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Author Topic: News from the North  (Read 40717 times)

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LaserBeing

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2008, 09:10:33 PM »

So is Canada fucked or saved.

It's the same as it was before the election. Basically this was just a huge waste of time.

So, business as usual, really.
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François

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2008, 09:16:55 PM »

So is Canada fucked or saved.

It's the same as it was before the election. Basically this was just a huge waste of time and money.

Harper is a smarter version of Bush with a vastly smaller army. Also he's harmless to anyone who doesn't live in Canada or Afghanistan.
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SCD

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2008, 10:09:57 PM »

Four more years!

Four more years!



So, do we want to start a pool on how long before the next round of elections?

I say two years less a month
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James Edward Smith

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2008, 10:23:22 PM »

What a waste of money. They could have phoned me up in September and I would have told them these exact results after consulting a sheep dog. *sigh*

I'm guessing we'll be back here again in about a year and a half again. The two things I pray to happen in the interm; Dion can some how transform into a brilliant and inspiring leader and win a minority or the Liberals can cast him out and elect Bob Ray as party leader like they should have done in the first place. If either of those things happen, then the Liberals would stand a good chance of forming a coalition government with all the left leaning parties and we'd finally be off this election mary-go-round. Unfortunately, I don't see either of those things actually happening, and I don't think that today's Dion will ever beat Steven Harper in a general election. I also see no way for Harper to win a majority or form a coalition.

My question is, why don't the Liberals, NDP and Bloc just form a coalition right now? It seems to me that if Dion and Layton actually believe any of the bullshit they said during this campaign, it would be in their best interests to at least try. Would the Bloc ever be open to such an arangement?
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Arc

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2008, 10:30:23 PM »

Dion is finished.
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LaserBeing

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2008, 11:09:34 PM »

So I was flipping past CBC today and I actually saw a trailer for a Canadian movie, in real theatres! Advertised on television!

I was like, WWI movie? Nobody makes WWI movies. Who would make a WWI movie? And then I saw Paul Gross and I was like "oh yeah! WE would!"
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Kashan

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2008, 12:30:14 AM »

Quote from:   :kashan:
So you would vote for somebody with a contrary ethical system if they were the only cantidate that wasn't religious? Or would just not vote?

I'm sure if Thad was here, he'd mock you for throwing such a false dilema in my face, Kashan.


It's only false in that you haven't been confronted with the exact circumstance I described, it's a perfectly possible dilema to face. Karl Rove is an Atheist while Barack Obama is an avid church-goer for example. And I didn't say you would do anything, I was asking what you would do given a certain situation. You stated as an absolute that you don't vote for religious people (anymore). I found this surprising and was trying to figure whether you actually meant that you simply wouldn't vote for a religious person under any circumstances in any race. If so, that would make the two options I mentioned the only options given the.

75% of Canadians believe homosexuals should have the same rights as everybody else, and 83% of Canadians are Religious. Clearly there's some crossover there.

I'm happy to hear that religiosity isn't the most important issue to you, and that you have other reasons for not voting for the NDP and Liberal candidates, but in your initial post you simply stated that you weren't voting for them because they were avid church goers. I have trouble viewing that as open minded.

You have problems with fundamentalist religion, that's fine. I do too. It's hateful and intolerant. But holding it against somebody that they're religious regardless of how they approach it is intolerant too.

I'm curious, how prevalent fundamentalism is in Canada?
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2008, 03:46:36 AM »

So is Canada fucked or saved.

We continue to cruise along in the realm of insufferable mediocrity.

Do I still want to go there if these elections turn out... red?

Since it was a Canadian election, nobody won (haha, you think I'm, kidding).

Oh and our colours are reversed from yours: Blue = Conservative, red = Liberals. I've always enjoyed the fact that Canada has some of the most boring, uncreative names in the world for it's political parties.

So is Canada fucked or saved.

It's the same as it was before the election. Basically this was just a huge waste of time.

So, business as usual, really.

This ^^^

So is Canada fucked or saved.

It's the same as it was before the election. Basically this was just a huge waste of time and money.

Harper is a smarter version of Bush with a vastly smaller army. Also he's harmless to anyone who doesn't live in Canada or Afghanistan.

Pretty accurate, though Bush is too dumb to be as mean-spirited and petty as Harper.
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2008, 04:05:39 AM »

What a waste of money. They could have phoned me up in September and I would have told them these exact results after consulting a sheep dog. *sigh*

I'm guessing we'll be back here again in about a year and a half again. The two things I pray to happen in the interm; Dion can some how transform into a brilliant and inspiring leader and win a minority or the Liberals can cast him out and elect Bob Ray as party leader like they should have done in the first place. If either of those things happen, then the Liberals would stand a good chance of forming a coalition government with all the left leaning parties and we'd finally be off this election mary-go-round. Unfortunately, I don't see either of those things actually happening, and I don't think that today's Dion will ever beat Steven Harper in a general election. I also see no way for Harper to win a majority or form a coalition.

My question is, why don't the Liberals, NDP and Bloc just form a coalition right now? It seems to me that if Dion and Layton actually believe any of the bullshit they said during this campaign, it would be in their best interests to at least try. Would the Bloc ever be open to such an arangement?

There have been several articles at length on how and when a coalition can claim legitimacy under the Canadian parliamentary system. First, as the winning party, the Conservatives must be allowed the chance to govern first - that's the law and the consitutation. So, the Conservatives would have to be defeated in a confidence vote. Simple enough, sure, but still not something to be dismissed, seeing as Harper's gotten good at loading votes of confidence. 
Next, there's the issue of the popular vote. In most previous coalitions, the coalition members could claim the majority of the popular vote - but the Liberals didn't do so well in that regard and the Bloc's vote is highly concentrated, technically they would have a collective superiority, but it's kind of a technicality in this case. Finally, in all prevous coalition governments in Canada, the parties had drafted a written agreement promising a period of stability - this may be difficult for any group involving the Bloc (and any written deals with the Bloc may be poison for any parties outside of Quebec). Don't underestimate Layton's ego causing trouble here either.

Why all the nonsense? Because under the Canadian system, the game is actually stacked against coalitions. A coalition must prove to the Governor-General or Lieutenant-Governor that the coalition they propose is better for the consituents than enother election. Usually, this means that the coalition members can strongly argue that they deserve a chance to govern legitimately. That usually means a good strong, popular leader (uh oh, Dion!), a share of the popular vote that can't be questioned, and  something to prove that the deal will guarantee political stability in an uncertain time.

The best example I can think of is the Ontario "coalition" between David Peterson's Liberals and Bob Rae's NDP. Actually, on that amusing note, Bob Rae has been involved in two of the most famous falls of minority governments in recent Canadian history. Besides the 1985 masterstroke, when he was a federal MP in 1979, he's the one who made the motion to pull the plug on Joe Clark.

Dion is finished.

Not necessarily. The party is broke (again) and tired. Basically, if they want another leadership convention, they'll have to decide to hand the house to Harper for at least 2 years. Privately, the Liberals were hoping that if they lost, the Conservatives would get a majority, giveing them time and space to rebuild (and clearly branding Dion as a loser).

Maybe a true genius idea would be a Liberal-Conservative coalition? If either party would swallow it, which I doubt.
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #69 on: October 15, 2008, 04:21:24 AM »

I'm curious, how prevalent fundamentalism is in Canada?

Suprisingly frequent, but since Canada has so many different religious and cultural groups, the effect is minimal, since no group ever masses numbers beyond "angry local church group, where most of the meeting hall is empty".
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François

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #71 on: October 15, 2008, 08:20:00 AM »

Harper is a smarter version of Bush with a vastly smaller army. Also he's harmless to anyone who doesn't live in Canada or Afghanistan.

Pretty accurate, though Bush is too dumb to be as mean-spirited and petty as Harper.

Heh, I almost typed "Add a hint of Vlad Putin-brand control freak in the mix."
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James Edward Smith

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #72 on: October 15, 2008, 12:07:44 PM »

Quote from: Iron Mongrel
That stuff he said about coalition problems

See, this is what I figured pretty much, but I think some of those conditions are fulfilled. The big one being the fact that any coalition we end up with can claim it will create political stability. I'm pretty sure everyone is sick and tired of elections. Too many people hate the Liberals nowadays to ever vote them in over the conservatives, and Steven Harper is not willing to compromise on any of his policies enough to appeal to moderate Canadians. A coalition is the only way I can see us having a stable government.

The problem is, we're fucked. Harper is too much of an asshole to enter into a coalition with the Liberals. He would never compromise that much, not when he's in the lead. On the other side you have the Bloc being a big bull in the House of Commons china shop that no one can really negotiate with to any productive end. Also, I have the sneaking suspicion that the Liberals trying to form a coalition that involved Jack Layton would be just as hard as trying to form one with Steven Harper. Why? I have no idea. I honestly have no idea what Jack's problem is, but he just seems like he will never face reality and help the other left wing or moderate parties to bring down the conservatives. All he ever cares about is strengthening the NDP's position, come hell or high water. I think it's a childish attitude that really doesn't serve Canada or Canadians in any way.
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Arc

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #73 on: October 15, 2008, 01:07:20 PM »

Coalitions will lead you down the path to our two-party system. Instead, breakup the Conservative monopoly and work from there.
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SCD

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #74 on: October 15, 2008, 04:14:46 PM »

You won't see that happening until they are unseated from office.  So long as the Right Honourable Stephen Harper maintains strict heiarchical-style leadership over his party, and continues to gain seats while in the throne the Conservatives will be a bitch to split up considering that unity of the center-right is the only thing that keeps them in office.
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #75 on: October 15, 2008, 06:20:35 PM »

You won't see that happening until they are unseated from office.  So long as the Right Honourable Stephen Harper maintains strict heiarchical-style leadership over his party, and continues to gain seats while in the throne the Conservatives will be a bitch to split up considering that unity of the center-right is the only thing that keeps them in office.

True. Also, the Conservatives BURN with the memory of the Jean-Chretien years. Even if the "reform" and "Red-Tory PC" wings have a horrible falling out, it would take a self-defeating troll of David Orchard-like proportions to even THINK of splitting off a new Conservative party. And even if they did it would have few adherents.

No-one wants to risk spending 15 years out in the cold again.

Anyway...

I think you folks are worrying too much.

I think that a restoration of the old order (alternating Tory/Liberal majority governments with minorities once in a while and the NDP occasionally trolling) is well within the realm of possibility. It just takes one little thing:

Either party needs a leader someone gives a damn about.

It has been said an innumerable number of times. Dion is likeable, able, and smart, but has all the leadership qualities of a small wet terrier. He is about as inspirational as a bowl of lukewarm oatmeal.

Worst of all, his weakness in English kills him. Not because he can't communicate, but because the man is FUCKING TERRIFIED of misspeaking in English. Anytime he has to speak in english, it destroys his confidence. The man actually can display some fire, but he just can't get over that hump.

Contrast that to our old friend Jean C, who's english was far worse but who refused to let that slow him down. He was a firey troll from hell and an ugly, dirty street fighter, and damn did I love watching him twist all of Parliment round his little finger - twice before breakfast alone.

On the other side we have a Prime Minister who's best hope is to be remembered as a small-minded, robotic bully. Stevie is more hated on a personal level then almost any PM in memory. In fact, he's more despised then even Brian Mulroney was after he introduced the GST. And yet he's had no policy failures (not that he's had any victories either, mind you), no, Stevie manages this on personality alone. Because he's basically a jerk.

In fact, that lost him the majority. If it wasn't for his entirely spurious and spiteful (not to mention fairly random) cuts to arts programs, he likely would have been able to take enough seats in Quebec to win. Or at least come desperately close. He spent two years parroting about how Quebec was important, without ever actually understanding anything about them. The thing is, he's like that with everyone. It was just Quebec that tripped him up.

And Jack? The thing about Jack is that he looks good - as compared to the two superstars above. See, Jack is that guy you knew in high school or college, the smug know-it-all, and even if he seems okay on the surface, on a base level a lot of people get the vibe. He's the slick snake-oil salesman and the preaching organic vegan all in one man. What's not to love?

Jack is a charismatic guy. He could have had a lot of traction in another party - maybe even taken the leadership (god knows it wouldn't have been THAT hard). Why did jack pick the NDP? Principles? Hah! Look at Bob Rae! Now there's a man who has grown enough to just come out and admit that he just wanted to take charge and get something fucking done. Why did Jack choose the NDP? I'll tell you why: Moral Superiority.

As the leader of the NDP, Jack can fight the good fight forever! And he'll never ever ever have to really back it up! He can flex his muscle and take the party to almost unprecedented heights - 37 seats, what a powerhouse! What a MAN! This is what gets Jack off (hur hur), of being the 'good guy', of playing hero. But the problem is that Jack's ego is so goddamn monstrous, that that's all he's doing is playing. The citizens of Canada are just mobs in his goddamn personal MMO.

When Albertans complain that people from Ontario are arrogant, self-satisfied, condescending dicks, it's people like Jack that embody everything they think about.

So.

These are the leaders of our major parties. We don't need another Trudeau, to dazzle people and pull the rug out from under everyone in the blink of an eye. ANYONE of real, solid true quality will do.

Give me Clark, give me Pearson, give me Jean Chretien, give me Paul Martin (oh god, I'd KILL for Paul Martin right now!), give me Laurier, I'd cry hot tears for a Stanfield or a St-Laurent, hell, I'd even take Borden or Mackenzie King if necessary right now (though not necessarily Borden or Mackenzie King).

As has been said, Canada is a friendly dictatorship. And if you want to be dictator, then by god, you need to be better at it than Stevie or Stephane. One of the most heartening things about Canadian politics is that Canadians are documented as having the lowest level of party loyalty of any democratic nation in the entire western world. In my mind, this is one of our finest achievements - BUT it comes at a price. No party will ever truly succeed in Canada without a damn good leader. The whole enterprise hinges on that one thing and right, we are hurting. The electorate has nowhere to turn and our political climate and public policy are aimless and drifting.

I don't know if we'll get someone of Obama-calibre leadership anytime soon (or at all), but dammit that's what's needed. This just isn't a country where a political party can cruise along under a crappy leader. Unfortunately, that's what the land of perpetual mediocrity has right now. God help us all.



in before tl;dr
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #76 on: October 15, 2008, 06:36:23 PM »

You know, its funny. Koipond and I were actually discussing Gilles Duceppe today. Once the separatist fear that surrounds him in english Canada recedes, you actually really begin to appreciate the guy.

Sure, everyone here but Zed would disagree with his most cherished opinion, but he's a warm likeable guy. He has more honest charisma than all the other major party leaders put togther, he works hard both supporting his own constituancy and works hard supporting his fellows in theirs. He's a stong leader without being overbearing and he's friendly without being a pushover. He confident, comfortable and knows how to fight dirty and use the rules when he needs to. Unlike Jack he has no illusions about his place and the place of his party in the federal parliament and doesn't waste all of his time on delusions of grandeur. He tends to have solid plans and defined goals (I mean OTHER than the obvious one) and works steadily towards those goals, with some solid successes under his belt. He's taken a party who's raison-d'étre is at an all-time low, and not only kept his party relevant, but kept it healthy and strong. And he's managed to stay away from shower caps for years now.

I have no trouble at all understanding why a non-separatist Quebecer would vote for this guy. Too bad the other parties can't get that message.
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SCD

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #77 on: October 15, 2008, 08:04:02 PM »

give me Jean Chretien

No.  He is the reason why every firearm owner and collector in Canada went Alliance and donated in droves

And yes, I pine for Martin as well.  When the cretin butchered the military budget and equipment wise while stretching them out on deployment levels which rival today's without even making many meetings with the CDS at the time let alone visiting NDHQ at all, Martin played the symbolism card by taking a tour in the big grey building on his first day in office and brought a politically volitiale Chief of Defense staff who's own approval ratings were not only higher than any PM, but even of the Pope (source:  Economist).

The guy had a lot of foresight and was the reason why our entry in the CIA world factbook includes the phrase " Top-notch fiscal management has produced consecutive balanced budgets since 1997".  That being said, the major issue with him is that he made everyone a priority without too much focus and results. 

Nice guy, tried to help everybody. 

I still spit at the very mention of Cretien.
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #78 on: October 16, 2008, 04:05:41 AM »

Well, you don't have to agree with all of his policies - or all my choices. I liked Chretien because I enjoy a streak of devious intelligence in my leaders. Though for the record, I think any kind of gun registry is a fools game and a waste of everyone's time and money. The long-gun registry doubly so. I mean, it doesn't even make a good tax grab for fuck's sake. It's just that those aren't priority issues for me, as I don't own a gun of ANY kind.

Anyway, more news this morning: They don't waste any time, do they? Perhaps I was wrong on the Dion item.
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Fredward

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2008, 06:50:36 AM »

Quote
British Columbia's Liberal Premier, Gordon Campbell, said voters in his province clearly were not impressed by Mr. Dion. “We can't underestimate the fact that, frankly, Mr. Dion's leadership did not resonate with British Columbians. [Stephen] Harper's did.”

What they fail to mention is that the BC Liberals haven't been associated with the federal Liberals since the eighties, and now have a completely different political leaning. :facepalm:
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