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Author Topic: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design  (Read 55708 times)

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Brentai

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #500 on: August 10, 2011, 10:27:58 AM »

If it was properly implemented then XInput shouldn't have a problem with any popular modern PC pad.  Your issue probably has more to do with Games for Windows Live, which is a nightmare for user interfaces in general.
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Brentai

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #501 on: August 10, 2011, 10:29:05 AM »

If it was properly implemented then XInput shouldn't have a problem with any popular modern PC pad.  Your issue probably has more to do with Games for Windows, which is a nightmare for user interfaces in general.
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Bal

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #502 on: August 10, 2011, 11:42:36 AM »

I've configured pads from button mapping to advanced emulator plug-in configuration. Taking a recent example, I was playing the Sands of Time trilogy of games on PC. They have pad support, but predate the 360 pad ubiquity in console ports, so I had to map everything out. This, like in most games where I have done this, gave me functional but limited control compared to, say, Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood, which immediately recognizes a 360 pad, and is able to be controlled identically to the console version of the game.

I've never felt any inclination to use a pad in a non-console port on my PC, so I don't know if there's some special love for DirectInput in some genre I don't know about other than console games where a pad is superior to mouse and keyboard.

Also I'm obviously using Windows, which (Vista and beyond) has native drivers for Xinput. Making it totally plug and play for either a wired controller or a wireless controller using the receiver. I don't know what, if anything, we're arguing about. XInput doesn't stop me from remapping controls, though some games do, and I simply appreciate being able to play ports of console games, made to look much better on my PC, with controls that reflect the console version perfectly. Not to mention that the 360 is pad is actually a pretty damn good pad.
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Ziiro

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #503 on: August 10, 2011, 11:51:20 AM »

If I'm reading this correctly: He's just madfrustrated the piece of shit controller be bought isn't as easily read/as easy to program for as the first party Microsoft controller for Microsoft systems using an API created by Microsoft. I think.

I can see where you're coming from and I disagree. Why should they have to go back and make it work for your controller? Why doesn't logitech hack it to make it read as an Xinput after you install some drivers?
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patito

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #504 on: August 10, 2011, 11:59:34 AM »

x360ce is the hack that makes direcinput devices work with xinput. The problem I've come across is games that support only xinput as a controller device, Red Faction: Guerrilla and Just Cause 2 come to mind, because I like my ps2 controller way better than the 360 controller. The first assasin's creed supported both things so that was perfectly acceptable.
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Thad

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #505 on: August 10, 2011, 12:41:51 PM »

If it was properly implemented then XInput shouldn't have a problem with any popular modern PC pad.  Your issue probably has more to do with Games for Windows Live, which is a nightmare for user interfaces in general.

Fair enough.  I don't use Live but yeah, it does appear that it's GFW that's imposing the "Xbox controllers only" mandate.

I've never felt any inclination to use a pad in a non-console port on my PC, so I don't know if there's some special love for DirectInput in some genre I don't know about other than console games where a pad is superior to mouse and keyboard.

I'm not precisely sure what the genre or port status has to do with it.  If a game works with an Xbox controller there's no good reason it shouldn't work with a Rumblepad 2.

Also I'm obviously using Windows, which (Vista and beyond) has native drivers for Xinput. Making it totally plug and play for either a wired controller or a wireless controller using the receiver.

Uh, yeah, so are DirectInput-compatible controllers.

I don't know what, if anything, we're arguing about. XInput doesn't stop me from remapping controls, though some games do, and I simply appreciate being able to play ports of console games, made to look much better on my PC, with controls that reflect the console version perfectly. Not to mention that the 360 is pad is actually a pretty damn good pad.

The problem is that it supports a tiny fraction of the controllers on the market.  And that there's no technical reason this should be the case.

If I'm reading this correctly: He's just madfrustrated the piece of shit controller be bought

Cute.

Here is a link to Google.  It is a search engine.  See what happens when you plug the phrase "rumblepad 2 reviews" into it.

Yes, what a rube I am; I bought the highest-rated controller on the market instead of another, more expensive controller for a video game console that I do not own, and did not foresee Microsoft deliberately breaking compatibility with all its competitors' products.

...actually, that last part DOES sound kinda stupid on my part.  I'll give you that one.

isn't as easily read/as easy to program for as the first party Microsoft controller for Microsoft systems using an API created by Microsoft. I think.

...you can't possibly be arguing that users should expect only Microsoft hardware to work correctly with Windows.

...and incidentally, DirectInput is also an API created by Microsoft.

I can see where you're coming from and I disagree. Why should they have to go back and make it work for your controller?

Because when you sell the operating system that runs on 90% of the world's computers, you can't go around fucking breaking compatibility with competitors' products.  There have been multiple court rulings verifying this fact, both in America and overseas.

Why doesn't logitech hack it to make it read as an Xinput after you install some drivers?

Presumably because Logitech would be just as happy with me buying a new controller from them as MS would be with me buying a new one from them.
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Ziiro

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #506 on: August 10, 2011, 12:50:57 PM »

Quote
...you can't possibly be arguing that users should expect only Microsoft hardware to work correctly with Windows.

You're right. Windows Hardware doesn't work correctly with Windows software all the time, either.  :whoops:

Quote
Because when you sell the operating system that runs on 90% of the world's computers, you can't go around fucking breaking compatibility with competitors' products

I think the arguable part here is "Breaking compatibility." It's not like the controller isn't working with windows at all or is purposefully sabotaged. It's that the Xinput API is something that they've picked up and are only putting on their own controller.

Quote
Presumably because Logitech would be just as happy with me buying a new controller from them as MS would be with me buying a new one from them.

Actually Logitech has great customer service and a pretty good image in that regard. They'll replace things that are out of warranty or broken if you ask nicely.. I'd actually say just shoot them an email and see what they think of including something for Xinput for future controller releases.
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Bal

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #507 on: August 10, 2011, 12:59:45 PM »

My position has never been that it shouldn't work with your pad, only that I appreciate the ease of use and reliability I've experienced with my 360 pad on my PC, and that that experience is the better experience of those currently available with regards to gamepads on PC. Xinput is good for me, because I use the right pad.
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François

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #508 on: August 10, 2011, 01:37:00 PM »

My position has never been that it shouldn't work with your pad, only that I appreciate the ease of use and reliability I've experienced with my 360 pad on my PC, and that that experience is the better experience of those currently available with regards to gamepads on PC.

I've had ease of use and reliability for years with my PS2 controller via a 2$ USB adaptor from Hong Kong, on everything I cared to play without exception. Now whenever I play a PC game that expects an Xbox 360 controller, the right stick's horizontal and vertical axes are switched. There's just no excuse for that. Your experience is only the better experience because MS took a giant shit on mine.

Xinput is good for me, because I use the right pad.

Trying really hard not to make a Nazi Germany crack here.

...

well of course the reich is good for aryans, they're the right race

Dang it!
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Thad

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #509 on: August 10, 2011, 01:48:52 PM »

I think the arguable part here is "Breaking compatibility." It's not like the controller isn't working with windows at all or is purposefully sabotaged. It's that the Xinput API is something that they've picked up and are only putting on their own controller.

Well, if you want to take a strict definition of "breaking compatibility" that's true, but this is a clearer case than the ones where they've actually been CONVICTED of antitrust violations (IE, as well as WMP in the EU).  Bundling IE and WMP with Windows doesn't prevent anybody from running a different browser or media player in a TECHNICAL sense, but it sure makes it a lot less likely that most people will.

And this is actually a case where MS is pushing a gaming platform that DELIBERATELY does not support any interface but its own, resulting in new games being incompatible with old controllers.  That, to my mind, goes a lot farther than simply demanding OEM's put an IE shortcut on the desktop; it's just that it affects a much smaller market.

And I absolutely disagree with your assertion that MS is not engaging in deliberate sabotage of its competition.

Quote
Presumably because Logitech would be just as happy with me buying a new controller from them as MS would be with me buying a new one from them.

Actually Logitech has great customer service and a pretty good image in that regard. They'll replace things that are out of warranty or broken if you ask nicely.. I'd actually say just shoot them an email and see what they think of including something for Xinput for future controller releases.

Couldn't hurt.  x360ce is a neat little program but you have to copy the executable into the directory of every game you want to use it with.  And in my experience it only works when run as admin.

My position has never been that it shouldn't work with your pad, only that I appreciate the ease of use and reliability I've experienced with my 360 pad on my PC, and that that experience is the better experience of those currently available with regards to gamepads on PC. Xinput is good for me, because I use the right pad.

But there's no reason my pad should be the "wrong" one!  Two sticks, a D-pad, four face buttons, four shoulder buttons...it's effectively the same damn pad!
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Bal

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #510 on: August 10, 2011, 01:53:05 PM »

I still don't know why you're coming to me about it. Like I said, your pad should work, and there shouldn't be a "right" pad, but there is, and I own it. The way it functions makes me happy. There's no argument here, and there never was.
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Brentai

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #511 on: August 10, 2011, 01:56:00 PM »

I bought the highest-rated controller on the market instead of another, more expensive controller for a video game console that I do not own, and did not foresee Microsoft deliberately breaking compatibility with all its competitors' products.

...actually, that last part DOES sound kinda stupid on my part.  I'll give you that one.

isn't as easily read/as easy to program for as the first party Microsoft controller for Microsoft systems using an API created by Microsoft. I think.

...you can't possibly be arguing that users should expect only Microsoft hardware to work correctly with Windows.

The hilarious part is just how many times he'll try to run after that ball.
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Ziiro

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #512 on: August 10, 2011, 02:09:29 PM »

Goddamnit, Bal. Get that Microsoft dick out of your throat already. I can't even hear your endlessly undeserved praise of the Official Xbox Controller™ over the noise of the sucking anymore.
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Brentai

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #513 on: August 10, 2011, 02:14:54 PM »

Tbf anybody who owns an Xbox 360 has a compatible controller.
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Ziiro

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #514 on: August 10, 2011, 02:20:08 PM »

Actually it's kind of stupid: I can't make my numbers of Xbox controllers work with my PC Unless I buy the $30 adapter. The Play and charge kit (Which I have one for each of my 4 controllers) actually doesn't establish a data connection through USB, which is completely fucked.

Wired controllers are 100% plug and play, at least.
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Bal

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #515 on: August 10, 2011, 02:22:43 PM »

PS3 controller has the same issue RE: usb charger cord. It's pretty lame.
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Brentai

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #516 on: August 10, 2011, 02:25:35 PM »

I've gotten my PS3 controller to work via a third-party driver, but PS3-compatible controllers (namely, the FightStick) seem to work out of the box.
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Disposable Ninja

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #517 on: August 10, 2011, 03:24:39 PM »

Unless I buy the $30 adapter.

I have one of those. I bought it for, like, half that at Best Buy.

That said, it seems to have stopped working.

So I'm not happy about that.
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Dooly

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #518 on: August 10, 2011, 05:01:37 PM »

An old Xbox controller with XBCD works pretty fantastically for me.
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patito

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #519 on: August 10, 2011, 05:13:42 PM »

The truth is that the xbox 360 controller kind of sucks guys, and as primarily pc gamers as we are we shouldn't settle for that.
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