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Author Topic: Don't you know there's a war on?  (Read 42844 times)

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Thad

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2008, 01:05:23 AM »

Well, that's good news.

I heard the recession only exists within our minds, too!
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Norondor

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2008, 02:26:03 AM »

America is a nation of whiners

Whining makes you explode just like an IED does
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Royal☭

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2008, 12:15:11 PM »

Clearly the troops are not supporting the troops.

Mongrel

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SCD

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2008, 03:54:08 PM »

Worked in the planning office of Kofi Annan? 

The same office which couldn't do anything about any war that happened in the last several years and only major "accomplishment" involving blue berets was Haiti?

The Balkans missions were successful because when implimented by NATO, they had a pretty damn high foreign troop per capita ratio.  Surge-Iraq still is woefully short of those numbers.

Such numbers as used in the Balkans were specifically used to prevent incidents and casualties so as not to hit the news in such a way that Iraq did. 

The surge allowed for more troops to be on the ground in the hotspot, and when every set of boots is a source of HUMINT, the information web of the area of operations becomes a lot less tangled. 

This is important as not only does it prevent incidents through action, but lack of incidents make for ideal environments for conflict resolution through dialogue.  The population segregation of 06 was not complete by any means, nor is it now.  Potential for further events in those areas does exist, although logistical conditions are less favorable now that there are several more Iraqi boots on the ground - ones who have gotten rid of the balaclava.
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Mongrel

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2008, 06:21:16 PM »

Also fair.
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Doom

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2008, 07:28:43 PM »

Isn't it common sense in guerilla warfare to simply hang back and chill when the enemy floods yon occupied cities with extra troops? The Surge just struck me as an incredibly lame "well, what the fuck else can we do?"
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2008, 08:34:27 PM »

Here's the difference: When you flood all the cities and the guerrillas stop blowing things up, your presence will be perceived as deterring, rather than promoting, explosions. The surge's significance is less in quelling the guerrillas and more in all the many things that can be done during a period of greatly diminished guerrilla activity.
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Brentai

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2008, 09:45:41 PM »

So you're saying they can fix all those niggling "no clean water in Baghdad" issues without the insurgents around?

Researching, and... ah.  Well, ha.  I guess maybe they could have.

EDIT: Article's slightly misleading - they start off with an event that happened a couple years ago as if it happened three days ago.
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Thad

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2008, 10:45:07 PM »

Here's the difference: When you flood all the cities and the guerrillas stop blowing things up, your presence will be perceived as deterring, rather than promoting, explosions.

Perceived by whom?

The surge's significance is less in quelling the guerrillas and more in all the many things that can be done during a period of greatly diminished guerrilla activity.

Notice your use of "can be" rather than "will be" or "have been".
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2008, 11:58:08 PM »

First: by anybody. Everybody. Perception is everything in this war.

Second: I meant exactly that, though I didn't intend it as a criticism or endorsement of policy, strategy, or the success of any particular tactic. It is simply a fact that fewer explosions leads to different opportunities. Not all of them are easy, desirable, or sane, but they do include in particular the opportunity to engage in the more constructive aspects of occupation.
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Thad

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2008, 12:43:54 AM »

First: by anybody. Everybody. Perception is everything in this war.

No, it isn't, and that's the attitude that got us in this mess in the first place.

Fuck perception.  At some point somebody's going to have to start acknowledging reality.  The American public perceived that Saddam had WMD's and ties to al Qaeda, and that's how we got where we are.  It doesn't matter whether the public PERCEIVES that the surge is working, what matters is whether it actually IS.  And as IM and Brent's links point out, there's a pretty good argument to the contrary.

Now, I'll grant that if a majority of Iraqis think the American presence is responsible for the decline in violence, then that in and of itself could be an example of the surge "working" -- hearts and minds and all of that.  That's the reason for my question, "Perceived by whom?"; it's the Iraqis', not the Americans', perception that is important here.

But I see little evidence that that's the majority opinion in Iraq.  I think the majority opinion in Iraq -- and, frankly, the reality of the situation -- is that our presence is RESPONSIBLE for the violence.

McCain recently attributed the success of the Anbar Awakening to the surge, and was rapped on the knuckles for it because the Anbar Awakening began months prior.  Worse yet, he talked about how the surge had helped protect Sheik Abdul Sattar Buzaigh al-Rishawi -- if so, it did a pretty poor job, as he was assassinated.  (Lots of sources on this, but for now I'll go with Juan Cole on Alternet.)

These mistakes of McCain's are not simple gaffes.  On the subject of the war -- the thing he's building his campaign around -- he either has no idea what he's talking about, or he's lying.

Second: I meant exactly that, though I didn't intend it as a criticism or endorsement of policy, strategy, or the success of any particular tactic. It is simply a fact that fewer explosions leads to different opportunities. Not all of them are easy, desirable, or sane, but they do include in particular the opportunity to engage in the more constructive aspects of occupation.

Opportunities are great, but results are the bottom line.  The purpose of the surge was to give the Iraqi government and military breathing room to get their shit together -- and you'll recall that we stopped hearing the slogan "We'll stand down as they stand up" about the point we found out how many squads in the Iraqi army were ready for duty.

As for the government, it's divided sharply on sectarian lines, and its greatest accomplishment is to tell us it wants us out.
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Thad

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2008, 01:34:01 PM »

So, okay.

Ron Suskind has a book coming out that alleges the White House asked the CIA to forge a document supporting an Iraq/al Qaeda link.  (Numerous sources on this; I'll go with Seattle Post-Intelligencer for the link.)  His sources, Rob Richer and John Maguire, are denying it, but Suskind says he has them on tape.

The noise machine is, of course, calling this a partisan witch-hunt, which is just :disapprove:.  I don't understand how we reached a point where something like starting an intractable war based on lies can be treated as a partisan issue.  Lord knows if we ever had a Democratic President who did that, I for one wouldn't be defending him.

But since that's what it's become, that's one more reason we need Obama in the White House come January -- McCain will just continue stonewalling any attempt at Congressional investigations, and while I fear that Obama will have Ford's "let's just get past this" mentality, I also think he'll support Conyers in his investigations.

Jonathan Schwarz over at TMW has been covering the story pretty well.
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SCD

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2008, 02:35:23 PM »

Back to the "Good War", it would appear that the US military contractors are just as good at not killing our soldiers accidentally as the US military

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iKOj1Xi0Eh_CxxAES038wZSr5crg
 :facepalm:
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Catloaf

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2008, 05:54:26 PM »

Lord knows if we ever had a Democratic President who did that, I for one wouldn't be defending him.

While his foreign policy was utter crap and completely undefendable, his domestic policy was quite good.  Civil rights, and education and all that good stuff.
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Detonator

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2008, 06:47:51 PM »

Lord knows if we ever had a Democratic President who did that, I for one wouldn't be defending him.

While his foreign policy was utter crap and completely undefendable, his domestic policy was quite good.  Civil rights, and education and all that good stuff.

I... I think Thad knows that, and was just referring to the decision to invade Vietnam as indefensible, not his entire presidency.
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Thad

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2008, 10:32:39 PM »

Thank you, Det.
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Catloaf

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #77 on: August 11, 2008, 04:36:09 AM »

I wasn't meaning to argue, I was just saying.  It does seem that most unfairly ignore that stuff though.  Like a few textbooks I read. :facepalm:
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Fredward

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #78 on: August 11, 2008, 09:02:35 AM »

up here, we just focus on the fact that he yelled at our prime minister  :sadpanda:

THE GUY WON A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE, WHY WOULD YOU YELL AT HIM
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Mongrel

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2008, 03:40:26 PM »

That's okay. Trudeau got revenge on Nixon for us. Multiple times.
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