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Poll

When would you be available to play some Bronto SC2 multiplayer?

Sunday
- 8 (21.1%)
Monday
- 4 (10.5%)
Tuesday
- 6 (15.8%)
Wednesday
- 6 (15.8%)
Thursday
- 6 (15.8%)
Friday
- 3 (7.9%)
Saturday
- 5 (13.2%)

Total Members Voted: 8


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Author Topic: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll  (Read 7235 times)

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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #80 on: November 19, 2010, 02:19:07 PM »

While most cheeses are not directly comparable to multiple instances of 1v1s, the 3 DT rush really is.  Each player scouts one enemy.  Each reports that their chosen enemy is fast-teching.  Each player chooses their own opponent and punishes them individually, as would happen in a 1v1.  Team offense simply isn't the way to deal with this cheese.

At this point, you could go "well, maybe one of them will survive long enough to get their DTs out", but at this point, you only need a single player with detection.

The main reason that I snipe at you so much even though we're both very friendly is that I get really tired of your competitive elitism.  The "stupidest elements" of the game are fun for the people who choose to partake in it.  You challenge my "ignorance" when it is simply true that 3v3 adds more potential complexity to a game than does a 1v1.  Yes, you need a flexible build in 1v1, but it's the same give and take in every game.  You lead, scout, counter, and continue to counter along the decision tree as information comes in.  There's nothing wrong with that, but the decision tree is simply bushier when you have three armies a piece and the added chaos that comes along with it.

You play the version of the game where you get immediate reinforcement: it is clear that the more skilled single player wins over the less skilled single player, with reasonably little variance.  This is more difficult to assay in a team, but through enough iterations, the league system still manages to do that.  The issue is that there is more variance within individual games.  Instead of having a 95%/5% split for a given skill disparity, it may be more like 80%/20%.  If you play team games, you simply have to accept that your imperfections in communication, combined with the added complexity of viable builds, simply leads to more randomness in the individual game results. 

While I hate the "blue-shell effect" as much as anyone else, this isn't an issue of the game providing a means for simply negating the advantages of the most skilled, but rather providing a larger space in which to potentially beat your opponent.  Yes, you can choose the same cheese every single time, and once you actually get into a decent league, you'll still win your 20% of the games, but you'll asymptote somewhere mediocre.  If your team has fun continuing to do that same cheese, fine!  They can enjoy sitting in silver or gold executing the same plan for the rush of winning 1 in 5 games.  Others can play how they see fit, and the space in which they can execute viable builds is simply larger than afforded in 1v1.



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Kayin

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2010, 05:20:45 PM »

Quote
Implication that valid Strategies = Good Gameplay

While this is true, the issue is no one really cares about making 3v3 a good, proper game. A lot of things aren't "cheese" in 3v3 but that doesn't necessarily impy that they aren't bad or degenerate. If a strategy won 100% of the time, it wouldn't be cheese, but it would be horrible for the game. Obviously 3v3 isn't at this in that bad shape, but just because something is valid doesn't mean it isn't degenerate. No one really cares about fixing the more numerous versions of the game either. No ones trying to fix FFA either, where the best strategy is to never attack. These are options added to the game so people can have fun and mess around, but they cease being refined gameplay experiences.

Quote
Implication that more build order = More Balanced/Better

This is a bit silly. More isn't inherently better and also most of these builds are accomplishing the same thing. Are you rushing so you can do damage and join your armies up before your opponent? Are you doing some mass are or cloak? Are you doing a bunch of all-ins across all players? The compositions can be more complicated, but the actual decisions are pretty straight forward.

Quote
Implication that different means equal.

"The point is that large games play differently, and they require you to accept both imperfections in your teammates and imperfections in communication on both sides."

The problem with this is the game isn't designed for it unlike say DOTA/LOL/HON/Random MOBA. That is a fine thing to base a game around, but Starcraft was not designed to create interesting decisions and encourage team work in 3v3s. It barely can do it in 2v2.

Quote
You challenge my "ignorance" when it is simply true that 3v3 adds more potential complexity to a game than does a 1v1.  Yes, you need a flexible build in 1v1, but it's the same give and take in every game.  You lead, scout, counter, and continue to counter along the decision tree as information comes in.  There's nothing wrong with that, but the decision tree is simply bushier when you have three armies a piece and the added chaos that comes along with it

I challenge your ignorance in saying 1v1 games are monolithic. Also while on paper, your right, the game is more complicated as I said. There are more possible game states. But that doesn't mean the game is ACTUALLY more complex. an FPS has near infinite game states, but they cannot all be considered. Conversely a game like chess has complexity that is close to the limit of human optimization (though still exceeds it). So are the practical decisions any more interesting? I'd argue no, as games tend to come down to more extreme strategies on average and the value of optimizing for various situations are reduced at the micro end of play (while being mostly the same in in the macro sense).

Quote
While most cheeses are not directly comparable to multiple instances of 1v1s, the 3 DT rush really is.  Each player scouts one enemy.  Each reports that their chosen enemy is fast-teching.  Each player chooses their own opponent and punishes them individually, as would happen in a 1v1.  Team offense simply isn't the way to deal with this cheese.

At this point, you could go "well, maybe one of them will survive long enough to get their DTs out", but at this point, you only need a single player with detection.

DT is more similar than most other builds for sure. My concern was more to the fact that most 3v3 build are "cheese" builds. 3x DT might actually be cheese, but still, it's not the same. First off, it's not so simple as saying "oh he's teching and I know he is so he loses". Any good tech build can hold off most aggression without dying, especially considering the dubious decision to attack each opponent at the same time, negating the advantage of your team taking the initiative (being able to consolidate forces). You could obtain 3 contains, but theres no way of to always be sure what tech they're doing. Anyways, 3 players worth of DT can, more so than a single player DT build, obtain a much larger amount of map control  and, if not every player is prepared to get detection in time, spread it even thinner than a normal game. They can also do much more damage in their initial push than they could with a single DT build. If the DTs go undetected, a mass of DTs can kill off a player before they can respond with detection, leaving the other two players to fend them off. It is similar and it is not strictly the same. It does seem like a pretty silly all in though.

Quote
The main reason that I snipe at you so much even though we're both very friendly is that I get really tired of your competitive elitism.  The "stupidest elements" of the game are fun for the people who choose to partake in it.

I might be sassy about this but I tend to avoid having outward contempt for the PEOPLE who play a game a certain why but I feel totally justified dissing on a game. Mario Party is a piece of shit, but people have fun playing that. I still feel totally fair in saying 3v3, design wise, is a shitty game type focusing more on shenanigans and extreme strategies. That doesn't mean it can't be fun for people. People find 2Fort fun in TF2. I have fun with stupid things too quite often! And hey, I was asking for replays to give advice and be helpful -- I just also took a pot shot at the legitimacy of the gametype. I don't think that is entirely unfair.


Anyways thank you for actually defending your self and not rolling over, I hate it when people do that. You have some good points, but I disagree with the implications. I understand why that would be fun, but in terms of a polished game experience and as a legitimate gametype, I would disagree, but whatever. I try not to criticize people for how they have fun (usually!),  but I feel no remorse for hating on games and game types. Liking such things is in no way a negative statement on ones character.
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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2010, 05:31:02 PM »

I'm not going to respond to everything right now, but your 'summaries' of my stances expose your elitism and your critical flaw in understanding my thinking.  I never argued that team games were better or superior to 1v1, but rather that they simply are a valid and fully functional alternative, and are fun to those who choose to partake in them.  I am not even trying to make an 'equivalent' comparison; the game mode is available, utilized, and fun, especially for those who enjoy exploring the larger game space that team games make available. 

Yes, it's a lot like generalizing chess out to many dimensions (insert MSPA image here).  Humans can't handle the full complexity of the space and develop reductionist strategies to get from point A to point B.  And yet, there are still more viable paths from point A to point B, and more skilled teams will still be able to utilize a larger portion of the gameplay space and effectively deny a greater number of the opponent's paths.  I also don't feel that tightness of gameplay necessarily equates to better.  As long as you have reasonable control over the clusterfuck, greater skill will still statistically prevail, if not in every single skirmish.
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Kayin

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2010, 05:37:42 PM »

To be clear, I can disagree with

Quote
valid and fully functional alternative

and not disagree with

Quote
and are fun to those who choose to partake in them.  I am not even trying to make an 'equivalent' comparison; the game mode is available, utilized, and fun.

which is what my position is. Unless by "valid and Fully Functional" you mean "a feature in the game I can use", then whatever, I got no issue with that statement.
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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2010, 05:39:55 PM »

Yeah, this is why I expanded out my edit. :3
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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2010, 05:43:54 PM »

Also, I feel like Starcraft team gaming is well-suited for league or round-robin competitive structures, but not the elimination style tourneys that dominate the 1v1 competitive league.  Blizzard specifically plays up this point by explicitly supporting the league structure, while outside entities still need to run the 1v1 tourneys.
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Kayin

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2010, 06:41:36 PM »

I'm just going to throw out an example  to show that this isn't fueled on elitism. I played Smash Bros Melee in a competitive fashion. I would also say its dumb and not good in the same way I would 3v3 in starcraft. The options are merely an afterthought and theres no good structure or design to anything. Its fun, and even playable, but it's still dumb. This can work both both ways.

It isn't competitive elitism, it's game design elitism.
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Esperath

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2010, 11:28:03 PM »

Quote
[23:19]   <Esperath>   FRIDAY AND I MAKE GOOD TEAM
[23:19]   <Esperath>   I really love having those forward pylons
[23:22]   <BongoBill>   Esperath likes his traffic cones to be sexually assertive.
[23:23]   <Koah>   Esperath likes his traffic cones like he likes his women.
[23:23]   <Koah>   Impacting the bumper of a car going at high speed.
[23:24]   <Esperath>   stationary and providing food
[23:25]   <Friday>   I LIKE MY PYLONS LIKE I LIKE MY WOMEN
[23:25]   <Friday>   TRAP CARD
[23:25]   <Friday>   OH NO
[23:26]   <BongoBill>   OH YES
[23:26]   <Romosome>   I like my pylons like I like my women
[23:26]   <BongoBill>   bright orange
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Friday

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #88 on: November 27, 2010, 08:42:05 PM »

got promoted to Silver League today.

also am trying out Terran builds. Nothing amazing so far but goddamn is MMM good.

Hell, a lot of times just marines and marauders is enough to crack people.
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Friday

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #89 on: January 27, 2011, 07:20:08 PM »

Esper and I did some more 2v2s for the first time in a long time

LESSON ONE: why don't you have detection WHY DON'T YOU HAVE DETECTION
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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #90 on: September 24, 2011, 02:13:33 PM »

I didn't see anyone else post it, but Friday, Romo and I just placed Platinum in 3v3 today.
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Friday

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2011, 02:34:04 PM »

my favorite moment was when I looked at the minimap and red's base was entirely destroyed by your reapers

reapers gonna raep
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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #92 on: September 24, 2011, 08:57:47 PM »

And I just placed Silver 1v1. Not as impressive, but hey I finally got through my placement matches and I actually won the last two.
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Friday

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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #93 on: September 25, 2011, 05:40:02 AM »

Like I said before, it's much easier to place higher in team games. If you look at the average player's account, usually all their team leagues are a league or two higher than their 1v1.
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Re: Starcraft II: Brontos of Liberty - Friend Info and Gaming Night Poll
« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2011, 06:52:28 AM »

Most of the people we lose to in 2v2/3v3 are in like diamond 1v1.  :humpf:
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