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Author Topic: Pointing and Laughing  (Read 2376 times)

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Ziiro

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 09:18:59 AM »

I played Metroid Prime on the gamecube and I found the controls so offensive that I stopped after a few minutes and refused to touch anything labeled "Metroid prime" ever again.
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Misha

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2011, 09:32:57 AM »

I've played all three primes via trilogy, so only with wii controls. I found the controls to be really awkard at first but the games are tuned to them. Enemies tend not to move fast and you can lock on the ones that do. Visor changing is a bit of a hassle at first but once you get used to it there's no big deal about it, and the same is true for changing weapons. The controls did not stand in the way of me enjoying a ton of metroid-style exploration etc.
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teg

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 10:30:36 AM »

Would you prefer "gives repeated single-sentence knee-jerk responses that are completely free of detail, comparative analysis, or any acknowledgement that a single shred of an opposing viewpoint -- as conveyed by someone who has more experience than he does with the topic at hand -- may have the least bit of merit?"

Me, I think it's a little wordy.
How about "reading way too much into a statement that despite your personal insistance on being to be too vague to be relevant to an issue that was never stated in the first place, you nonetheless treat as though it were intended as a serious argument, which was about as far from the intended function of the aforementioned statement as you can get without buying plane tickets;" or is that not wordy and in-depth enough? I promise next time I make a joking statement I'll preface with a four-page disclaimer and the post will be so long and complex it'll show up in Oprah's Book Club.


If you are looking for a serious, brief response to why I like the Wii version:
1) They're more intuitive for someone who is used to twin-stick FPS control and far more intuitive to someone who isn't (ie: me) and can be adjusted for increased or decreased pointer sensitivity or to swap the A button and B trigger (personally I prefer A to jump and B to shoot).
2) "Point at shit to point at shit" and more freedom of movement makes for less frustrating ordeals with certain encounters and their respective lock-on points (ie: If I recall correctly the default lock-on point for Meta Ridley is his head, even though his weak point is his chest).
2) While changing beams and visors has more downtime now (that can be downplayed a little by pointing at the appropriate part of the screen while pressing + or minus, rather than after), your four primary means of interacting with the world (jump, lock-on, shoot the thing and morph ball) are now a bit easier to access quickly, being mapped to buttons controlled by separate digits rather than three of them being controlled by on constantly-position-swapping thumb. You don't have to jump or shoot things much in Metroid Prime, do you Thad?
3) The morph ball has a dedicated jump action now, if you need to make a jump without waiting for a bomb to charge.
4) Not really a selling point, but it's since that there's no GBA link cable bullshit if you want to unlock the Fusion suit, and now there's some nice additional unlockable content.

If you want to list the most glaring inferiorities of the port besides control preference:
1) Major excavation of sequence-breaking techniques
2) Missing water and beam visual effects presumably due to technical compatibility issues.
3) The aforementioned Morph Ball jump command is finnicky enough to be considered unreliable.
4) Unless you are really accurate with increased sensitivity, quick-moving enemies like War Wasps are difficult to lock onto (not that you have to lock onto them anyway).
5) Availability. That amazon link is, as amazon links for old video games tend to be, incredibly misleading (at this exact moment there's a copy about to sell on eBay for $35 in "Very Good" condition, and even better-quality copies rarely go for more than $70 unless they're still in the shrink wrap), it's still not much of a contender compared to a fifteen dollar, easy to find used copy of Prime 1.

So yeah. If it seriously a thing that this has become your go-to reference for buying a ten-year-old game, this should suffice.
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patito

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2011, 10:42:47 AM »

2) While changing beams and visors has more downtime now (that can be downplayed a little by pointing at the appropriate part of the screen while pressing + or minus, rather than after), your four primary means of interacting with the world (jump, lock-on, shoot the thing and morph ball) are now a bit easier to access quickly, being mapped to buttons controlled by separate digits rather than three of them being controlled by on constantly-position-swapping thumb. You don't have to jump or shoot things much in Metroid Prime, do you Thad?

I'm just gonna be nitpicky, but controlling 4 buttons with a single thumb is generally preferable than 4 buttons with 4 fingers. But that's just me.

I think you're missing the bigger point though, that  MP1 was designed around the GC controller, the same way Mario 64 was to the N64 controller and why its DS port wasn't as good. MP3 should work wonders with the Wiimote though, because it was designed around it.
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Brentai

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2011, 10:53:30 AM »

Yes, thank you.  It's basically a choice between playing "Metroid Prime" or playing "Metroid Prime Wii".  The second is actually pretty great but it's still not the same as mother fucking Metroid Prime.

And my bigger beef is of course that there's no acceptable reason why that should be a choice you have to make.
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Thad

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2011, 11:11:01 AM »

How about "reading way too much into a statement that despite your personal insistance on being to be too vague to be relevant to an issue that was never stated in the first place, you nonetheless treat as though it were intended as a serious argument, which was about as far from the intended function of the aforementioned statement as you can get without buying plane tickets;" or is that not wordy and in-depth enough? I promise next time I make a joking statement I'll preface with a four-page disclaimer and the post will be so long and complex it'll show up in Oprah's Book Club.

Ah, the old "I wasn't TRYING to say anything useful or constructive, I was just being an ass for the sake of being an ass" defense.  Well, touche.

If you are looking for a serious, brief response to why I like the Wii version:

Well, yes.  And thank you for that; your post is informative!

1) They're more intuitive for someone who is used to twin-stick FPS control and far more intuitive to someone who isn't (ie: me) and can be adjusted for increased or decreased pointer sensitivity or to swap the A button and B trigger (personally I prefer A to jump and B to shoot).

Button remapping is a good thing.  More configurability is a good thing.

Which is why it's irritating that they don't let people play the first two games the way they were literally meant to be played.

2) "Point at shit to point at shit" and more freedom of movement makes for less frustrating ordeals with certain encounters and their respective lock-on points (ie: If I recall correctly the default lock-on point for Meta Ridley is his head, even though his weak point is his chest).

That's not really related to the control scheme, though; if the lock point is fucked up then the lock point is fucked up.

2) While changing beams and visors has more downtime now (that can be downplayed a little by pointing at the appropriate part of the screen while pressing + or minus, rather than after), your four primary means of interacting with the world (jump, lock-on, shoot the thing and morph ball) are now a bit easier to access quickly, being mapped to buttons controlled by separate digits rather than three of them being controlled by on constantly-position-swapping thumb. You don't have to jump or shoot things much in Metroid Prime, do you Thad?

This argument is frankly absurd.  It's hard to hit A and B at the same time?  Seriously?  That's what you're going to go with?

3) The morph ball has a dedicated jump action now, if you need to make a jump without waiting for a bomb to charge.

Again, this is an implementation issue which is completely independent of what controller you're using.

1) Major excavation of sequence-breaking techniques

Not sure what this actually means; could you please elaborate?

4) Unless you are really accurate with increased sensitivity, quick-moving enemies like War Wasps are difficult to lock onto (not that you have to lock onto them anyway).

This seems to be folks' major objection to using it in MP1&2: small, fast, and/or numerous enemies that are now harder to hit.

Again, this issue presumably does not exist in the game that was actually designed to use this interface.  I don't think anybody is complaining about the Metroid Prime 3 controls IN METROID PRIME 3.

So yeah. If it seriously a thing that this has become your go-to reference for buying a ten-year-old game, this should suffice.

Not really, but I was curious.  Still wouldn't mind playing the thing but don't expect to buy.
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teg

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2011, 11:53:19 AM »

This argument is frankly absurd.  It's hard to hit A and B at the same time?  Seriously?  That's what you're going to go with?
It is exactly as absurdly trivial as intended. It's a comparison to changing visors and weapons, where the argument seems to be that it's hard to press a button and point at something at the same time. It is not a time-consuming process, and while switching weapons and visors is a big thing in MP, it's not something that happens so constantly that the fastest and most unintrusive popup menu I've ever seen is really going to slow you down any more than using a normal controller would in the long run.

As for these:
Which is why it's irritating that they don't let people play the first two games the way they were literally meant to be played.
That's not really related to the control scheme, though; if the lock point is fucked up then the lock point is fucked up.
Again, this is an implementation issue which is completely independent of what controller you're using.
This seems to be folks' major objection to using it in MP1&2: small, fast, and/or numerous enemies that are now harder to hit.

Again, this issue presumably does not exist in the game that was actually designed to use this interface.  I don't think anybody is complaining about the Metroid Prime 3 controls IN METROID PRIME 3.
I never said anything about disagreeing with.

...Except possibly for the bit about small, fast enemies, which become trivial once you get out of the mindset that Metroid Prime is about locking on to things. War Wasps gave me nothing but grief when I started Prime 2 on the Wii, but when I learned to stop trying to fight them like pirate troopers and to start fighting them by standing back and manually aiming, they became exactly as easy as intended.
Not sure what this actually means; could you please elaborate?
They took out glitches that let people finish the game in an hour, which for some people is the fun of Metroid.


And this:
Ah, the old "I wasn't TRYING to say anything useful or constructive, I was just being an ass for the sake of being an ass" defense.  Well, touche.
...is a joke. The general tone of this entire place is nothing if not sardonic, and you yourself have a tendency to pick fights and say far more insensitive things over things a lot less trivial than this.

So cut it out.
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Joxam

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2011, 12:24:00 PM »

Do I have to make EVERYONE'S avatar a whiny baby?
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Brentai

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2011, 12:41:57 PM »

...Except possibly for the bit about small, fast enemies, which become trivial once you get out of the mindset that Metroid Prime is about locking on to things.

But... Metroid Prime IS about locking onto things.

That's kind of the crux of this issue here, which is that your entire schema for interacting with the world is different than the intended one.  In MP1 you spent something like 90% of your time locked on to things - that's how you accomplished turning and moving, basically.  That's why the maps in MP1 are so target rich.  Those exploding fruits hanging uselessly off the ceiling?  They're navigation aides, not target practice.

It works both ways, too.  Enemies that should be a major challenge suddenly become a minor irritation when you can just whip your gun around and blast them.

Quote
but when I learned to stop trying to fight them like pirate troopers and to start fighting them by standing back and manually aiming, they became exactly as easy as intended.

As mentioned before, the Phazon Mines become kind of trivial with the Wiimote because you can just sort of chill out in a safe place and blast away when the Elites pop up and start jumping around.  In the original, you had to kind of hunt them down and shoot them up close while they fucked you up.  That was intentional, because Elites are supposed to be the baddest things around, hanging out in the game's penultimate area.

So really, the thing to understand here is that, like so many good old games, Metroid Prime was a piece that was really defined by its technical limitations.  Removing those really only serves to bring the game's flaws into sharper focus, so yeah, the Wiimote is "inferior" I guess in this particular context.

This is all really missing the really important point, though, which is that Space Pirates still get horribly mangled trying to do the morph ball.
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Brentai

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2011, 12:47:37 PM »

:tl;dr: Playing Metroid Prime with a Wiimote is like playing Bionic Commando with a jump button.
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Thad

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2011, 01:28:48 PM »

It is exactly as absurdly trivial as intended. It's a comparison to changing visors and weapons, where the argument seems to be that it's hard to press a button and point at something at the same time.

That's not the argument at all.  My complaint is that the D-pad and A-button are placed awkwardly in relation to one another on the Wii remote, and if you start factoring in plus, minus, 1, and 2 then it gets far more inconvenient and awkward.  (If Plus, Minus, 1 and 2 aren't actually used, then I was misinformed, but I've still yet to see a game that uses both the D-pad and the A-button effectively.  ...maybe Mario Kart, though IIRC the D-pad was just used as one giant button in that one.)

And this:
Ah, the old "I wasn't TRYING to say anything useful or constructive, I was just being an ass for the sake of being an ass" defense.  Well, touche.
...is a joke. The general tone of this entire place is nothing if not sardonic, and you yourself have a tendency to pick fights and say far more insensitive things over things a lot less trivial than this.

So cut it out.

Already covered.

Far be it from me to criticize smug condescension, but dude, back that shit up with something.

You wanna produce some posts where I just spout an obnoxious one-liner and then don't bother establishing my position?  I'm sure there are some.  I'm just as sure they're outnumbered ten-to-one by the ones where I write an obnoxious one-liner and follow it with a massive, paragraphs-long analysis of precisely what my criticism is.

You sure you want to go down this road with me?
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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2011, 01:33:29 PM »

:popcorn:
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Brentai

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2011, 01:38:28 PM »























aintnogettingoffathistrainwereonDAMN
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Friday

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2011, 01:42:53 PM »

Suddenly, Thad realized that he was the king of the commies and whirled his minigun around to point at teg. "You'd better run, my son," he said, his hand on the trigger.
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Brentai

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2011, 07:36:24 AM »

Well hey if you don't want the Trilogy anymore Amazon will give you $15 for it today only!  :$_$:
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sei

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2011, 07:06:30 PM »

I thought the control scheme was the best thing about Metroid Prime 3, but that might not be the highest praise.

i thought the best thing was the fact that it had an implementation of achievements that actually worked as god intended.

not to say that it was a bad game, it was a solid game, but apparently the idea of in-game unlockable toys and features has just disappeared in the modern era, replaced by unlockable pop culture jokes that also gain you no benefit whatsoever.
why let them unlock it in game when we can charge them for it as DLC

norondor you are fired from the marketing department

forever
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Norondor

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2011, 07:14:47 PM »

FINE I'LL JUST GO MAKE GAMES ABOUT HOW ANXIOUS I AM ABOUT GETTING OLDER
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Brentai

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2011, 09:02:27 PM »

Just remember to take a break regularly or your psyche gauge will drop.
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Thad

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Re: Pointing and Laughing
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2011, 09:42:10 PM »

...you know, it occurs to me to wonder if Dolphin could map Wii Remote pointing to the right stick on a PC gamepad.

It also occurs to me to wonder how well my new GTX570 can run Dolphin at 1080p.
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