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Author Topic: GOP Will Eat Itself  (Read 44448 times)

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Thad

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #160 on: November 18, 2008, 10:41:44 AM »

Willis links How Obama Got Elected, a right-wing video pushing the notion that Obama only won because the media is liberal and voters are dumb.

This is another one of those "We only failed because we weren't nasty ENOUGH" things.  Again, if this becomes CW, the party will continue to fail.
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Romosome

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #161 on: November 18, 2008, 03:08:46 PM »

I'm only going to support the gay fascists if they use your avatar as their symbol, Nor.
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Norondor

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #162 on: November 18, 2008, 05:31:33 PM »

please donate to the cause with all the generosity in your heart
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Arc

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #163 on: November 18, 2008, 05:52:57 PM »

Willis links How Obama Got Elected

Nate Silver just posted his interview with John Ziegler, the site's founder. Turns nasty quite quickly.
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Thad

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #164 on: November 18, 2008, 06:56:21 PM »

Quote
Nate Silver [NS]: Were only Obama supporters interviewed for the [Zogby] survey, or was everyone interviewed?

John Ziegler [JZ]: The reason why I interviewed Obama supporters only is because Iím doing a documentary on the media coverage of the campaign and how the media coverage of the campaign impacted what Obama supporters knew or thought they knew about the campaign.

Aha, so right off the bat he admits to having no control group.  And pulls the old "If you want to argue with me you're going to have to conduct your own survey, at your own expense."  Shades of Guild.

And then of course there's the fact that Zogby polls are notoriously unreliable anyway.

Quote
I had a person who was working with me who happens to be a black female since you seem to think Iím a racist

...My Republican grandmother once told me that Evan Mecham, the governor famous for opposing the Martin Luther King, Jr. holiday, wasn't really racist because he employed black people.

Quote
NS: What types of media would you consider credible?
JZ: I think you need a variety of sources, but I do not accept the notion that if it's not in the New York Times it's not true and if it is in the New York Times it is. Just because Sean Hannity says something doesn't mean itís not true.

:strawman:

Aaaand it deteriorates from there.
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Romosome

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #165 on: November 18, 2008, 07:00:09 PM »

how can you possibly refute the fact that being in physical proximity to a minority at some point in your life PROVES you are incapable of a racist thought, Thad

I'm waiting
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JDigital

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #166 on: November 19, 2008, 02:12:42 AM »

I'm fed up with this "liberal media" line. Baww, we can't be wrong - the TV must be lying to us! And the newspapers. Except when they aren't.
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Bal

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #167 on: November 19, 2008, 03:17:47 AM »

Quote
[Opinion that differs from my own]

That damn media, misleading the public that way!

[Opinion similar to my own]

Finally! Someone who tells it like it is!

All sides are guilty of this.
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Thad

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #168 on: November 19, 2008, 10:10:50 AM »

But the news is supposed to present fact, not opinion.
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Royal☭

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #169 on: November 19, 2008, 10:21:49 AM »

Why must the facts hate America?

FranÁois

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #170 on: November 19, 2008, 10:24:42 AM »

True. Real news are not things anyone can sensibly disagree with, any more than you can disagree that water is wet or that the sun is hot.

(Cue Guild saying that the sun is actually rather cool and that it's the friction of its rays against space particles that makes it seem hot.)
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Classic

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #171 on: November 19, 2008, 10:36:51 AM »

I don't want Guild to be discussing his "hot thin rubber" theory.
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Romosome

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #172 on: November 19, 2008, 12:52:02 PM »

The problem is that at some point it was decided people want Analysis in their news, so it's no longer acceptable to just report something, they have to have some fucking windbag babble on about what they think about it.  Then they will sometimes get two windbags to argue about it loudly.

It's 99 percent drivel, and is primarily there for sheer visceral entertainment.
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The Artist Formerly Known As Yoji

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #173 on: November 19, 2008, 12:55:06 PM »

...My Republican grandmother once told me that Evan Mecham, the governor famous for opposing the Martin Luther King, Jr. holiday, wasn't really racist because he employed black people.

...

Quote from: Wiki
"I've got black friends. I employ black people. I don't employ them because they are black; I employ them because they are the best people who applied for the cotton-picking job."[26]

...did he say what I think he said? Please tell me I had too many beans in my ears.
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Brentai

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #174 on: November 19, 2008, 12:57:09 PM »

That's Southern for "fucking", but yeah, really poor word choice.  Or proper word choice, given the speaker's general disposition.
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Romosome

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #175 on: November 19, 2008, 12:59:13 PM »

oh man.  I totally missed that.

I know it's lost this usage in modern times thanks to modern folk only being familiar with it through colorful redneck cartoon stereotypes like Yosemite Sam, but three guesses as to how it became an epithet in the first place, folks.
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Thad

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #176 on: November 21, 2008, 11:30:29 AM »

More from Silver: he suggests Ziegler's meltdown was due to his background as a talk radio host.  He notes that being a radio host requires you to grab the attention of people who are multitasking, all based entirely on the sound of your voice, and that shouting and smugness do a much better job of this than reasoned debate.

He further suggests that this is the basis for the current GOP bubble; from talk radio to its visual equivalent on Fox News, they've drank the Kool-Aid and are no longer living on the same plane of existence as the rest of us.  (Of course, their victory in '04 and "victory" in '00 reinforced their worldview.)  Ziegler's reaction on being challenged isn't to defend his positions rationally, it's to wave his arms and claim they're indisputable common knowledge, and then to tell his interviewer to go fuck himself.  But Silver suggests it's a lot bigger than Ziegler, and that you can see this sort of thinking in McCain's failure of a campaign strategy.

Related: PZ Myers at ScienceBlogs (the same guy I linked observing Palin mocking science) notes an op-ed in the WSJ that says,

Quote
Banish Merry Christmas. Get ready for Mad Max.

Apparently the guy didn't get the memo that even Bill O'Reilly gave up on the "war on Christmas" nonsense.
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Brentai

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #177 on: November 21, 2008, 11:57:58 AM »

The GOP was really rather good at dominating the political landscape when it was all about the advertising.  In the 80s and 90s (and probably the 60s and 70s too) the only way you could get your message across was to be the person with the most money to bid on airtime.  Now any little shit with a webcam can do it almost as effectively, and it's changing the message.

Which is not to say the Dems are an unstoppable force now.  Playing against the interests of the people with money hurt them for sure, but the real problem is and has always been the ivory tower attitude.  They are "above" doing the sort of base attention-getting described above, and that's going to come back and bite them in the ass again if they're not careful, because cheap tricks work just as well on the internet as anywhere else.  Obama's like this too, but he manages to do well for himself by being exceptionally better than the opposition at what he does and taking full advantage of the fact that they haven't caught up with the changing landscape yet.  But you can only shrug off so many low blows; eventually he and the rest of the party are going to have to learn to play the same game.  Clinton could, and for the most part he could handle it; he fell off the slippery slope more often than anybody's comfortable with, but on the whole I think we're still better off for it.
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Thad

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #178 on: November 21, 2008, 12:55:25 PM »

See, people -- myself included -- have been saying that for the past year, and Obama's done just fine staying above the fray.  At this point I have to assume he knows what he's doing.

The GOP's lack of understanding on new media is only part of why it failed.  I think it did a great job of running a smear campaign -- everybody knows about Ayers and ACORN, and a whole lot of people still think Obama is a secret Muslim --, the problem is that campaigns like that don't work in the middle of an economic crisis.  Manufactured controversies CAN be made to overshadow real controversies -- they did in '04 -- but it's a lot harder when your opponent is savvy and on-message and the crisis is hitting people hard right now.

I don't know what the landscape's going to look like in 4 years.  My hunch is Obama won't be as popular as he is now but will still be a popular President, and the Republicans won't be able to produce a competent challenger.  In a situation like that, there's no reason to go negative, except to do what Obama did this time: point out that his opponent is talking about bullshit when there are real problems to worry about.
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Thad

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Re: GOP Will Eat Itself
« Reply #179 on: November 22, 2008, 02:59:19 PM »

...You know, I remember the phrase "Newt's lesbian sister" from Rent, but I always thought it was a joke.
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