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Author Topic: Religulous  (Read 24277 times)

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François

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #200 on: November 02, 2011, 07:14:03 PM »

Quote from: Mark 2:23-27
And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

This is literally Jesus justifying his disciples' breaking of the fourth commandment. The law exists for the benefit of man, rather than man existing for the benefit of the law.

Modern fundamentalists are the new Pharisees.
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Ted Belmont

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #201 on: November 02, 2011, 07:36:01 PM »

Pretty good, though this idea has been around before. It's also not very hard to do better than the 10 commandments, I'm honestly baffled by the obsession some Christian groups have with them. 4 of the commandments are pretty much strictly required for a functioning society (murder, theft, lying, and adultery) and another 2 are just practical (honor your parents and don't covet) which means there are really only 4 commandments that are saying anything unique or interesting. Of the other 4 commandments, keep the sabbath kind of stands on its own. Really though nobody actually does that or values it even among evangelicals, so how important can it be? The last 3 commandments are all variants on honoring god (don't take the lord's name in vain, no false idols, I am the lord your god).

It's also notable that other than "honor thy mother and father" and "keep the Sabbath" the commandants are strictly proscriptive, which I consider a weaker form of moral imperative and which is in my opinion counter to thrust of Christianity as a separate religion from Judaism. I think one of the notable things about Christianity compared to other religions around at the time it arose is that it told you what you should do in very open terms (Love the lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. Love your neighbor as yourself.) rather than what you shouldn't do in very specific terms.

Ten Commandments - by George Carlin
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sei

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #202 on: November 02, 2011, 08:08:08 PM »

4 of the commandments are pretty much strictly required for a functioning society (murder, theft, lying, and adultery)
Adultery doesn't need its own spot. It falls under general oath-breaking/cheating, which is probably covered under "not lying." Same goes for bearing false witness, which you didn't mention.
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Kashan

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #203 on: November 02, 2011, 09:53:35 PM »

4 of the commandments are pretty much strictly required for a functioning society (murder, theft, lying, and adultery)
Adultery doesn't need its own spot. It falls under general oath-breaking/cheating, which is probably covered under "not lying." Same goes for bearing false witness, which you didn't mention.
Oathbreaking/cheating weren't prohibited by any of the 10 commandments, unless you mean cheating in the sexual sense in which case I'm not really clear how you're separating that from adultery. It is notable that adultery deserved it's own spot at the time because of how property and inheritance were dealt with. In modern society though, you're right it could probably just be put under not lying. And the lying commandment I was referring to was "though shalt not bear false witness." Again I'm not really clear on how you're separating the two. "Though shalt not bear false witness" did technically refer to lying in court originally, but it's generally interpreted as and referred to as "thou shalt not lie" in modern days by the kind of people who are proponents of the 10 commandments.

Another interesting thing about the 10 commandments is they don't really hold the same kind of special place in Judaism that they do in evangelical Christianity. For Judaism the 10 commandments are just a small section of the law that's some what notable for how they were delivered. They would never consider the 10 commandments to be all you needed for morality.
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Caithness

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #204 on: November 03, 2011, 06:44:05 AM »

Mormon tradition holds that the tablets that Moses broke when he was so upset at seeing the people make sacrifices to a golden calf contained the fulness of the law, or the higher law that Jesus taught. The Ten Commandments were a substitute law, one so simple that spiritual babies could understand it.
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Büge

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #205 on: November 03, 2011, 06:51:27 AM »

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Mongrel

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #206 on: November 03, 2011, 01:52:15 PM »

Dammit Buge!

Well, maybe it'll make Gaston go away. For a little while.
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sei

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #207 on: November 04, 2011, 10:03:40 AM »

4 of the commandments are pretty much strictly required for a functioning society (murder, theft, lying, and adultery)
Adultery doesn't need its own spot. It falls under general oath-breaking/cheating, which is probably covered under "not lying." Same goes for bearing false witness, which you didn't mention.
Oathbreaking/cheating weren't prohibited by any of the 10 commandments, unless you mean cheating in the sexual sense in which case I'm not really clear how you're separating that from adultery. It is notable that adultery deserved it's own spot at the time because of how property and inheritance were dealt with. In modern society though, you're right it could probably just be put under not lying. And the lying commandment I was referring to was "though shalt not bear false witness." Again I'm not really clear on how you're separating the two. "Though shalt not bear false witness" did technically refer to lying in court originally, but it's generally interpreted as and referred to as "thou shalt not lie" in modern days by the kind of people who are proponents of the 10 commandments.

Another interesting thing about the 10 commandments is they don't really hold the same kind of special place in Judaism that they do in evangelical Christianity. For Judaism the 10 commandments are just a small section of the law that's some what notable for how they were delivered. They would never consider the 10 commandments to be all you needed for morality.
I mean that if a new commandment says "don't lie," that cheating (general, but inclusive of sexual) and oath-breaking are covered by it. If a marital/coupling/whatever oath says "I won't plumb other holes," then doing so violates the no lying commandment, and thus we shouldn't need to waste space with "don't cheat (specifically sexually)."
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Brentai

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #208 on: November 04, 2011, 10:37:58 AM »

I think the original commandment as meant to specifically ban marriages in which the no-swingin' oath was omitted.
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Catloaf

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #209 on: November 06, 2011, 08:33:36 AM »

Mormon tradition holds that the tablets that Moses broke when he was so upset at seeing the people make sacrifices to a golden calf contained the fulness of the law, or the higher law that Jesus taught. The Ten Commandments were a substitute law

I thought that was actually all Christianity and Judaism (and probably Islam too).  It's just ignored, like most of what the bible/torah/quran literally says.

Moses spends a fucking month all alone atop mt. Sinai, comes back, looses his shit, breaks the totally awesome and perfect tablets of law*, and then later comes up with the ten commandments off the top of his head.  It's a fucking metaphor for mankind never knowing the true nature of god, or what is truly what god wants of us.  Which is rather inconvenient for established religious institutions and that's why they act like the ten commandments are what Moses originally came down with, which they aren't.

*Which were said to be fucking magic, in that while they were carved all the way through the tablets, one could read them forwards on either side.
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Royal☭

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #210 on: November 06, 2011, 08:46:15 AM »

Am I the only one that notices that Moses rambles off more than 10 laws, though?

Kashan

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #211 on: November 06, 2011, 09:06:58 AM »

Am I the only one that notices that Moses rambles off more than 10 laws, though?

Not really. Like I said the Jews hold the 10 commandments as just part of the law. Also of note, there are more than 10 imperative statements in the 10 commandments. Also the two places where the 10 commandments are listed are actually completely separate from the the story of the 10 commandments in terms of the tablets, and the story that does refer to the tablets actually has an entirely different set of imperative statements. You can see the 2 versions of the 10 commandments and the version that people usually ignore which is actually present in the story of the tablets here.


Mormon tradition holds that the tablets that Moses broke when he was so upset at seeing the people make sacrifices to a golden calf contained the fulness of the law, or the higher law that Jesus taught. The Ten Commandments were a substitute law

I thought that was actually all Christianity and Judaism (and probably Islam too).  It's just ignored, like most of what the bible/torah/quran literally says.

Moses spends a fucking month all alone atop mt. Sinai, comes back, looses his shit, breaks the totally awesome and perfect tablets of law*, and then later comes up with the ten commandments off the top of his head.  It's a fucking metaphor for mankind never knowing the true nature of god, or what is truly what god wants of us.  Which is rather inconvenient for established religious institutions and that's why they act like the ten commandments are what Moses originally came down with, which they aren't.

*Which were said to be fucking magic, in that while they were carved all the way through the tablets, one could read them forwards on either side.
Definitely not all of Christianity. I wouldn't be surprised if it's only Mormon tradition.
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Brentai

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #212 on: November 06, 2011, 09:56:57 AM »

Moses goes up to Sinai with Joshua, comes back with some tablets, breaks the original tablets, and then goes off by himself so God can re-dictate the laws to him onto new tablets.

If you take the Bible to be largely a recorded history of shysters, then it's likely that Moses and Joshua (his main rival for tribal leadership) went up and hashed out a compromise set of laws together, and then when they got back Moses was all like "WHOOPS THERE GO THOSE TABLETS I'D BETTER GO GET DICTION FROM GOD AGAIN OH NO I DON'T NEED YOU TO COME JOSHUA THANKS".

Politics.  Politics never change.

Anyway the whole situation is important to the Mormons because they maintain that the original, untampered law is what is recorded in the Book of Mormon, as translated from a set of 1400-year-old Egyptian plates that Joseph Smith found in his backyard in New York.
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sei

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #213 on: November 06, 2011, 12:10:58 PM »

Mormon tradition holds that the tablets that Moses broke when he was so upset at seeing the people make sacrifices to a golden calf contained the fulness of the law, or the higher law that Jesus taught. The Ten Commandments were a substitute law

I thought that was actually all Christianity and Judaism (and probably Islam too).  It's just ignored, like most of what the bible/torah/quran literally says.

Moses spends a fucking month all alone atop mt. Sinai, comes back, looses his shit, breaks the totally awesome and perfect tablets of law*, and then later comes up with the ten commandments off the top of his head.  It's a fucking metaphor for mankind never knowing the true nature of god, or what is truly what god wants of us.  Which is rather inconvenient for established religious institutions and that's why they act like the ten commandments are what Moses originally came down with, which they aren't.

*Which were said to be fucking magic, in that while they were carved all the way through the tablets, one could read them forwards on either side.


I think someone's dodging the question.
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Büge

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #214 on: April 20, 2012, 08:40:24 AM »

The Vatican is ordering disciplinary action against American nuns because they're too lenient on gay rights, women's issues and abortion.
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Shinra

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #215 on: April 20, 2012, 09:15:17 AM »

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Büge

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #216 on: December 19, 2012, 10:17:49 PM »

Extra Credits sometimes have thoughtful and well-researched discussions on subjects but this week's offering really soured me on them. That is, the second part of their two-part series on Religion in Games.

Right around 1:40, he makes the assertion that "all reason is based on faith". Which says to me that he really, really didn't do the research. I suggest you watch it if you want to see a guy building a house on sand.

I also take exception to claiming that games with faith as a theme don't exist. Morrowind has faith as a theme. Planescape: Torment has faith as a theme. Those aren't obscure games in the slightest and it speaks to the level of effort they put into this that they passed over those two.  It's a shame that the Extra Credit people went with such a pat thesis, since the topic is something that should be talked about.
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Thad

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #217 on: December 19, 2012, 10:54:05 PM »

Hell, at least as far back as Act Raiser.

Even something like Final Fantasy Tactics, which relies on a pretty searing depiction of the Catholic Church and even has its Christ figure turn out to be a demon, depicts people of genuine faith as heroic (even if they have a tendency to become damsels in distress and get taken advantage of and/or stabbed).  Xenogears...well, nearly everything I just said applies there, too.  Truly the PS1 era is the era of the self-important, navel-gazing JRPG.

Final Fantasy 10 is about the clash between faith-as-in-dogma and faith in a better way.

The Metroid series is messianic -- this isn't actually spelled out in-game until Metroid Prime, but Samus as Chosen One has been part of the ancillary material at least as far back as that Super Metroid comic in Nintendo Power, and from the very first the games have that whiff of ancient ruins with totems and artifacts of power.

Ecco the Dolphin is chock-full of mysticism and mythology, even if it does sort of go off the rails once the aliens start to show up.

Dragon Quest 7 -- ooh, that's a big one, and an incredibly literal one.  The whole world fades out of existence even as belief in God fades; as the heroes travel through time they recover history, religion, and all the missing continents that vanished from the world.  Then God shows up to thank them all, 'cept it's not God at all, it's the devil in disguise come to plunge the world back into chaos.  Then you fight him, save the world, and if you play the postgame you can fight the real God and he really kicks the hell out of you using smiles and tickle power and that's where I quit playing.



And then there's whatever the fuck's going on here:

Exodus: Journey to the Promised Land Game Sample - Genesis/MD (Unlicensed)
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Healy

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #218 on: December 20, 2012, 01:46:12 AM »

Man I thought that was going to be a video for that one game on the NES about the demon that is also a Christian apparently and is powered-up by crosses (and ice cream cones!) Not sure if that is germane to this discussion.

Also, if we want to go even earlier, there was Ultima: Quest for the Avatar. Granted, it dealt with religion rather generically, but the next game in the series dealt with religious extremism (and the game after that religious tolerance).

Also, if we're including text adventures in this discussion (and we should) there have been plenty of games that have dealt with faith in one way or another. Vespers is a Christian themed horror game that deals with themes of whether God is just (albeit superficially, or so I hear). Unraveling God is uh apparently about religion vs. science? Voices is a game about Joan of Arc. I've never played any of these games.

Moving on, last year's IF Comp had Tenth Plague and Cana According to Micah, which are like complete opposites in nearly every way, to the point where it kinda blew my mind that they were released in the same Comp without causing some kind of antimatter-esque explosion. Tenth Plague, of course being the Old Testament game, takes a rather negative view of God, religion, and divine judgment; meanwhile Cana is one of the most humane games I've ever played. This year's howling dogs contained an extended Joan of Arc segment, which Emily Short wrote a little about here. I also have to mention Sunday Afternoon, which isn't really about religion, per se (despite having the "translator" of Cana as an NPC), but contains my favorite bit of writing about religion ever:
Quote from: Sunday Afternoon
>X STEPHEN
Barchester is crawling with clergymen, and Uncle Stephen is another one of them. He's one of the super High Church types who might as well be Catholic, or at least that's what Father says. From what you've seen, that means that the services are more fun but the clergymen are stuffier. No-one is stuffier than Uncle Stephen; if he were in charge of the cathedral, there would probably be clowns.
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Kayin

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Re: Religulous
« Reply #219 on: December 20, 2012, 02:47:53 AM »

If was the guy who paid for that episode, I'd want my money back. On the other hand, if I was the guy who won the auction and they said "yeah uh religion uhm we haven't done that because we haven't found enough good stuff to talk about" I'd PROBABLY believe them and pick a new topic.

But yeah, that sorta blew it and missed a number of examples and sorta spent two episodes talking about nothing. Extra Credits is kinda always hit or miss though. I'd probably have ran out of things to say long before they have.
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