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Poll

When would you be available to play some Bronto SC2 multiplayer?

Sunday
- 8 (21.1%)
Monday
- 4 (10.5%)
Tuesday
- 6 (15.8%)
Wednesday
- 6 (15.8%)
Thursday
- 6 (15.8%)
Friday
- 3 (7.9%)
Saturday
- 5 (13.2%)

Total Members Voted: 8


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Author Topic: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll  (Read 7219 times)

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Doom

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2010, 07:51:18 PM »

Inspired by Team Void Ray I decided to pass up my remaining 30-something free babby meat league matches and do my placements.

3 slam dunk victories and... two fucking disconnects. Silver ahoy.

The first disconnect really irritated me. The guy had a very impressive Tier 1 Zealot/Stalker ball and cannons ringing his natural to spell out "No Harass Here Pal."

But it was Metalopolis and the entire back of his base, steam-cloud spot and all were unwatched. My two changelings patrolled through his base for their entire life-spans. I WAS A SINGLE NYDUS WORM FROM A TOTAL BASE WIPE. And I fucking disconnect! I also had him scouted so hard I was banging his Executor's Mom, so I had a giant hydra/ling ball waiting to show him what I think of Protoss tier 1 units. Damn it all.

The second disconnect was a bit less offensive but still lame: finish loading map, told I'm disconnected as I go to grab my starting workers.
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Friday

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2010, 01:11:12 AM »

the thing about the practice league is it isn't.

I guess you can practice build order, but that's it. They should have just not had any rocks and done faster speed, so people could get used to playing the game how it is actually played for 50 games. That would have been fine.
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Doom

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2010, 10:42:38 AM »

Oh, I'm fully aware. I just enjoyed a league that let me devour babies as I see fit. I won every round by cracking *their* rock open and harassing as I pleased.

I spent about a hundred co-op rounds learning to macro, as that's far more effective. You either survive the 3 army rape-train at 7 minutes or you lose.
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Friday

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2010, 01:22:27 PM »

so it turns out the people in gold league are nothing but relentless killing machines
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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2010, 05:06:23 PM »

bismuth league is for the cool kids
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Doom

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2010, 06:56:31 PM »

We could probably handle Gold League if we practiced SC2 at least 5 rounds a day, something reasonable but "hardcore" like that.

But Cataclysm in 2 weeks who can be fucked
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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2010, 09:02:00 PM »



LET'S GET DOWN TO BUSINESS
TO DEFEAT
THE TOSS

DID THEY SEND ME BROODLINGS
WHEN I ASKED FOR ULTRAS?

YOU'RE THE WRIGGLIEST BUNCH I EVER MET
BUT YOU CAN BET BEFORE WE'RE THROUGH
LARVA, I'LL MAKE A ZERG OUT OF YOU
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Kayin

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2010, 10:32:52 PM »

reps plz, so I can gawk at how dumb 3v3 is (and actually give advice)
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Friday

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2010, 10:36:11 PM »

keep in mind we were all rusty as shit after not playing for 2 weeks.
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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2010, 10:42:31 PM »



LET'S GET DOWN TO BUSINESS
TO DEFEAT
THE TOSS

DID THEY SEND ME BROODLINGS
WHEN I ASKED FOR ULTRAS?

YOU'RE THE WRIGGLIEST BUNCH I EVER MET
BUT YOU CAN BET BEFORE WE'RE THROUGH
LARVA, I'LL MAKE A ZERG OUT OF YOU

BE A ZERG
You must be swift as a 3/3 crackling
BE A ZERG
With all the macro of a great zerg player
BE A ZERG
With all the strength of a raging Ultra
Mysterious as the dark side of the TEEEEEEEEEMPLAR
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Doom

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2010, 11:04:49 PM »

Didn't save any Kayin, but they were basically

Game 1: get out-macroed hard by two 4 gaters and a bioball

Game 2: all 3 rush dark templars

Embarrassing shitty losses caused by not playing for two weeks.
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Kayin

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2010, 11:36:35 PM »

All replays are saved.

\Documents\StarCraft II\Accounts\#########\#########\Replays\Unsaved

Also thats part of why I hate anything over 2v2 (I kinda hate 2v2 as well but its harder for me to say theres something wrong with it). Cheeeeeese city. It's like, distills the game down to it's stupidest parts.
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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2010, 11:48:29 PM »

How is losing to 3 players DT rushing any different than losing to 1 player DT rushing?  Cheese is countered by good scouting.
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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2010, 11:50:01 PM »

Also, god forbid the build orders for 3v3 be less monolithically rigid than in 1v1.  What, your single strategy doesn't work every single time because there's more complexity to handle?
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Kayin

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2010, 12:21:42 AM »

How is losing to 3 players DT rushing any different than losing to 1 player DT rushing?  Cheese is countered by good scouting.

Concentration of force makes it a lot different. For example in 2v2, if two players 6 pool, even if scouted, one player is likely to die.

Why?

It is easier to merge offense than it is to merge defense.  The six pooling players immediately take initiative and can mass 3 players worth of strength on one point, . They can control the ramps and pick off reinforcements.  Your defenses need to be spread evenly across 3 ramps, but their offense does not. This is very basic!

Quote
The spot where we intend to fight must not be made known, for then the enemy will have to prepare against a possible attack at several different points; and his forces being thus distributed in many directions, the numbers we shall have to face at any given point will be proportionately few.

Quote
Numerical weakness comes from having to prepare against possible attacks; numerical strength from compelling our adversary to make these preparations against us. Knowing the place and time of the coming battle, we may concentrate from the greatest distances in order to fight. But if neither time nor place be known, then the left wing will be impotent to succor the right, the right equally impotent to succor the left, the van unable to relieve the rear, or the rear to support the van.

... Sun Tzu said that - and I think he knows a little more about fighting than you do, pal; because HE INVENTED IT! And he perfected it until no man could best him in Star Craft!

Unlike a 1v1 you have, especially in the early game, 3 primary points to defend, while the enemy only has to attack one of them. This situation in 1v1 only comes up when you have 3 naturals and a sizable army to defend it. That is a lot different from a single player 6 pool. 3v3 is NOT equal to 3 1v1s, balance wise. That doesn't mean said things are necessarily unbeatable or anything, but as I said, the game as a whole is sillier. To be fair, the economical damage of a 6pool means that the two surviving players have a fair shot if the dead player died slow enough, (and I admit, this is somewhat interesting), but it is in no way equivalent. DT rushing is a little less stable, but again, the same deal applies. If they do enough damage before detection shows up, it won't matter. They can come in with so many more DTs than a single rush would on a single point.

(though as a note, a more manly build would be DT, DT, Phoenixs and some observers, though this is also a valid 1v1 build vs Zerg)

Balance does not scale evenly in games. Even in a game that has a bazillion players like tf2 -- that game suffers when numbers are reduced to a certain point. Pretty much every game with asymmetrical elements has to struggle to maintain balance over different player counts. Is it really that hard to see that with increased players, the balance will get thrown out of whack more? Hell, Reapers got nerfed sheerly because double reaper pushes were almost unstoppable in 1v1. They were damn good in 1v1 early game, but people managed to figure out how to deal with them. Heck, Blizzard as said they don't really care about 3v3 (or greater) balance because it's a lost cause.

Also, god forbid the build orders for 3v3 be less monolithically rigid than in 1v1.  What, your single strategy doesn't work every single time because there's more complexity to handle?

Esperath, I know you know Starcraft, so why would you say something so entirely ignorant? Build orders do not work that way. They are not monolithic, nor is "one single strategy every time" a winning decision. Also while the amount of potential situations are exponentially more complex, that doesn't mean the DECISIONS are any more complex. I'd even consider arguing that 3v3 is less complex, gameplay wise because everything is broken down into big, basic chunks and multiple races on a team homogenize the capability of each side. And also, you're saying this while getting your heads stomped by silly stuff. Stuff like that 6pool example above is STABLE. It is a single, monolithic build that works on all maps and matchups FAAAAR better than it does in 1v1. Pretty much any 'cheese' tends to be less cheese and more stable in 3v3 (or even 2v2), while still being just as silly. Also on that topic, I have loose orders for all most matchups and distances and even for some maps. In a 3v3, your more than likely going to stick to one thing every time, until you scout something that makes you do something else. That happens in 1v1 as well, but 1v1 is discrete enough in information, reliability and nuance that you can have complex plans for every matchup and map.

Anyways, forgive me for playing the game in the way Blizzard actually had in mind when designing the game? D: I know I'm a jerk, but honestly "Hey, we're having fun, shut up" is a way better argument (and often makes me feel like a jerk!) than trying to act like things are just as legitimate (if not more legitimate!) over on silly street. It's not like I say stuff without being prepared to defend my points.
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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2010, 04:21:59 AM »

Anyways, forgive me for playing the game in the way Blizzard actually had in mind when designing the game? D: I know I'm a jerk, but honestly "Hey, we're having fun, shut up" is a way better argument (and often makes me feel like a jerk!) than trying to act like things are just as legitimate (if not more legitimate!) over on silly street. It's not like I say stuff without being prepared to defend my points.

it doensn't sound like you were having much fun at all
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Kayin

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2010, 01:01:51 PM »

what
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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2010, 01:27:40 PM »

Kayin, everyone knows that you hate fun.
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Kayin

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2010, 01:34:56 PM »

Thats funny, because I don't like 2v2 or 3v3 because I don't find them fun. Strange how that works!
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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2010, 02:09:26 PM »

If a technique gives you a consistent strategic advantage, it's no longer cheese, it's a valid strategy.  If a strategy provides an unfair advantage, then it's either up to the game designer (Blizzard) to fix it, or for the game organizer (in this case, generally also Blizzard) to ban it.  The fact that you see such a huge variety of "cheese" suggests that there is no single best way to play large games, but there are lots of viable paths that simply aren't available for use in single player.

The point is that large games play differently, and they require you to accept both imperfections in your teammates and imperfections in communication on both sides.  Oh no, people are using crap-tier 1v1 units!  Guess what, they work well in 3v3 and they still have viable counters!  It's just that there are so many viable builds that you need to be more flexible to deal with it, and even so, you won't always win, all of the time.

Since we're quoting stuff, I'd compare 1v1 to team games like this:

1v1:

Rocky had come equipped with a gun
To shoot off the legs of his rival
His rival it seems had broken his dreams
By stealing the girl of his fancy.
...
Rocky burst in and grinning a grin
He said Danny boy this is a showdown
But Daniel was hot-he drew first and shot
And Rocky collapsed in the corner.

-Winston Churchill

Team games:

What would you think if I sang out of tune,
Would you stand up and walk out on me.
Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song,
And I'll try not to sing out of key.
Oh I get by with a little help from my friends,
Mmm,I get high with a little help from my friends,
Mmm, I'm gonna try with a little help from my friends.

-Hitler, apparently

I feel like the best argument you can make (and did point out at one point) is that the game is balanced for 1v1 and that this doesn't scale, so you can't correct deficiencies in the team games without screwing up 1v1.  The fact that not every 3v3 team or 4v4 team is playing the exact same build or set of builds argues against that.  The combinatorial complexity of large, mixed armies, makes it more difficult to build a stalwart bastion against all comers, and I think that's great!  The other thing, which is also true, is that team games are less popular and don't reach the 'optimal' plateau as quickly, so maybe there are 'optimal' builds that just haven't been discovered yet.
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