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Author Topic: Health Care Reform  (Read 24683 times)

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Pacobird

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2009, 12:29:00 PM »

man dirtbike if only there were these things called research centers
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Royal☭

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2009, 02:57:46 PM »

That said, I still feel like I know almost nothing about this bill as commercials I have seen for or against it appeal more to the heart with emotions ("They are gonna kill my grandma by making her wait in line!", "I think I saw a swastika!", etc) than to logic with the facts (such as having a townhall with a bunch of economists and doctors who can clearly explain exactly how this will effect every aspect of healthcare and the economy in heavily cited and fact based terms).

You don't get it.  Logic is the problem.  "They're going to kill my grandma" will hook more people than "We'll increase covered by 14%!".    In order for progressives to get what we want through Congress, we need to focus on higher rhetoric than just logic.


Also we pretty much just need to nuke the senate, or the filibuster at least.

PhilosopherDirtbike

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2009, 04:12:52 PM »

Noronder: That line seems familiar from somewhere. Is it quoted from something or is it original?

P. Birdy: I know there are plenty of experts and research being done and uploaded all over the web, but with so much dirty money floating around and so much mudslinging it is hard to tell whose facts I should be buying. I guess I should have emphasized the neutral part when I mentioned the panel of neutral experts to explain the pros and cons of the whole thing.

Constantine: Well, you got me there. Thinking about it that way, emotion does tend to ellicit a stronger response than a bunch of cold, soulless fact shitting and numbers do. In addition to that, I suppose emotion is a universal language that transcends IQ. Something that everyone can understand.

Still, feels manipulative to me, though in that regard it is a logical tactic.

I think I should point out, I am all for the reform as I can't get insurance due to having to go to counseling earlier in my life and a family history of mental problems. I just feel like there has to be a way to sell it a little better. I am not in politics or sales though, so in hindsight I am probably the last person who should have a say in how to go about any of this.  :nyoro~n:
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The Artist Formerly Known As Yoji

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2009, 04:27:25 PM »

Agreed with Constantine and Phil. You don't need to be smart to be hysterical. At that point, any reassuring facts are pearls before swine.

And while I'm at it, wasn't it the bloody wolf-slayer and Goddess of the Hunt Sarah Palin that coined the term "death panel" in the first place?
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Catloaf

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2009, 07:15:47 PM »

Karma+ to Disposable Ninja & Norondor
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SCD

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2009, 07:34:46 PM »

One thought:  obama's point about a centralized site where people can pick and choose from a selection of healthcare insurance options seems like an intelligent idea,

and not hard to implement if you knew anything about databases, spreadsheets and search engines. 
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Brentai

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2009, 08:06:07 PM »

That's kinda... eHealthInsurance, but obviously I guess Obama's talking about one that doesn't have sponsors and contracts and such.
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Transportation

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2009, 03:57:44 PM »

That'd never happen, even WITHOUT the democrat-esque tendency towards self-sabotage.

I mean, throughout the last eight years, we've had 9/11, Katrina, skyrocketing gas prices, a horribly mismanaged economy that led to the worst recession since the Great Depression, two mismanaged wars, and the Vice President shooting a man in the face. By the end of Clinton's administration, gas prices were low enough that Hummers were considered "cheap", we had a great big surplus, and everyone was genuinely pretty happy. Clinton got impeached, the worst Bush got were a pair wingtips.

Clinton wasn't actually impeached, enjoyed decent popularity, and the whole thing was shown as an idiot parade when the Dems made gains in the Senate and the next presidentialial election was a coin flip despite the most boring man in the world, and a former vice president at that, running (this is important from a statistical perspective).

If you are referring to his legislative failures, then sure. Bush rode on a tide of artificial paranoia and authoritarianism not seen since Wilson, so I'm not really surprised he got away with that much bullshit. It's not like Republicans are special or anything.

And the House Democrat's lived off of FDR's programs until 1994 when Southern racism culture diverged from the original New Deal coalition. LBJ also helped, but it's less noticed with the whole Vietnam War thing.

It's not like Americans have grown dumber since 1950 or something. If the 40 million (I believe) uninsured gain basically free/cheap healthcare with the public option, whammo instant Democratic voters for life. Single payer would be an improvement, but whatever.

Maybe when not a single Republican votes for a bill they compromised on - for what, the third time? - they might learn. It has to happen eventually.

Quote
The simple fact that the Republicans stood a chance in '08 is outright horrifying. And it doesn't matter what the Democrats do, what good they accomplish, how many millions of people are well-off because of them -- the Republican party at large is such a vile mess of inhuman scum that they'll do everything in their vast power to destroy the accomplishments and humanitarianism of the Left, including inciting the easily misled or otherwise painfully stupid (many of whom in fact have the most to gain from Democratic policies) into violence.

This has been true for quite a while and Democratic presidents have, in fact, been popular and passed successful legislation. I mean, that's like the 60's in a nutshell.

The entire problem with this whole debacle is that both parties have been sucking blood from Reagan's corpse with their neoliberals and free market worship on either side. The Republicans did it because they don't have any comparable demagogues (still don't) and the Democrats had Clinton, who failed to get healthcare reform and had a stunning loss in 1994 right after. Clinton was basically declawed and acted like the best Republican president ever after that. PARALLELS.

Of course, the Republicans are in retreat, hating banks and the financial sector is fashionable again, and the Democrats still acting like neoliberals/Republicans because they want to be better corporate shills than Republicans, despite Obama's entire individual donation thing making this advantage moot.

tl;dr while Americans are stupid the Democratic leadership is at fault because they are fucking morons who can't pass Propaganda 101 and trick poor people into taking free things.
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Detonator

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2009, 08:43:16 PM »

Clinton was impeached, look it up.
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Doom

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2009, 07:30:38 AM »

BEING IMPEACHED IS THE PROCESS OF CALLING THE PRESIDENT TO TASK FOR SOMETHING TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT YOU KICK HIM OUT OF OFFICE, NOT THE ACTUAL KICKING HIM OUT OF OFFICE

CLINTON WAS IMPEACHED, BUT NOT FOUND GUILTY AND THROWN OUT OF OFFICE
* Doom tackles the middle-school era argument and beats it to death in cold blood.
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Disposable Ninja

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2009, 07:32:10 AM »

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Transportation

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2009, 08:44:19 AM »

Clinton was impeached, look it up.

Correction appreciated. Must've been thinking of something else.

BEING IMPEACHED IS THE PROCESS OF CALLING THE PRESIDENT TO TASK FOR SOMETHING TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT YOU KICK HIM OUT OF OFFICE, NOT THE ACTUAL KICKING HIM OUT OF OFFICE

CLINTON WAS IMPEACHED, BUT NOT FOUND GUILTY AND THROWN OUT OF OFFICE
* Doom tackles the middle-school era argument and beats it to death in cold blood.

If you're going to be nitpicking, in all caps, you should at least notice that the statement was evidence and not, you know, a syllogism since it lacked a premise/argument/conclusion. I mean, I could delete that right now and the argument wouldn't be less valid.

Anyway, to be on topic, the growing liberal resistance in the House is promising at the very least.
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Royal☭

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2009, 09:29:34 AM »

Too bad it's the 6 senators who represent less than 3% of the population who are dicking things up in the Senate.  My new policy is nuke the Senate, it's archaic.

Doom

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2009, 09:46:12 AM »

Sorry Transportation I just saw Detonator's post and then I knew I had to put a monster down before it could draw a single breath.
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Mongrel

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2009, 05:09:54 AM »

My new policy is nuke the Senate, it's archaic.

Hah, that's nothing. You should see OUR senate. WHOABOY.
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BŁge

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Mongrel

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #76 on: August 27, 2009, 10:03:09 AM »

If this works, we should make a note that the US political system can still be made to function with the use of a martyr.

:shifty:
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Norondor

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #77 on: August 27, 2009, 12:44:13 PM »

won't work, the right will control the discourse to be about the left being opportunistic bastards with no hearts who use the deaths of their friends for political reasons, people will take it at face value because i am dead and living in hell, and all healthcare discussions will be irreparably destroyed, maybe they'll even shut down medicare
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Classic

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2009, 12:49:14 PM »

Then they'll blame it on the democrats and liberals.
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Norondor

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #79 on: August 27, 2009, 01:23:43 PM »

goes without saying
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