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Author Topic: Health Care Reform  (Read 36883 times)

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Catloaf

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #200 on: December 29, 2009, 02:25:31 PM »

Doesn't he have the power of the line-item veto?
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TA

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #201 on: December 29, 2009, 02:43:47 PM »

Doesn't he have the power of the line-item veto?

Not since that was found grotesquely unconstitutional almost twelve years ago.
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yyler

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #202 on: December 29, 2009, 03:06:40 PM »

I don't know why anyone is surprised. Obama's been evil the entire time.
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Kashan

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #203 on: December 29, 2009, 04:26:04 PM »

You guys are really trying to tell me that a bill which increases the number of people on healthcare and gets rid of pre-existing conditions isn't worth passing? I mean I want a socialist utopia as much as the next guy (seriously I do.), but I have trouble believing you'd really want to kill this. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see this coming back at all if Obama kicks it back to the senate, much less coming back better.
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Shinra

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #204 on: December 29, 2009, 04:29:26 PM »

It increases the number of people on healthcare by forcing them to buy it or be heavily fined.

Republicans are trying to create a world where we treat health care like auto insurance - we buy the minimum because we have to and hope we never have to use it because it covers next to nothing and will cost us more than we get in return no matter what the situation is. Republicans have succeeded in this because for some fucking reason we're convinced that we need a 60 vote majority to get goddamn anything done. We're so terrified of the slight potential that a filibuster might possibly somehow take place that we've made concession after concession to get things done, and Obama is too spineless to put his foot down and direct his fucking party.

Jesus christ, the entire nation watched Bush wrangle his party to do things they didn't want to do for 8 years with threats of fundraising cuts, primary endorsements to opponents, stonewalling on pet legislations, etc... Why the fuck can't we take a page from the republican playbook FOR ONCE and be a fucking effective party?
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Catloaf

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #205 on: December 29, 2009, 05:42:48 PM »

Because the moral high ground is still apparently worth having even when it's covered in shit tossed onto it from the low ground?
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SCD

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #206 on: December 29, 2009, 05:55:29 PM »

Just want to add that you cannot try to read the current bill because it is too long, confusing, and can only be understood by lawyers.  In comparison, the field manual that helped you win Iraq including all the important philosophies behind fighting comprehensive insurgencies was 300 pages tops.  And it was the best thing ever written on the subject.  Your constitution or the UN Decleration of human rights also are works of art on the same level due to their brevity, ease of understanding, and clarity of intent.  Your health bill fails on all three.

If that isn't a flag, then a conversation is not worth having.
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Kashan

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #207 on: December 29, 2009, 06:43:51 PM »

It increases the number of people on healthcare by forcing them to buy it or be heavily fined.
Republicans have succeeded in this because for some fucking reason we're convinced that we need a 60 vote majority to get goddamn anything done. We're so terrified of the slight potential that a filibuster might possibly somehow take place that we've made concession after concession to get things done, and Obama is too spineless to put his foot down and direct his fucking party.
You think the party that made a 700 page amendment be read out loud isn't going to actually go through with a filibuster? The GoP can't wait for the opportunity to filibuster because it'll make them heroes to most of their constituents.
Quote
Jesus christ, the entire nation watched Bush wrangle his party to do things they didn't want to do for 8 years with threats of fundraising cuts, primary endorsements to opponents, stonewalling on pet legislations, etc... Why the fuck can't we take a page from the republican playbook FOR ONCE and be a fucking effective party?
Because we aren't ideologically orthodox or respectful of authority the way the republicans are. That's the nature of the liberal mind set. Add onto that the fact that we got the majority by running candidates that are barely discernible ideologically from republicans to take advantage of the unpopularity of Bush and you end up with a party where half the representatives aren't liberal in any real sense. Oh, and it's the younger half.

Just want to add that you cannot try to read the current bill because it is too long, confusing, and can only be understood by lawyers.  In comparison, the field manual that helped you win Iraq including all the important philosophies behind fighting comprehensive insurgencies was 300 pages tops.  And it was the best thing ever written on the subject.  Your constitution or the UN Decleration of human rights also are works of art on the same level due to their brevity, ease of understanding, and clarity of intent.  Your health bill fails on all three.

If that isn't a flag, then a conversation is not worth having.
We're not writing a philosophy of medical care here, nor are we writing a strategy of medical care. And while our constitution is relatively brief, the notes on the court cases that have been required to discern what it actually says are not. This is a bureaucratic document covering a huge swath of information which has been pieced together by several hundred people. I'd like it to be shorter too, but the reality of the construction and purpose of the document are what they are.
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Norondor

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #208 on: December 29, 2009, 06:55:39 PM »

You think the party that made a 700 page amendment be read out loud isn't going to actually go through with a filibuster? The GoP can't wait for the opportunity to filibuster because it'll make them heroes to most of their constituents.

Then LET THEM FUCKING FILIBUSTER. I want to see them standing up there until they fucking pass out. I want to see them there for days. This bullshit where the threat of the GOP not being happy with the left is enough is earnestly and truly pathetic.
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Royal☭

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #209 on: December 29, 2009, 06:57:46 PM »

GAH

The let them Filibuster line is FUCKING RETARDED because filibusterin' ain't what it used to be.  Back in ye olden days it was one guy reading shit until he got tired.  The rules these days state the filibuster party needs one person in the room to keep talking, and the opposing party needs to be there IN FULL or else the minority party can claim lack of quorum.

It is retarded and pretty much why the filibuster needs to die entirely.

Brentai

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #210 on: December 29, 2009, 08:11:16 PM »

Okay, let's run down what the bill in its current form changes (and it's really, really hard to get this info for some reason, partially because most results are complete fabrications):

* Citizens are now required to purchase health care from a private interest or be fined.
* If citizens are unable to purchase health care on their own, public money will be supplied to pay the private interests with.
* Federal funding in cases of abortions now banned.  Also law is worded in such a way as to invalidate Roe v. Wade.  Laughing! out! loud!
* Insurance companies now allowed to increase premiums by up to 300% for seniors.  what
* Some sort of Rx finaglery which seems to have the final effect of basically killing generic brands.

Missing from list: Anything that suggests that actual health care industry is subject to further regulation.  Kindaaaaa the opposite?  And everybody in the country is forced to pay for it?

So yeah, I say, let the GOP filibuster for Gods' sakes.  A few of them have even as much as admitted that they wanted to turn the bill into an absolute worst nightmare scenario for all parties, just to make the Dems look incredibly awful for supporting it (it worked).  So do it, let them blow up the Trojan Horse they built.

Or give it to Obama and let him read it an say "It's no good."  I really, really want this to happen.  I think it's his big chance to prove that he's not going to take all those good intentions and let the GOP pave a road straight down into the seventh level with them.
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Brentai

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #211 on: December 29, 2009, 08:49:59 PM »

Also, all stories about the bill have gone right off the ticker in favor of 5-10 articles about the failed terrorist plot.

Is this 2002?  This is 2002.
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Norondor

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #212 on: December 29, 2009, 08:55:49 PM »

Or give it to Obama and let him read it an say "It's no good."  I really, really want this to happen.  I think it's his big chance to prove that he's not going to take all those good intentions and let the GOP pave a road straight down into the seventh level with them.

Hope leads to despair.
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Thad

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #213 on: December 29, 2009, 09:34:38 PM »

Ironically, you need Dubya for this.

Not really ironic; it's the nature of the two parties as they currently stand.  The Republicans are assholes and the Democrats are pussies.

Put another couple of ways:

Jesus christ, the entire nation watched Bush wrangle his party to do things they didn't want to do for 8 years with threats of fundraising cuts, primary endorsements to opponents, stonewalling on pet legislations, etc... Why the fuck can't we take a page from the republican playbook FOR ONCE and be a fucking effective party?

Because we aren't ideologically orthodox or respectful of authority the way the republicans are. That's the nature of the liberal mind set. Add onto that the fact that we got the majority by running candidates that are barely discernible ideologically from republicans to take advantage of the unpopularity of Bush and you end up with a party where half the representatives aren't liberal in any real sense. Oh, and it's the younger half.

Well, sort of.  In practice, it's more that the Democrats are taking money from the same people the Republicans are.  But yes, the Democrats do not have the party discipline that the Republicans do.  The Republicans have managed to vote in lockstep, no compromise, no exceptions, and Bush managed to railroad immensely unpopular things through because he had more balls than the opposition party.

Despite the "Obamacare" name being tossed around, Obama has fuck-all to do with any of this; he never really stepped up on healthcare.  I think a lot of that was learning the wrong lessons from the last two administrations -- he didn't want to be too closely tied to the healthcare legislation like Clinton was, and he didn't want to run the country as a unitary executive like Bush did and instead opted to let Congress do its thing while he watched from the sidelines.  And here we are.

The let them Filibuster line is FUCKING RETARDED because filibusterin' ain't what it used to be.  Back in ye olden days it was one guy reading shit until he got tired.  The rules these days state the filibuster party needs one person in the room to keep talking, and the opposing party needs to be there IN FULL or else the minority party can claim lack of quorum.

It is retarded and pretty much why the filibuster needs to die entirely.

Which it almost did in '05 -- at the Republicans' hands because the minority Democrats kept filibustering.

I'm sure I've mentioned it at least once in the thread, but just to reiterate, my attitude at the time was that we should let them do it because the filibuster is an inherently conservative tool.  And it's not like the Dems ever successfully filibustered any of Bush's most egregious shit, either.

a bill which increases the number of people on healthcare

In the same way that a draft would increase the number of people serving in the military.  Except this would be more like a draft that forced people to sign up with Blackwater or Halliburton.

It's more than just the issue of a compulsory buy-in with the dicks who've been fucking us this whole time.  (Ah, I was wondering who the dicks were in my Team America metaphor.  Republicans are assholes, Democrats are pussies, and the insurance companies are dicks.  Where was I?)  Who's going to be paying for this?  It's not the wealthy, of course, it's the middle class.  Via Bob Herbert at the NYT:

Quote from: A liberal, not a right-wing nutjob
The tax would kick in on plans exceeding $23,000 annually for family coverage and $8,500 for individuals, starting in 2013. In the first year it would affect relatively few people in the middle class. But because of the steadily rising costs of health care in the U.S., more and more plans would reach the taxation threshold each year.

Within three years of its implementation, according to the Congressional Budget Office, the tax would apply to nearly 20 percent of all workers with employer-provided health coverage in the country, affecting some 31 million people. Within six years, according to Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation, the tax would reach a fifth of all households earning between $50,000 and $75,000 annually. Those families can hardly be considered very wealthy.

Proponents say the tax will raise nearly $150 billion over 10 years, but there’s a catch. It’s not expected to raise this money directly. The dirty little secret behind this onerous tax is that no one expects very many people to pay it. The idea is that rather than fork over 40 percent in taxes on the amount by which policies exceed the threshold, employers (and individuals who purchase health insurance on their own) will have little choice but to ratchet down the quality of their health plans.

So, all right.  People who can't afford health insurance are forced to buy it anyway; people who CAN afford it wind up spending more to get less.  And not paying the taxes that are actually supposed to finance the thing.

Wait, it gets better:

Quote from: TFA
If even the plan’s proponents do not expect policyholders to pay the tax, how will it raise $150 billion in a decade? Great question.

We all remember learning in school about the suspension of disbelief. This part of the Senate’s health benefits taxation scheme requires a monumental suspension of disbelief. According to the Joint Committee on Taxation, less than 18 percent of the revenue will come from the tax itself. The rest of the $150 billion, more than 82 percent of it, will come from the income taxes paid by workers who have been given pay raises by employers who will have voluntarily handed over the money they saved by offering their employees less valuable health insurance plans.

Can you believe it?

So, okay.  A bill that creates undue financial hardship on people who can't afford health insurance, sticks people who CAN afford it with something worse than they already have, and is financed by pure bullshit.

and gets rid of pre-existing conditions

They can still cap the amount of money they'll spend on you in a given year, which amounts to the same thing.

isn't worth passing?

You're focusing on (an exaggeration of) the benefits while downplaying the drawbacks.  Hate to go all ad absurdum on you, but how many kittens would the bill have to kill before you'd say it wasn't worth medical progress?  Damn, I bet Frist would have had an answer for that.

(Excuse me, I'm just going to bask in that for a minute; it was a very good joke.)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see this coming back at all if Obama kicks it back to the senate, much less coming back better.

The bitch is that you're right; we're fucked on this either way at this point because Barack, Harry, and the rest have screwed the pooch so badly.  There is no good outcome anymore.

I honestly don't know where I'd come down on the "it should pass because it's all we're going to get/it shouldn't pass because it's fucking awful" debate, and frankly it's a moot point anyway.  We've got a shit bill, the President's going to sign it, and that's the way it's going to be.

Politically, the Dems are going to pretend this is a revolution and the Republicans are going to pretend it's the end of civilization, each in the hopes of winning in 2010 and maybe as far out as 2012.

In practice?  We won't even really know what the effects of the new law are by the 2010 election.  Maybe things WILL get better than they are.  I expect the co-ops or nonprofits or whatever the fuck watered-down bullshit version of the watered-down bullshit version of what we actually wanted WILL probably be at least a little bit better than the private insurance plan that recently decided it had spent too much money on antifungal meds for my lungs.  And it'll be nice to see my girlfriend have some kind of health insurance too.

But the fact remains that the Democrats sold us out, Lieberman is the single worst politician in Washington, Obama vocally opposed mandates back when it was politically convenient, and the insurance companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

Which the government is also propping up with our money despite our objections.
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Catloaf

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #214 on: December 29, 2009, 09:55:36 PM »

Is staging a large protest still viable?  What about lynching/assassination of the executives of every large health insurance company and the most influential lobbyists?  Civil war against the tea-baggers? 

 :despair: HOW THE HELL DID IT COME TO THIS?!!?!!??!?  A MAN WHO CAMPAIGNED ON HOPE BEING THE ONE TO BRING US DESPAIR?!?!?  THIS COUNTRY JUST CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT ANYMORE! :despair:
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SCD

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #215 on: December 29, 2009, 10:38:28 PM »


We're not writing a philosophy of medical care here, nor are we writing a strategy of medical care. And while our constitution is relatively brief, the notes on the court cases that have been required to discern what it actually says are not. This is a bureaucratic document covering a huge swath of information which has been pieced together by several hundred people. I'd like it to be shorter too, but the reality of the construction and purpose of the document are what they are.

Over five thousand pages, and that's what you have to say.  This is five thousand pages for a law, as opposed to detailed logistical policy, made by politicians not acting in concert, but instead with 'me-too' in their minds. 

You guys keep this up, and I'm going to have to start calling the democrats "The UN Bunch" for all their effectiveness.




Thad:  Thank you for noticing how little Obama did on this one. 
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Kashan

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #216 on: December 30, 2009, 07:47:36 AM »


We're not writing a philosophy of medical care here, nor are we writing a strategy of medical care. And while our constitution is relatively brief, the notes on the court cases that have been required to discern what it actually says are not. This is a bureaucratic document covering a huge swath of information which has been pieced together by several hundred people. I'd like it to be shorter too, but the reality of the construction and purpose of the document are what they are.

Over five thousand pages, and that's what you have to say.  This is five thousand pages for a law, as opposed to detailed logistical policy, made by politicians not acting in concert, but instead with 'me-too' in their minds. 

You guys keep this up, and I'm going to have to start calling the democrats "The UN Bunch" for all their effectiveness.




Thad:  Thank you for noticing how little Obama did on this one. 

Are you familiar with how bills are constructed in this system? This is not a particularly offensive bill in terms of length compared to content.
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SCD

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #217 on: December 30, 2009, 08:42:18 AM »

Logistical implementation of a bill where lives are on the line is something you don't want to muck around with.  Compared to Outright Socialized healthcare, you are going to all have major issues. 
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Pacobird

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #218 on: December 30, 2009, 08:55:56 AM »

* Some sort of Rx finaglery which seems to have the final effect of basically killing generic brands.


I am reading the text of the Senate bill right now and I am not seeing anything about generic drugs other than

- a requirement for pharmacists to track generic dispensation rates, and

- an exemption to the prohibition against group drug purchasing if a more cost-effective generic alternative to the prescription exists.

A section number would be very helpful, and much appreciated, because I'm reading the Senate bill as pretty drug-neutral and the House bill is a pretty substantial victory for generics.

Quote from: SCD
Logistical implementation of a bill where lives are on the line is something you don't want to muck around with.


You are literally retarded.
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Mongrel

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #219 on: December 30, 2009, 08:57:35 AM »

It seems a couple of you might think that SCD has failed to understand a complex (perhaps 'American'?) issue.

This is view slightly correct, for two reasons: 1) The US tendency towards 'riders' (i.e. legislative buyoffs of individual legislators) in legislation, which add loads of padding to bills. 2) The over-lawyering present in the US puts Tudor England to shame, which requires that any law worth it's salt try to be 'lawyer-proof', with reams of text to explicitly state variables and close loopholes.

However, by and large SCD is correct. Any document beyond a certain size is either so cumbersome as to be functionally useless, loaded with 'booby traps', purposely designed to intimidate the public it's supposed to serve, hiding something dreadful, or all of the above.

The Public Good is best served with clear, well-organized legislation. This is just a godawful pile.
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