing. I'm not going to pay for some stupid young cunt to get her baby killed just because she was too retarded to use protection or keep the dick out of her. I say young because Any girl over 21 will pay for it herself via health insurance, but kids get it for free, so fuck that. Unless it won't be covered by any state-provided medical plan, it should be illegal so I don't have to pay for it. :profit:

What you're suggesting is, basically, we're going to let anybody buy abortions "health insurance" except for the cross-section of the female population who unite "young" with "poor"?  Basically, the people who can least afford to support an unwanted baby--the ones who would most benefit from the availability of abortion--are the ones you specifically want to deprive of that option?

Sounds like you want to wind up drowning in poor people!
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Cthulhu-chan

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2008, 10:42:26 PM »

it should be illegal so I don't have to pay for it. :profit:

fuck you and your tax dollars.   ::(:

Actually, how much does the  average abortion procedure cost?

edit: also what newbie said
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Brentai

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2008, 10:47:18 PM »

Current law seems to* guesstimate state-by-state about how late in a woman's term a fetus suddenly turns into an unborn human, and sets laws based on that.  It's not perfect, especially seeing as how you never know exactly when the term started, but it's a sight better than a lot of the alternatives that have been offered.  Personally I'd like to see it boiled down to having a qualified - perhaps even specially licensed - professional make the call on whether the fetus is externally viable or not.  As it stands now you're basically relying on a specialist anyway to judge how long the term has been, and depending on his or her professional standards they could slide the number either way.

There seems to be a terribly complicated set of parameters in place to determine whether or not the procedure is publicly funded or not, and I've got mixed feelings about that.  I disagree with a lot of what Sora just said but I do feel it ought to be treated like any other insured surgery, but that blocks out a lot of lower-income people who honestly tend to have the most compelling reasons to get it done.  I like to encourage abortion whenever possible - not exactly because I'm a baby-killing monster, but, well, if you really want me to go into it again, ask me.  Anyway putting a monetary barrier in place isn't going to help anything at all, but I don't advocate treating it any different from, say, a heart replacement in the end.

Perhaps it would be best to reclassify abortion from 'elective' to 'urgent'.  Once you get past the semantics of it, it makes more sense - it's not like you can put it off until next year.


* It's a little tricky to get solid information on.
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Thad

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2008, 10:50:18 PM »

Abortion is awful and traumatic

This line of bullshit needs to die.  The most common emotion women report after abortions is relief.

Just because abortions aren't snap decisions doesn't mean they're horrible things.

She should have the choice, obviously, but the question becomes who pays.  If rapebortions are free, you'll have girls falsely accusing their boyfriends in order to avoid the bill.

Really?  REALLY?

That's kinda like the argument that if gay marriage were legal, crooked businessmen would get married so they couldn't be forced to testify against each other.  It sounds like you're just making up the most absurd scenario imaginable.

no trolling or nothing [...] stupid young cunt [...] baby killed [...] too retarded to use protection or keep the dick out of her.

And that is "no trolling" in what conceivable fucking way?

Any girl over 21 will pay for it herself via health insurance

In addition to everything Newbie already said about how stupid you are, it also bears noting that many health insurance plans don't cover the pill.
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