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Author Topic: Feedback Thread  (Read 4726 times)

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Doom

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Feedback Thread
« on: August 29, 2009, 11:38:43 AM »

I volunteered to run this.

I anticipated people being apathetic so I made the overall scoring and structure very flexible. In general, any contest cut was due to lack of interest or inability of participants to care enough to IM, PM, whisper or otherwise #finalfight each other. All I'd have to do was work with what you guys actually played.

Everything was available in preview form from near the end of July when Ocksi spoiled it and I asked for the forum to be revealed. Maybe a few new contests sprung up at the behest of additional interest, but I would assume that interest would be evidence that participants are prepared(Writing Contest 4, Blokus, Werewolf, Mario Shell Battle.)

What I did not anticipate was aggressive apathy. I get that there are a lot of threads to read. I get that you would have liked a contest for a game to be here. If you are a gentleman, like Niku or Frocto, you actually helped me set it up. You taught me things. I learned how to use Hamachi and Camtasia and Youtube. If you are an outstanding gentleman, like Frocto, yyler, Lyrai, you actually hosted events and contributed content.

If you were a shit-heel, you barely participated or you did not participate but that did not stop you from telling me how much you disapprove. For all the people who thought my Speed Run ideas were lame, not a single one of them actually provided any set-up .rars of their own. Thanks for reminding me that SMB3 is cliche and Super Bomberman 2 is multi-player only. Repeatedly.

Let's be blunt: there's no need. If you don't care, then don't post. In fact, that you care enough to post malice rather than participate probably indicates something foul about yourself. I'd recommend some introspection.

I'm probably being overly sensitive, but what can I say? You spend weeks trying to do something nice and be routinely insulted for it.





Things I would do to better the Worstlympics in the future;

1) Planning in advance. I guess it ruins the surprise, but Interest Threads and Suggest A Contest Threads should be up a month in advance.

2) More individual judges. I liked the way Frocto worked out and it's a shame Paco/Defenstration never got to step up to bat.

3) Be pushier. I get the vague feeling that some of the contests might've gone through if I hounded people. However, I don't like the idea that I have to mother individuals who want to play mario kart to actually get off their asses, IM similar individuals, and actually do it.

4) Be more organized. I apologize for TF2 and Brawl falling apart. Those probably would've gone through better if people knew who to actively seek. I.E. if I just gave you pre-determined match-up brackets.

5) Standards set in place ahead of time. Should be easy, a lot of them were established this year. I guess that assumes we even run next year or that I do it. I guess I'll just gather my findings and leave them for myself or another, if they care.

6) More negative points. Around the last week or so of the Worstlympics, I developed a pretty robotic intolerance of the insults. I'm stupid? No, you are, here's your achievement. You're banned? Great, less entries to grade. Nobody entered a contest? It's dead, thanks for being apathetic. Hell, aintaer and I had a spat. Did I have time to really sit and think about whether or not his direct insults to me, after a month of direct insults, was a joke or not? No, thanks for being a Judge, get out. I'm not sure if this makes me intolerably mean or able to deal with problems with the tools I'm given or insane. Probably all three.

7) More achievements. They were a great idea. Thanks, SCD.

8) More events. I think I did a decent job of giving you guys the tools to hop into the Speed Run, I bet more freeware events would work with proper set-up.

Ok, thinking about it, More Events with GUARANTEED HOSTS. It disappoints me that you guys could've played Settlers or Diplomacy, but when I asked people who cared about that stuff to do it, they didn't care, so they didn't happen.

9) Better directing. I get that people didn't want to read 40-80 new fucking threads. I personally don't understand why they couldn't just read the titles and go from there(people who confessed they were only going to play in what interested them, NAMED what interested them, and then no-showed) or didn't use a web browser's find function (people who ask WHERE IS X CONTEST when it's been sitting there in preview form for two weeks, or even better, when it's been opened and bumped for a few days).  I guess it all comes down to more "what's effort?"

Anyways, I guess it'd help to separate the various contest types into sub-forums. Week 1, Week 2, Week 3, Week 4, Month-Long. Or.. Writing, Freeware, Tourneys, Art?

10) Different month, maybe? Niku went to QuakeCon, Lyrai went out.. but I'm hard-pressed to see how this was a bad month for anyone, given that nobody told me. I think the last big Pyolympics actually had a "Do Not Host In September PLEASE" ruckus.
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Esperath

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 11:52:46 AM »

You did a stand-up job and put a huge amount of effort into running the Olympics.  Keep that in mind, first and foremost.

If anything, I feel like more structure and fewer events would be better; having tons of events was a neat experiment, but just ended up diluting out potentially plausible competitions with distributed weak interest.

For me, the Olympics were a success because they got me playing (and discussing) games that I would not have otherwise tried.  August was a bad month for me, but I dropped in on a couple individual events anyway.

Edit: I know those last two paragraphs seem self-contradictory, but what I mean is that individually, I enjoyed dabbling with new things, but in terms of running a 'formal' competition, it might be better to have groups and a manageable number of set events.

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Doom

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 12:03:53 PM »

Yeah, I know what you mean. 12 Stable events with tons of participation beat 30-40 with none.
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jsnlxndrlv

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 02:14:30 PM »

I love the Worstlympics. It is gratifying to participate in contests and competitions. I think a lot of people like the idea of the Worstlympics, but aren't interested in the cat-herding involved in organizing or scheduling events. That's not much fun.

I think there's a danger in putting too much emphasis on interest threads and statements of intention and the like. Yes, you need a lot of organization to make an event of this magnitude possible, but if you're going to try to distribute that organizational responsibility among the competitors, you've got to be careful about how you do it.

People are neurologically terrible at predicting how they'll feel about something before it actually happens, because they tend to imagine the future too much like the present to estimate effectively. I might think today that playing a particular game on a certain date will be really fun, but until that date actually arrives and I know what other activities and real-world opportunities will be competing with the game for that time-slot, that commitment's reality is still in question.

The fact that the most successful events were all asymmetrical, low-investment activities like writing and game-nomination and score-submission should suggest that direct competition isn't the best route for Worstlympic events. If direct competition is necessary, you've gotta just set a date and a time and dictate that it happens then whether people are there or not. Asking contests to find and play one another fails as frequently as it succeeds, if not more.

Also, national standings probably shouldn't be determined just by summing scores. If nobody on my team wants to write crappy erotica, should we really be penalized for not wanting to waste the judges' time just for the participation credit?
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Doom

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 02:24:54 PM »

With all due respect, what should determine nation standings? Summing scores seems to have put the nations with the most medals, participation AND best scores at the top, which is about as appropriate as it could be.

I know Third Nation has to eat three sad clown faces in a row, but if they had participated in events that Let's Play Worstlympics or Doombeard Cove did not, they would have scores to boost their overall score.

As it is, I used the system I did to not penalize anyone who didn't enter(you got three zeros, but these add or remove nothing to the positive scores you got from events you entered.)

The real con I can see to this system is that it might encourage people to ONLY enter events that they believe will garner enough participation to count.

I also wanted you guys to rely on each other as teams a bit. If you know you don't want to write Erotic Fanfiction, hopefully all four of you won't feel that way.

And if nothing else, WHY NOT? Maybe you have a wacky idea. Maybe you sit down and run with it and the judges like it. More often than not, anyone who earned a zero made the conscious choice to "just not enter" and maybe didn't even ask if anybody else in the team would like to step up to bat.
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Doom

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2009, 02:26:48 PM »

Summing scores also made it easy to deal with multiple entries from a single nation(best score wins, the obvious benefit is you get an extra chance per participant to be judged.)
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Classic

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 02:33:45 PM »

Were you planning on ogres just counting as one man nations then? Also, I'd like to see WOE tallied by nation and used as a companion score if you're not using those as your scoring scheme.
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Doom

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 02:34:46 PM »

I did not plan it, it just worked out best that way.
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Brentai

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 02:47:40 PM »

Be more stringent about the rules.  A lot more.  Be a downright fucking Nazi about it.

It SOUNDS like the opposite of fun, but human nature is contradictory in that people sometimes need to be forced to have a good time.  Think of, I dunno, WoW raiding - you have to literally scream at people to show up on time and have their shit together, but at the end as long as enough people play along everyone will agree that it was more fun than a chore.  Or so I'm assuming, since people keep doing it.

You might get the reputation of being the Stop Having Fun Guy when you're really trying to be the Start Having Fun Guy, but you really got to force people to participate, especially with this lot.  The major problem with, say, the bracketed tournaments is that you left it at "You guys go find each other and let me know how it goes."  And then acted surprised each and every time they didn't do this.  Had you phrased it as "YOU WILL SHOW UP AT 8 PM ON SATURDAY OR FORFEIT AND GET A SAD CLOWN FACE FOR YOUR ACHIEVEMENTS" they would probably show up, play the damn game, and admit it was worth adhering to a sensible rule to do.

Obviously this constitutes more work on your part, or whoever the hell is stupid enough to try organizing this next (it used to be Arc, which explains everything.)  So yeah cutting down to the core successful events, and skipping the redundancies (we don't need more than one writing contest or more than one tourney-style vidjagame) will allow both the organizer and the participants to focus.

Final note: Fans are clingy complaining dipshits who will never be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill tremulous voices the happier you'll be for it.  Take it to heart forever.
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Doom

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 02:55:52 PM »

Regarding shutting out fan voices: did that by the start of this week. See Aintaer's judging. You're a problem, even a tiny, joking one? BOOT.

Regarding trusting people to do their own tournament stuff:

two thoughts

1) this was the original design, to prevent me from doing too much work. It worked too well, resulting in at least half of the contests being ignored.

2) so ultimately, yes, I must be a mean fucking nazi. That's why I stuck to my guns since the flag contest. I should have drawn more guns, though. Or drawn it more readily.

Also: "we don't need more than one tourney style vidya"

Well that conflicts with the nation philosophy, I think. I kind of like the idea that if there's a Brawl, TF2 and Spelunky tournament, between four guys you have the Spelunky addict who likes Brawl a little, two guys who are gung-ho for TF2 and will grab a mercenary, and somebody who doesn't give a flying fuck, he's here to enter only the Art/Writing contests.

But well reality exists as proof against that idea, huh.

Thank you for the solid advice either way Brentai.
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jsnlxndrlv

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 03:36:35 PM »

Hey, six replies during the creation of this post. Cool.

I volunteered to run this.

Thanks again. We're largely a bunch of ungrateful whiners, and I wouldn't want the responsibility of organizing the bunch of us for a whole month.

Quote
1) Planning in advance. I guess it ruins the surprise, but Interest Threads and Suggest A Contest Threads should be up a month in advance.

Suggest a Contest threads, yes. (I'd recommend converting the Interest Threads into a single "Event Host Bidding" contest the last week before the month begins--see a bit further down this post.)

Quote
2) More individual judges. I liked the way Frocto worked out and it's a shame Paco/Defenstration never got to step up to bat.

Sure. Any particular reason why event non-participants can't all be judges? Maybe throw out contestants' highest and lowest scores before calculating standings?

Quote
3) Be pushier. I get the vague feeling that some of the contests might've gone through if I hounded people. However, I don't like the idea that I have to mother individuals who want to play mario kart to actually get off their asses, IM similar individuals, and actually do it.

Well, it's like I was saying; people like these events and they want to participate, but they don't want to put up with the event of trying to figure out who's participating and who isn't, when those people are available, whether they have friend codes for the appropriate party, etc. Hounding them to figure that out probably wouldn't work. It's too much like insisting that "you're going to have fun whether you like it or not." I think stuff like Chess and Mario Kart and so on might work better if the host just declared "August 23 is CHESS DAY; get into #finalfight any time that day and play as many people as you can." Take the scores posted in the thread and treat them like Bucklin ballots, or something. Do whatever it takes to minimize the prerequisites standing between the idea of an event and its realization.

Quote
4) Be more organized. I apologize for TF2 and Brawl falling apart. Those probably would've gone through better if people knew who to actively seek. I.E. if I just gave you pre-determined match-up brackets.

Again, even the brackets might be expecting too much of us. Better to just declare in advance that "THURSDAY NIGHT IS FORT NIGHT" and everybody who shows up is declared a WOElympic participant.

The danger there, of course, is that then you risk people missing out on events they're really interested in--which is why I recommend a Bidding Competition for "event host" positions. The week before the Olympics start, you post a list of all the events that have been proposed. Everybody gets that many points to bid. If there are sixteen events, and I really want Blokus and Chess to happen on nights when I'm available, I might bid eight points for each one. Kazz might bid all 16 on Blokus. (People can reallocate their bids in response to other posts.) At the end of the week, the thread is locked, and the first person to bid the highest bidded amount for an event becomes the host and organizes the event; anybody who tied with the host has veto power for the host's proposals. Any event which received no bids is withdrawn due to lack of interest.

Quote
5) Standards set in place ahead of time. Should be easy, a lot of them were established this year. I guess that assumes we even run next year or that I do it. I guess I'll just gather my findings and leave them for myself or another, if they care.

Sounds sensible.

Quote
6) More negative points. Around the last week or so of the Worstlympics, I developed a pretty robotic intolerance of the insults. I'm stupid? No, you are, here's your achievement. You're banned? Great, less entries to grade. Nobody entered a contest? It's dead, thanks for being apathetic. Hell, aintaer and I had a spat. Did I have time to really sit and think about whether or not his direct insults to me, after a month of direct insults, was a joke or not? No, thanks for being a Judge, get out. I'm not sure if this makes me intolerably mean or able to deal with problems with the tools I'm given or insane. Probably all three.

It'll be good to have them set up in advance. I really like the idea of going into something like this with the ground rules established, so that when the inevitable whining appears, you can shrug and point to the rules; your hands are tied. A lot of potential for friction here, though, although that's par for this crew.

Quote
7) More achievements. They were a great idea. Thanks, SCD.

Yes.[/quote]

Quote
8) More events. I think I did a decent job of giving you guys the tools to hop into the Speed Run, I bet more freeware events would work with proper set-up.

Hell yes. Anything with a with a relatively independent, asymmetrical participation requirement is perfect.

Quote
Ok, thinking about it, More Events with GUARANTEED HOSTS. It disappoints me that you guys could've played Settlers or Diplomacy, but when I asked people who cared about that stuff to do it, they didn't care, so they didn't happen.

Yeah, exactly. If an event doesn't have a host, unless it's basically the Bullshit/Active thread or some variant thereon, it's likely to die in obscurity.

Quote
9) Better directing. I get that people didn't want to read 40-80 new fucking threads. I personally don't understand why they couldn't just read the titles and go from there(people who confessed they were only going to play in what interested them, NAMED what interested them, and then no-showed) or didn't use a web browser's find function (people who ask WHERE IS X CONTEST when it's been sitting there in preview form for two weeks, or even better, when it's been opened and bumped for a few days).  I guess it all comes down to more "what's effort?"

Anyways, I guess it'd help to separate the various contest types into sub-forums. Week 1, Week 2, Week 3, Week 4, Month-Long. Or.. Writing, Freeware, Tourneys, Art?

I think having people more involved in the set-up would mitigate these problems somewhat. Going from no mention of the olympics to OLYMPICS ARE NEXT WEEK was kind of a shock to the system. There was a lot of information to absorb, and it was easy to lose track of what you'd read about and what you were just remembering from years past. Otherwise, these all sound like ideas with potential, but I have no particular favorites among them.

Quote
10) Different month, maybe? Niku went to QuakeCon, Lyrai went out.. but I'm hard-pressed to see how this was a bad month for anyone, given that nobody told me. I think the last big Pyolympics actually had a "Do Not Host In September PLEASE" ruckus.

It's the last month in summer, and at least some of us are still going to schools. I think personally I would favor any season as long as it happened right in the middle, rather than at the end.

But finally, I do think this was a good year, even if it seemed like others might have disagreed.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 06:11:31 PM »

Doom, you are a good man.
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Miss Cat Ears

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 07:32:31 PM »

When I came here and saw everything that had been going on, I was really impressed.  I can't say much more than that, but it looked well organized and it was clear that people were having fun with it.
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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2009, 01:36:16 AM »

I had a lot of fun doing what I did and I'd do it again. I don't have any ideas that are terribly good, but I don't think you should give up.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2009, 02:13:47 AM »

Advice for future events: work just as hard if not harder, but lower your expectations.
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Doom

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2009, 08:54:48 AM »

No see my expectations were already rock bottom(I didn't expect anyone to do anything and when tasked to fight each other, half of the events did not actually happen) so I think like Brentai said I must Nazi it up a notch.
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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2009, 01:45:57 PM »

I was not aware of going out until August started, I think. I know it was only a week or so lead time.

Sorry it was timed wrong.
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Doom

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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2009, 01:46:35 PM »

S'fine.
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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2009, 07:54:36 AM »

Observation re Newbie's earliers posts: are you sure that any problems with averaging the scores wasn't caused by your team ignoring the most events?

The last good Pyolympics had our first NetHack competition. Only two people entered and god the Gold and Silver respectively, with the Bronze unawarded. This year we have five entries and two of them were guys who loaded the game and threw themselves down stairs or into vicious puddles. You can't tell me that four people failing to give NetHack a try is anything but sheer laziness or unwillingness.
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Re: Feedback Thread
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2009, 08:00:31 AM »

Fredward, VGameT, Norondor(almost) and Transportation did nothing as members of active nations. Anybody could have bettered their overall nation by inviting one of the Ogres to fill that hollow spot.

This is what I mean by "a smart team diversifies tasks rather than let each individual member assume they must shoulder the entire load." Imagine if you had Kayin or Cait or Esperath or Shinra by your side!

Lord knows I was pleased to see Bongo win Writing Contest 2 after my incessant nagging to him to enter.
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