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[AČ]

I have an intelligent response thought up against Guild's 'argument' of letting Bush go free, but then I remind myself that Guild isn't being serious and is basically doing what Brentai said.

Someone else make it so I can do it!

So perk up your damn ears, WFE, because I've got a bunch of HAET to let out and you do not want to be the person I let it out on.

....
....
DUKE, FRIDAY, RUN.

[Alex]

But isn't the notion of forgiving and forgetting also enabling him in the fact that he basically got away with it with a slap on the wrist at worst?

[AČ]

I would wager that those who scream for "Forgive and forget" where not the ones who were harmed (either via hate crimes, losing loved ones in the war, etc) by Bush's actions.

Those people are, understandably, calling for biblical Eye For An Eye justice.

[Brentai]

Er, most of us are in the forgive and forget camp.  Or at least, the forget camp.  If you actually read the original thread, it seems that even Thad agrees that putting too much effort into exacting petty justice would be a waste of time.

Of course, that's not exactly the opinion Guild originally stated.

Bush should be exonerated of all charges, and publicly so, by Obama and the Supreme Court both.

[Royal☭]

I guess I'm crazy in thinking that just because someone is elected as leader doesn't mean they have carte blanch to go fucking nuts with the country.  When the people elect a president, it's because they believe he will do good.  If he just ends up being a lame duck, that's fine.  If he tries to overturn the rule of law and route the constitution, that is unacceptable.

Punishing Bush would be punishing ignorance, which is always a bad idea.

First off, Bush is not ignorant.  We may all view him as a dumbass around these parts, but he knew what he was doing every step of the way.  He allowed his cronies to run amok of the administration and approved the War on Iraq, approved de-regulation, approved torture, and did nothing to actually make the country secure.  He had an agenda of benefiting those at the top, and he attempted the great swindle.  So don't feed me this "Bush was ignorant" bullshit.

Secondly, if Bush were ignorant, it's still a big deal.  He's not a toddler, he's the leader of our country.  As such, the person filling the position should be expected to learn about the shit he's talking about.  Ignorance is not an excuse for the most powerful man in the country.


There, I've taken you seriously.  Feel free to berate me or pretend I'm treating you poorly.

[Detonator]

Did I just split a thread out of Jail and into Real World?

[SCD]

While this thread may be split, I have something to contribute to this conversation for both the Guild-bashing (albiet, for decent reason) and Guild Crowds

[Mongrel]

Again, my issue is that if he's punished NOW it only highlights how broken the checks and balances have become, emphasising that a sitting President can never be touched. In fact it's possible it will reinforce the (gravely mistaken) impression that Congress has no sway over an El Presidente.

You know what happens in countries where the rulers can only be punished for crimes once they release their iron grip on power?

If you want to get into that debate, then fine. Just recognise that that's what is in order. If your system of government is that degraded, a serious national discussion may well be in order. But I don't think that any discussion of Bush's crimes will actually BE a serious national discussion regarding the state of the US government. I think it will descend into partisan bickering and that any real rot at the core will be obscured. 

[Mongrel]

While this thread may be split, I have something to contribute to this conversation for both the Guild-bashing (albiet, for decent reason) and Guild Crowds

Also, yes, that was an awesome post. 

[Mongrel]

Triple post, sorry.

It's dirty as fuck (in a way), but my best hope is that to the general public, Obama remains apparently untainted and leads by example. If that means pulling a Ford by glossing over the whole thing then so be it. We've all been bathing in the latrine trench for so long that people need to be reminded of what conscience and justice LOOK LIKE before we go all out staking out the moral high ground.

Sure, if you're an absolute moralist, it's all so much fake bullshit. Allowing a crime is morally the same as aiding it, etc. etc. But I've always been rather big on results over rhetoric.

[Brentai]

My bet is on him setting up an investigation committee which will not go anywhere, will not be pursued, and eventually will be quietly disbanded.  This is actually the best scenario IMO.  It at least says that we acknowledge that such an investigation is called for, but at the same time that our heads are not so far up our asses that we fail to fix the problem while trying to figure out who to blame for it.  Or in other words: if somebody does go on trial, it had better well be after Guantanamo has been shut down.

[AČ]

I'd be happy with an extremely large monetary fine. Like, enough to make the oil companies say ouch.

Send the money to the families of the dead soldiers.

[Thad]

But isn't the notion of forgiving and forgetting also enabling him in the fact that he basically got away with it with a slap on the wrist at worst?

Bush is not the issue here; he's not in charge anymore and he's not going to do any more direct damage.

The problem is the future.  As I said, Nixon went down but not hard enough to stop his flunkies from coming back to finish what he started.  No, Cheney and Rumsfeld won't be coming back this time, but there are plenty of other neocons to go around -- Kristol, Wolfowitz, Frum, Bolton are all young enough to come back to haunt us.

...There's more but my roommate is just walking in the door after a two-week trip to Europe.  Back later.

[Mongrel]

Hm. Do you think Wolfy will come out of his little World Bank sojourn with any kind of political future? While I could see him making a comeback, I really don't see him getting any higher than he has in the past.

Of course, that's bad enough I suppose.

[Thad]

Right.  He's not going to be holding any elected offices, but a similar role to the one he played in the buildup to the Iraq war is a possibility.

[Thad]

Newsweek has a piece on possible investigations into torture.  Basically it boils down to doing something like what the 9/11 Commission did.  It means basically letting the Administration off the hook, but ideally determining everything they've done.  That's probably the best compromise we're going to get.

[Thad]

Nobody should be prosecuted, according to one of the people who should probably be prosecuted.

[Sharkey]

what's the word I'm looking for in Jefferson's case?  Opposite of "corruption".

Antonyms:
honor
decency
truthfulness
Optimus Prime

[Brentai]

honor
decency
truthfulness
Liberty Prime

Communism is synonymous with failure.

[Romosome]

Nobody should be prosecuted, according to one of the people who should probably be prosecuted.

Bill Kristol says Bush should pardon all the CIA operatives that tortured prisoners, and give them the Medal of Honor.