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Author Topic: Go Make Me a Sandwich  (Read 4830 times)

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sei

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2011, 07:34:39 PM »

Not really seeing it here: Cards with art by Wayne Reynolds.

CBF to type in URL from an image.
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Classic

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2011, 07:42:56 PM »

There is also a problem(?) in that women (like men) like to choose attractive avatars for themselves. Even without the fact that people have, at least for a generation, grown up internalizing male gaze, to a degree women also seem to enjoy the exaggeration of female characteristics. There is a chance that the choice to exaggerate sex isn't an attempt at objectification of women, but an attempt at wish fulfillment for women.
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Büge

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2011, 07:47:50 PM »

Not really seeing it here: Cards with art by Wayne Reynolds.

CBF to type in URL from an image.

Aven Fleetwing
Call To Glory
Facevaulter
Goldmeadow Stalwart
Gustrider Exuberant
Ink-Eyes
Kinsbaile Cavalier
Kor Hookmaster
Madrush Cyclops
Marsh Flitter
Turntimber Ranger
Wild Nacatl

So roughly 14% of Reynolds's MTG portfolio consists of airplaning.
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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2011, 03:49:08 AM »

Not really seeing it here: Cards with art by Wayne Reynolds.

CBF to type in URL from an image.

Aven Fleetwing
Call To Glory
Facevaulter
Goldmeadow Stalwart
Gustrider Exuberant
Ink-Eyes
Kinsbaile Cavalier
Kor Hookmaster
Madrush Cyclops
Marsh Flitter
Turntimber Ranger
Wild Nacatl

So roughly 14% of Reynolds's MTG portfolio consists of airplaning.

Surely you're joking.
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Disposable Ninja

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2011, 05:07:31 AM »

I typed in that website the image was talking about

http://magiccards.info/query?q=a%3A%22Wayne+Reynolds%22&s=cname&v=card&p=1  <-The website

I counted 43 out of 93 pictures wherein the subject had airplane arms.
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Zaratustra

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2011, 05:18:30 AM »

The point I do agree with is that many MMOs have the dudes clad in mountains of leather and iron, and the girls in some skimpy piece that lets some flesh see through. (Always white flesh, of course.)  Did the artists skip life drawing when a dude was posing?

Mongrel

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2011, 05:55:22 AM »

A lot of them, yes.

I can enjoy the look of a nice body of any gender, so getting them both right is important to me. But I can't say as that's true for most.

One thing I will say: Without a doubt, the artists who seem to be best at capturing the true female form are women. get more of these and you'll see better results (and I assure you that they will still be sexy fun results).

Unfortunately, many nerd-property companies seem to have gone in the other direction, slipping further and further towards tacitly admitting "Well, actually we're just selling porn to people who don't want to admit to themselves they're buying porn".
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Thad

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2011, 08:55:55 AM »

The weird thing is, decrying "sexy" (or revealing would be more accurate? but not always the case...) clothing and design as slutty and how that's a bad thing is kind of an anti-feminist stance, anyway.  Slut-shaming is one of the big hurdles that movement has spent decades trying to leap.

The comparison is problematic because we're not talking about real people here.  These aren't empowered women who decided to flaunt their sexuality.  They're not even human.  They're cartoons.

I think your point would be apt if the artist were female, but since we're talking about a male artist I really don't think it's fair to compare it to slut-shaming.

Anyhow.  Having chewed it over a bit, on the whole I understand the blog's point but, like everybody else, find the tone utterly off-putting.  I mean, I'm the last guy in the world who should be saying "Don't be insulting and condescending toward people you disagree with"; I just think it's a matter of degree.

If you're looking at, say, Rob Liefeld, or whoever the hell designed the Bratz, then the tone of the article is absolutely appropriate.  That's self-evidently ugly shit.

But precisely BECAUSE Reynolds's (alleged) bias is more subtle, the response to it should be correspondingly measured.

I'm not going to take the tack that the writer should ignore guys like Reynolds and only go after more obvious, overt sexism -- going after more difficult and less obvious targets is actually perfectly reasonable, and I DO think frequent and casual cleavage and midriffs do exhibit a casual sexism even if it's not nearly as bad as the norm.  It's a perfectly valid topic for discussion.  But again, the fact that it's not as bad as the norm means the criticism shouldn't be as strong as for the norm; if she'd addressed the whole thing as "Hey guys, this is still an issue right here" instead of being so damn nasty about it, it would be a lot easier to acknowledge her point.

There's also the issue of going directly after the artist and not spending much time acknowledging editorial pressure.  Sex sells, and there's a whole lot of pressure from editorial/marketing/the target audience to play it up.

One thing I will say: Without a doubt, the artists who seem to be best at capturing the true female form are women. get more of these and you'll see better results (and I assure you that they will still be sexy fun results).

Fair, but there are plenty of men who draw good-looking-not-too-exploitative women even in the ghetto that is American comics: Los Bros Hernandez, Mike Allred, and Terry Moore, off the top of my head.  (Course, it's telling that all of them made their careers doing creator-owned stuff, and have only dabbled in Big Two superhero books.)
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Mongrel

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2011, 08:58:20 AM »

I guess I'm not speaking so much about non-exploitative images per se (though women artists inherently combat this), as I am the female ability to create renditions of the female form that are both more accurate and more pleasing.
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Thad

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2011, 09:19:41 AM »

I think the four dudes I mentioned are all pretty good at that, though.
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jsnlxndrlv

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2011, 09:44:40 AM »

I take it the tone argument isn't considered an invalid rhetorical strategy around here, then.
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LaserBeing

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2011, 09:51:43 AM »

I understand that sexism is a problem but can't we just balance the scales by adding more sexy guys instead of having nobody be sexy, ever?
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Beat Bandit

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2011, 10:02:29 AM »

Okay I reread Thad's post just to make sure he didn't say anything stupid.

I take it not knowing the difference between tone argument and having to draw a fucking red circle around what should be offending you so you don't miss it isn't considered stupid in newbie land then.

I understand that sexism is a problem but can't we just balance the scales by adding more sexy guys instead of having nobody be sexy, ever?
This, pretty much.

Along with learning that warrior women would in fact wear full plate, artists need to realize that male rogues would not.
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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2011, 10:18:14 AM »

I take it the tone argument isn't considered an invalid rhetorical strategy around here, then.

I guess being upset at someone choosing a relatively inoffensive artist as a target for bile isn't too far removed from the "tone argument". Aren't the assertions that someone doesn't deserve this criticism and that some of the criticism itself is reminiscent of anti-feminist concepts separate and different enough that counting them as sister objections is spurious?

I can't be annoyed at someone for "not getting" the premise of a fetish on display (WTF3) and complaining about a "superficial" necessity of those premises instead of their core? I want to believe that there's a difference between being upset at the intellectual source of rancor rather than the rancor itself.


PS:
Doesn't the "tone argument" betray traditional, feminine gender-norms? I wonder why that's not mentioned.
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jsnlxndrlv

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2011, 10:19:39 AM »

If there's a line between what Thad posted and the archetypical tone argument that causes feminist crusaders to throw down the red card and stop listening to a word you say, I can't see it. This lead me to believe that we as a community do not support the "tone arguments only serve to derail the attack" argument. I wanted to confirm this, because I tentatively agree.
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Beat Bandit

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2011, 10:34:52 AM »

So... you can't see the difference between people commenting on how her examples are shit compared to just her attitude?
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Thad

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2011, 11:08:58 AM »

I take it the tone argument isn't considered an invalid rhetorical strategy around here, then.

Well, like most things, it has its time and place.  I'm not using it to derail an argument I can't win on facts and logic, I'm using it to determine why I find the blog so off-putting even though I think the basic facts (if not the details) are correct.

I understand that sexism is a problem but can't we just balance the scales by adding more sexy guys instead of having nobody be sexy, ever?

I don't think that's the argument.

I take it not knowing the difference between tone argument and having to draw a fucking red circle around what should be offending you so you don't miss it isn't considered stupid in newbie land then.

I initially thought the red circles were stupid, but on further reflection, well -- big green cleavage jumped right out and me and did not in fact need a circle to catch my attention, whereas Minotaur Woman's bare midriff is the same color as her armor and therefore I actually DID need a red circle to notice that it was a midriff, but now that I know it's a midriff I AM kinda like yeah, why does she need a bare midriff?  As for the one on the left, I'm not 100% sure what she's talking about but if she's pointing out that plate mail should not have giant boobs on it then I think she is correct, but I think in this case the red circle actually makes it HARDER to see what she's pointing out (whereas I saw "armor with boobs" pretty clearly in most of her other examples).

(Pics again so nobody has to go back a page to figure out what I'm talking about.)

...so yeah, I think the red circles are stupid in 2 out of the 3 cases, but not because it's hard to see what she's talking about -- actually, because it's not hard at all in one case, and because the circle actually makes it HARDER to see in the other case.

Along with learning that warrior women would in fact wear full plate, artists need to realize that male rogues would not.

Yeah, as somebody else pointed out, the practicality argument isn't the same thing as the sexism argument, but they're related.  Costumes need not have a real-world practicality (I'm a Jack Kirby fan, fer cryin' out loud), but there's a point where impracticality becomes distracting.

So... you can't see the difference between people commenting on how her examples are shit compared to just her attitude?

My argument isn't even necessarily that her examples are shit, just that they're not bad enough to justify the rancor she throws at them.  Which has a certain overlap with a tone argument, at least, though I would certainly agree that tone arguments are usually employed, well, the way Guild uses every form of argument.
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jsnlxndrlv

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2011, 11:15:28 AM »

Warning: this post is a response to Beat Bandit, not Thad.

Dude, I totally agree that she's getting upset at images that most people don't find objectionable in that post. I was right there with you for that part, and I felt particularly relieved that Friday and Mars didn't have a problem with those images, either. I even think there's an interesting discussion to be had on the slippery slope of male portrayals of female sexuality. The only thing that I am posting about is the idea that she should somehow modulate her tone with how far the particular opinion she's expressing falls outside the mainstream.

It's like me saying I hate God of War, even though I recognize it's not a bad game and that there are other games out there that are a lot worse, and then you saying that because those other games exist, I shouldn't hate it, I should only "dislike" it. Fuck that. I hate God of War, and I will rage disproportionately against it however much I damn well feel like.

ETA Thad: yeah, basically.
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Beat Bandit

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2011, 11:32:11 AM »

Yeah, as somebody else pointed out, the practicality argument isn't the same thing as the sexism argument, but they're related.
I think that's the only argument that makes sense. If a certain outfit meets all sensible requirements for the role, then beyond that determining if it's too sexy, not sexy enough or just stupid is a pretty fine line that can only really be answered by the character. Arguing if it's sexist for a cow with tits to show off her mid drift is just silly.

oh hey there's more to that quote now.

Costumes need not have a real-world practicality (I'm a Jack Kirby fan, fer cryin' out loud), but there's a point where impracticality becomes distracting.
I am not nearly well versed enough in costume design or even art at all to get into specifics here, but really still think this is less "is that outfit / artist sexist" and more "is that outfit / artist bad at this".

It's like me saying I hate God of War, even though I recognize it's not a bad game and that there are other games out there that are a lot worse, and then you saying that because those other games exist, I shouldn't hate it, I should only "dislike" it. Fuck that. I hate God of War, and I will rage disproportionately against it however much I damn well feel like.
I can't tell if in that example you think I have a good argument or not, but I think it's pretty horrible. I guess you're trying to say your response to my dispute is an example of tone argument? I'm not going to try and say people wont automatically get defensive if you come off as aggressive, I just don't think it's yet to come up in the thread.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Go Make Me a Sandwich
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2011, 11:45:42 AM »

ceci n'est pas une féministe
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...but is it art?
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