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[TA]

Why shouldn't abortion be used as a method of birth control?  Or, more specifically, why should the law step in and mandate that it not be used as a method of birth control?  If someone prefers a series of minor outpatient surgeries to condoms or hormonal medications, why should the law be telling them they can't?  What public interest is served?

I don't think the ultimate goal is for every pregnancy to be intentional.  That's impossible, and irrelevant.  The goal is, and should be, for every child carried to term to be wanted.  And the corollary to that is that if a child is unwanted, it shouldn't be carried to term, and nothing should be forcing pregnant women to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.  Restrictions on the mother, like "Can't get an abortion without sitting through a sex ed class", are just obstacles getting in the way of terminating unwanted pregnancies, just like laws mandating parental or spousal notification.

Education is good.  Education should be somewhere.  Requiring a class before you get an abortion isn't where it should be.  And educated people can, and do, still make irresponsible decisions, or do not want children, and there is no 100% method of effective birth control in sex.  If you think abortion ought to be viewed as a last resort, that's fine, but you can't mandate that.

[Kazz]

ok i'm done with this thread

[TA]

I'd also be in favor of full public funding for abortion.  It is good public policy, and in the state's interest, to not force anybody to birth a child they don't want.

When did we start talking about China?

... we didn't.  Where does China enter into it?

Attaching a financial burden to abortion means that there will be women who are forced to carry to term a child they don't want, because they can't afford the procedure.  It's economic discrimination.  See also: Harper v. Virginia Board of Elections.

... or don't, whatever.

[Kazz]

we both think we're right.  we're just going to repeat our arguments over and over.  i don't feel like it.  my stance is already posted.

i guess i'll just say that nobody should be denied an abortion for financial reasons, just like any other hospital treatment.

[Kashan]

Of note. China has one of the most rapidly aging populations in the world thanks to the one child policy.

I agree with TA that an unwanted child should not be carried to term, but I have trouble understanding how he can so easily hold abortion along side condoms or the pill as a valid form of regular birth control.

I don't think abortion should be made illegal because it's totally unrealistic to try to stop abortion that way, and it'll only make criminals out of women who are already probably in a pretty rough place.

Maybe I'm mis-reading TA's position, in which case 

But it seems to me that even if it's a pre-human in your view, it's still better to not kill than to kill.

[Royal☭]

Wait wait wait.


Is Kazz arguing for the possibility of generating more kids?  'cause that's what it sounds like.

[Detonator]

Abortion is awful and traumatic

This line of bullshit needs to die.  The most common emotion women report after abortions is relief.

Just because abortions aren't snap decisions doesn't mean they're horrible things.

Yeah.  It's like a therapeutic massage.  I personally know several women who get knocked up monthly, just for the abortions.  I hear it's quite relaxing.

Why shouldn't abortion be used as a method of birth control?  Or, more specifically, why should the law step in and mandate that it not be used as a method of birth control?  If someone prefers a series of minor outpatient surgeries to condoms or hormonal medications, why should the law be telling them they can't?  What public interest is served?

ok i'm done with this thread

Kazz, you're thinking about this in black-and-white terms.  You think that if abortion is not a horrible and traumatic experience, then people would get them all the time because they're lazy.  You're in favor of stigmatizing abortion, but you haven't really told us why (besides that it's the norm of society).

Let me set you straight.  You can not judge whether a woman should be forced to carry her child to term.  No one can except the mother herself.  You're against legislation banning abortion, that's good, but you can't get mad when you don't agree with every circumstance.

And for fuck's sake, no one is recommending that abortion replace birth control: your goal of no unwanted pregnancies is ideal to us, too.  All we're saying is that abortion should not be some demonized taboo for when that birth control fails.

[Catloaf]

My Sensical thoughts on abortion and rape:
In the instance of rape, abortion should be free and encouraged.

My Crazy thoughts on abortion and rape:
Abortion should be mandatory in the instance of incest.
Convicted rapists and those convicted of repeated domestic abuse should be sterilized, as an act of crime prevention as such things commonly spring violent and criminal behavior in children.
If a pregnancy is suspect of producing a child infected with AIDS or another serious incurable illness that can potentially be spread to others, it should be aborted.

[Guild]

Griswold is the case that legalized birth control, Guild.  Good God, could you at least TRY to keep up?

I know.

Your interjection was off-topic.

Would it be redundant to say "And irrelevant?"

[Guild]

we both think we're right.  we're just going to repeat our arguments over and over.  i don't feel like it.  my stance is already posted.

When I do this people assume it's concession because I don't announce it, I just stop talking. I think that's why Thad thinks I'm joking so often. It's actually a really nice ability to have.

[Brentai]

Yeah.  It's like a therapeutic massage.  I personally know several women who get knocked up monthly, just for the abortions.  I hear it's quite relaxing.

The thing is I'm starting to believe that some people actually believe that.  Get this: Abortion is always - always - a product of circumstances.  Yeah, the most common circumstance is ignorance, but there are plenty of others.  The main thing to get is that it's not just some form of after-the-fact birth control.  It's rare for a woman to want to get rid of a child she's carrying just because she didn't plan on it.  There has to be some factor involved - poverty, age, or some other situation that precludes the ability to care for the child - before a normal woman would consider it.  Accidental pregnancies by themselves rarely lead to an abortion - hell, I'm willing to be that about half of you were accidents.  I'm almost certain I was (my parents will tell me otherwise, but knowing what was going on at that time... let's just say "I don't believe that.")

[Kazz]

i don't even know where I said anything that Det said I said.

[Kashan]

i don't even know where I said anything that Det said I said.

Well clearly you're just missing the subtext in your posts.

[Detonator]

Please, then, tell me where I pegged you wrong.

Abortion is awful and traumatic

This line of bullshit needs to die.  The most common emotion women report after abortions is relief.

Just because abortions aren't snap decisions doesn't mean they're horrible things.

Yeah.  It's like a therapeutic massage.  I personally know several women who get knocked up monthly, just for the abortions.  I hear it's quite relaxing.

What are you trying to say with this?  What point are you trying to make?  Are you refuting Thad's data with your own gut feelings?  I'm assuming you're being sarcastic here, am I wrong?

[Guild]

 - It's rare for a woman to want to get rid of a child she's carrying just because she didn't plan on it.

What? Did you spend years surveying women outside clinics we don't know about?

 - There has to be some factor involved - poverty, age, or some other situation that precludes the ability to care for the child.

I'd like to introduce you to humanity. Humanity, this is Brentai. He's a nice kid. Brentai, this is humanity in general. They're selfish and capable of horrible things.

Show me a girl who got accidentally pregnant and I guarantee you she's considered abortion. I'd be willing to bet that, with the de-stigmatization of abortion today, it's the number 1 reason girls go through with one. "I just didn't plan it."

No other factors need be involved.

[Guild]

Abortion is awful and traumatic.

But girls feel relief afterwards!

BUT THEY STILL DON'T LIKE DOING IT!

[Kashan]

I'd be willing to bet that, with the de-stigmatization of abortion today, it's the number 1 reason girls go through with one. "I just didn't plan it."

No other factors need be involved.

It's nice of you to inform us how all women think.  

First off, no woman is going to use "I didn't plan it" the sole reason behind getting an abortion. It has to be "I didn't plan it and I don't want it/can't deal with it."

Secondly the stigma against abortion has changed in the last 50 years, but I wouldn't say it's lessened. More people used to get abortions when it was illegal, and while a certain portion of people have little to no stigma about it, there's also a very large group of people that never cared about it before that have a huge amount of stigma about it and are making a huge issue out of it. So I wouldn't say it has been de-stigmatized.

[Thad]

Yeah.  It's like a therapeutic massage.  I personally know several women who get knocked up monthly, just for the abortions.  I hear it's quite relaxing.

Abortion should not be used as a method of birth control, the way condoms are.

attn everyone not as well-informed as Thad: stop posting or i'll come to the next pyokon just to shit on your faces.

Stop it, I'm blushing.

[Brentai]

...I don't think you really wanted to say that in full context there.

[Friday]

I want one more person to chide the previous poster for thinking they know how women think, and then within a sentence go on to talk about how women think.