Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Friday]

NOT VERY WELL

ba dum tish

[LaserBeing]

As far as I'm concerned, until you can breathe on your own you're just a tumour with eyes.

This is the thing though: it really doesn't matter how you or I feel about abortion. Outlawing it will only make things worse. We were supposed to have learned this in the fucking 30s, when Prohibition created organised crime.

It's been stated here several times, but women will continue to have abortions, no matter what. It's up to each individual to decide whether it's the right choice; the only thing the law can decide is whether you get to have it done in a clean, safe environment, or whether you have to get a coat-hanger out of the closet.

I also believe that heroin should be legal. I don't want to start filling my veins with the white witch, but it would mean a lot fewer people shooting up with LEAD.

[Detonator]

I just don't have any idea what people think my opinion is anymore.  I thought I was being pretty clear, but apparently I'm history's greatest monster?

Then FUCKING TELL US instead of feeling so superior because you're misunderstood (which means people can't prove you wrong). 

All I can gather so far is:

1. You don't think abortions should be illegal.

2. Ideally, abortions shouldn't happen.

This is fine, I don't disagree with you.  The problem arises when you start labeling abortions as "awful".  What makes you think this, and what do you have to support this?  Instead of suggesting that we want abortions to replace condoms (really fucking stupid, abortions don't prevent AIDS), please tell us why we should feel it's "awful and traumatic" without guessing how women should feel when getting one (Thad mentioned actual data when making his "relief" post, what have you done?).

[Brentai]

I want one more person to chide the previous poster for thinking they know how women think, and then within a sentence go on to talk about how women think.

NOT VERY WELL

ba dum tish

With limited input like that, you're going to get a whole lot more of what you're asking for.

[Kazz]

I think abortions are awful because you're killing a human fetus, sucking it out, and throwing it away, and if you don't find that at least a little horrifying, fine.  I'll even admit that I might be a hypocrite on this point because I'm going to eat a steak for dinner and God only knows what was done to the cow it came from.  It's just my own subjective feeling.  If women aren't actually traumatized by the experience of an abortion, good for them, but color me surprised.

TA was the one making the argument that some women would prefer having a "quick outpatient procedure" to using condoms.  Sorry for finding that ridiculous.

And as a final note, even though I'm going to catch shit from every direction for this, Thad didn't cite any data or link anywhere, he just said they're mostly relieved.  If that's the case, FINE.

Fuck's sake, I'm sorry I said that abortions are "awful."  Would it have been better if I said they were "gross"?

[Friday]

I want one more person to chide the previous poster for thinking they know how women think, and then within a sentence go on to talk about how women think.

NOT VERY WELL

ba dum tish

With limited input like that, you're going to get a whole lot more of what you're asking for.

Yes, that's kind of the point. Or is this your roundabout way of asking me to comment on the issue?

[Detonator]

TA was the one making the argument that some women would prefer having a "quick outpatient procedure" to using condoms.  Sorry for finding that ridiculous.

It was just an example, not the basis for his argument (or any of ours) as you suggested.

So you don't like abortions being used that way (personally, I don't either), but does that mean we need to legislate against it?  I'll say it over and over again: it's entirely up to the mother.

If you don't think abortion should be legislated against in any way, then we agree and are just disagreeing on personal viewpoints of abortion (this is okay, but makes the debate pretty meaningless.  how gross we find abortion is entirely subjective).

[Kazz]

Of course I don't think it should be legislated against.  I thought that was the first thing I said.  It's got to stay legal if it's going to stay safe.

I don't even think it's wrong.  Not in any moral sense, anyway.  It's just a generally terrible thing to have to do, and I feel bad for the women who go through with it.  (Apparently I shouldn't?)

[Kayin]

Well really, who has to give data to say abortions are awful anyways? Putting your dog down because his ridden with cancer can be the right thing to do, but it's pretty awful!

Sure, a woman will feel relief. She has just escaped a huge life altering situation she probably was not ready for -- but I have not yet to meet a woman who has casually forgotten about the baby she aborted or not thought about what it could of been. Abortions suck, anyone who thinks otherwise are out of touch and just going by numbers.. as opposed to say, speaking with women who have had abortions?

Again this has nothing to do with legality nor would it ever stop me from taking part in one. But lets not lie to our selves here, having to get an abortion, besides in the case of completely psychotic women, is a pretty shitty situation to be in.

[Kashan]

That's why I only sleep with completely psychotic women.

[Detonator]

Well, legislation does not have to ban abortion to be against it.

An abortion should come free with a heapin' helpin' of education on the subjects of birth control and other women's health issues.

Seriously though, there's a good reason that sex ed classes should be part of the package.  Abortion should not be used as a method of birth control, the way condoms are.

These quotes suggest you are in favor of mandatory sex-ed classes for women receiving legal abortions.    This would be legislation, even while it keeps the abortions legal.  Of course the information should be available to anyone who wants it, but making it mandatory no longer makes it "free".

[sei]

how gross we find abortion is entirely subjective

With that in mind, when enough people's subjective experiences agree, the result changes social policy and "morality" (not in the sense freely interchangeable with "ethics").  If I had less homework to catch up on, I'd start a general morality topic, as it might get us to the core of this bullshit without wasting time on satellite issues.

For my dissertation research, I made up stories about people who did things that were disgusting or disrespectful yet perfectly harmless. For example, what do you think about a woman who can't find any rags in her house so she cuts up an old American flag and uses the pieces to clean her toilet, in private? Or how about a family whose dog is killed by a car, so they dismember the body and cook it for dinner? I read these stories to 180 young adults and 180 eleven-year-old children, half from higher social classes and half from lower, in the USA and in Brazil. I found that most of the people I interviewed said that the actions in these stories were morally wrong, even when nobody was harmed. Only one group—college students at Penn—consistently exemplified Turiel's definition of morality and overrode their own feelings of disgust to say that harmless acts were not wrong. (A few even praised the efficiency of recycling the flag and the dog).

This research led me to two conclusions. First, when gut feelings are present, dispassionate reasoning is rare. In fact, many people struggled to fabricate harmful consequences that could justify their gut-based condemnation. I often had to correct people when they said things like "it's wrong because… um…eating dog meat would make you sick" or "it's wrong to use the flag because… um… the rags might clog the toilet." These obviously post-hoc rationalizations illustrate the philosopher David Hume's dictum that reason is "the slave of the passions, and can pretend to no other office than to serve and obey them." This is the first rule of moral psychology: feelings come first and tilt the mental playing field on which reasons and arguments compete. If people want to reach a conclusion, they can usually find a way to do so.

I'm not big on partisan writing/science, but there's some interesting stuff in that article and a couple of the replies (reached by clicking [Continue...] at the bottom).

That's why I only sleep with completely psychotic women.

Redundant.

[Kazz]

Detonator:

First of all, I never said "mandatory," but I understand how one would think I implied it, so I won't raise a fuss.

If reducing the need for abortions isn't a priority, screw the education.  But if we're actually concerned about reducing unwanted pregnancies (which I think we should be), we should give condoms away.  Lots and lots of condoms.  By the fucking bucket.  In fact, the bucket should really be labelled "Fucking Bucket."

That's 90% of what I mean by "sex ed" anyway.  It's basically "Use this, for fuck's sake."

[Royal☭]

Did any of us give any indication that we didn't want a comprehensive sex education program in addition to abortions?

[Kazz]

Apparently, that's a controversial stance!

[Detonator]

Did any of us give any indication that we didn't want a comprehensive sex education program in addition to abortions?

Apparently, that's a controversial stance!

Did any of us give any indication that we didn't want a comprehensive sex education program in addition to abortions?

[Kazz]

Yes!  You did!  Six posts ago!

At the very least, you implied it as much as I implied that such education should be mandatory!

CAN WE AGREE YET?!

[Thad]

And as a final note, even though I'm going to catch shit from every direction for this, Thad didn't cite any data or link anywhere, he just said they're mostly relieved.  If that's the case, FINE.

Maybe I don't like having to dig up links every single time we have this conversation, you ASSHOLE.

"Oh!  Oh!  I can't remember what happened two months ago and Thad didn't repeat himself enough!"

Jesus Christ.  Guild is contagious.

Fuck's sake, I'm sorry I said that abortions are "awful."

Er, the word I was objecting to was pretty clearly "traumatic".

[Detonator]

Yes!  You did!  Six posts ago!

At the very least, you implied it as much as I implied that such education should be mandatory!

You said abortion and education should come as a "package", that's how I misunderstood you.  Please give me a specific quote that implies I'm against education.

These quotes suggest you are in favor of mandatory sex-ed classes for women receiving legal abortions.    This would be legislation, even while it keeps the abortions legal.  Of course the information should be available to anyone who wants it, but making it mandatory no longer makes it "free".

I thought this was specific enough to differentiate between mandatory education to get an abortion and preventative education which ideally would be done before unwanted pregnancies occur.  Though you were accusing us of this long before this post.

And for fuck's sake, no one is recommending that abortion replace birth control: your goal of no unwanted pregnancies is ideal to us, too.

Okay, so I didn't come out and speak in favor of education explicitly in this regard, but I thought it would be clear enough.

CAN WE AGREE YET?!

Not until we can actually understand each other!

[Kayin]

Just as a note, just because they feel relieved, doesn't mean it wasn't traumatic, especially in the long run. Finally not having to deal with a stressful situation like an unwanted baby could make getting pushed down the stairs a relief.

Granted it'd probably be a lot less so if we further decreased the social stigma.