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Author Topic: Starcraft II  (Read 20778 times)

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Shinra

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2010, 09:46:00 AM »

are you looking for a mario kart thread
I think Sega and Sonic Racing is better, actually. NO FUCKING BLUE SHELLS! AND ULALA! UP DOWN LEFT RIGHT CHU CHU CHU
at least talk about Rock and Roll Racing.  at least that's a blizzard game.
This is a pad bost.

 :rolleyes:
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Makaris

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2010, 02:59:48 PM »

:oic:
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Makaris

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2010, 06:12:12 PM »

The wife and I just got into platinum 2v2 with banshee/voidray cheese.  This is not a good thing.  I expect to be trounced a lot in the near future by people not so weak

 :loser:
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Büge

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2010, 04:51:42 AM »

It's going to have to be the near future, considering the beta is closing in a week or so.
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Makaris

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2010, 06:27:08 AM »

I was under the impression the beta would be going until ~July 20.  ::(:
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TA

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Büge

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2010, 07:02:04 PM »

I was talking to my friend Nick the other day. Apparently Blizzard is taking abilities out of some of the units and just making their damage affect the game differently. We both agreed that the decision was a stupid one.

We likened Blizzard's balancing process to an old man sitting in front of a bank of knobs, watching three gauges rise and fall, frantically adjusting each knob to keep the gauges level.
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Detonator

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2010, 07:19:19 PM »

How are they supposed to balance things if not by changing units?
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Büge

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2010, 07:23:22 PM »

Streamlining units by taking out unique abilities makes them more bland and less dynamic.
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Frocto

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2010, 10:07:41 PM »

"Dynamic" could just as easily be replaced by "twitchy."

Micro is a bullshit measure of skill and has nothing to do with actually being a good commander of forces or not. You're actually complaining about the game being made more accessible to new players, as opposed to having this bullshit wall of skill preventing people who are good at RTS games from playing just because they can't click as fast as some asian guys?

I mean, hypothetically speaking, how is it any better to have a unit have an ability you have to click to use over having him use that ability all the time automatically? Medics using their Heal ability in the original Starcraft without you having to click it was FUCKING GREAT. Everything should be like that.

Shame on you.
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Mongrel

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2010, 05:59:32 AM »

I think the best balance there is to have unique passive abilities.

I agree that the twitch-city nonsense about HOW FAST CAN YOU CLICK?!? is the dumbest thing about current and past RTS games and that automatic special abilities are one of the best things to streamline the game (still waiting for an RTS that geuniunely emulates a military field command, without being a horrible no-fun piece of garbage).

I haven't seen the changes myself, so I don't know exactly what Buge is going on about, but I would agree that if they're taking a unique ability out completely and just replacing it with a straight damage increase or damage reduction, that's pretty lame.

Also, the three-knobs situation is pretty much the balance process for every game that's regularly updated ever.
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Makaris

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2010, 08:40:56 AM »

The game is already pretty good.  In a overall sense I think maybe Terran has received too much love, and I'd like to see more DYNAMIC abilities added to the Zerg to make them less bland in comparison to the other races.  The latest patch added a bunch of new stuff, but I haven't been able to play it much since the patch also broke the hell out of battlenet.

Micro is defiantly an interesting part of SC.  There is a difference between being able to click really fast, and being able to keep a cool head and make fast, smart decisions.  I mean, hand speed helps, but they're not superhuman.  They're just clicking really fast, really well, exactly where they need to be clicking.

I'll give two examples of good micro and bad micro, both from Star Craft 2.

Bad Micro:  Zerg's main macro ability.  I don't think anyone really disagrees about this.  In case you don't know, the Zerg Queen saw a total revamp.  It now can be built early and has this ability called "Spawn Larva".  It is a spell that targets a hatchery and then the Queen barfs on it.  ~40 seconds later, 4 bonus larva pop out.  In that same exact length of time, the Queen has recharged the energy to do it again.  So, basically, Zerg is tied down to this 40 second timer where if they don't go back and use Spawn Larva EVERY 40 SECONDS, they are yielding advantage.  Sure, the Queen has other abilities to spend the energy on, but nearly 100% of the time you are using the energy on spawn larva.

I know what Blizzard was aiming for, and I really do like a lot of 'problems' that Spawn Larva solved.  Zerg no longer need to have tons of Hatchery's to keep up unit count, as theoretically if you manage to use Spawn Larva on time you'll never be wanting for Larva.  And it IS a real skill to be able to keep a clear head in a pitched battle and not forget about your macro.  

Would the game be better if the Queen automatically spawned larva?... maybe.  I lean more towards 'no', as Zerg is already the most dull race in the game, and making the Queen automatically do a lot of the lifting macro-wise would make them even more so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJCwPAsNSy4&playnext_from=TL&videos=Ib2Z9vKU0cU

I still <3 Zerg.

Good Micro:  ...just about every other click-to-use ability and micro-oriented strategy in the game?  Honestly I think people might just have a misunderstanding of what Micro is.  How would Psionic Storm work automatically?  Or Force Field.  Force Field is an EXCELLENT example of a good ability that rewards Micro.  It has such incredible tactical flexibility that comes with a price; skill in micro/your willingness to micro the unit instead of macroing your base.  

Honestly speaking I'm more of a Macro player, I win the majority of my games by expanding smart, keeping a cool head during confrontations and making sure my production structures are never idle.  But I won't handwave all Micro skills away just because they don't' fit my specific playing style.  I think it is greatly to StarCraft's credit that you can go into the game with vastly different skill sets and compete.  

It's like in a fighting game, where "comboing/execution" is analogous to Micro.  Would Fighting Games be better if there weren't any execution barriers?  It's totally a taste thing and not objective at all.
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Mongrel

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2010, 08:51:15 AM »

See, that spawn larva thing sounds absolutely terrible to me, because optimum use is for you to be as computer-like as possible, thus punishing higher-order thinking.

I understand the point you're making about good micro in the second half though. And I'm not really ragging on Starcraft for being Starcraft. It is what it is.

I'm just tired of that kind of RTS. I'd like to see the RTS genre re-invented with avastly improved AI all-around. You could do it at the platoon level for the micro-nuts and the brigade/division level for the macro crew.

I'd also love to see the return of co-op play where one player handles micro and the other macro. That was always one of my favourite things to do in SC1.
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Makaris

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2010, 08:56:54 AM »

I'll admit that Spawn Larva is an issue with me.  I hope something else is made before then but I don't have high hopes.  If it's an consolation, the Zerg was ALREADY the most time-critical race.  Ever second you sit on an idle Larva and the minerals to make it into something, you are wasting time.  That was true in StarCraft 1 and it's true now.  It's one of the defining features of the race.  Zerg don't have queue's, instead they have more versatile production abilities overall.

Queueing up units is a bad habit to get into anyway, so I don't miss em'.

And, to be honest, the majority of RTS's being made for the last decade have been all about Macro with virtually no Micro whatsoever.  They end up not being so good though because when it's nothing but Macro it becomes nothing but "The Build" and figuring out what is the most optimized way to win 100% of the time.  The game dies an early death.

Also, StarCraft 2 will have an option for Shared Unit Control, so you could have a 2v2 where one player does all the macro and the other all the micro.
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Mongrel

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2010, 09:06:00 AM »

Yeah, don't get me wrong... I hate the SPAM UNITS LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER that pretty much defines the Total Annihilation RTS style.
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Frocto

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2010, 09:07:53 AM »

What movie is that?

Anyway, I know what micro is. I'm going to make an example of how I think things should be handled from, ahem, DoTA. Yeeeeaaaah.

So in DoTA, every Hero has four abilities and some heroes all four of them are active. Then you've got King Leoric, who has three passives and one active. Even his Ultimate is passive. He would be the guy you give to new people, except he's fucking boring and they wouldn't want to play if they just saw him. So lazy people end up playing him, instead. One of my friends swears by him. He's sort of like the Guile of DoTA.

Is he less twitchy? Sure! Is he bland? No! He is a fucking crazy skeleton king with a huge-ass sword who meatgrinds people. A smart player can still win just fine with him while making less clicks per second than his opponent who is playing some fire witch or whatever.

An ideal RTS will give you the option to play with as much micro as you want and not penalize you for doing so. I liked Zerg in Starcraft 1 so much because they had vastly less micro than the other races, which freed me up to do more interesting things than click on my fucking science vessel.

How would Psionic Storm work automatically?

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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2010, 09:27:21 AM »



Makaris defiantly hates the word 'definitely'.


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Büge

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2010, 10:39:19 AM »





Your creatures are fighting amongst themselves!
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Mongrel

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2010, 10:41:37 AM »

What movie is that?

:wat: I'm not sure what this was asking?...
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Kayin

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2010, 11:09:51 AM »

I liked Zerg in Starcraft 1 so much because they had vastly less micro than the other races, which freed me up to do more interesting things than click on my fucking science vessel.

Yeah I love it when a lack of micro frees me up to do interesting things like spawning more overlords. 

:facepalm:
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