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[Brentai]

It appears that the box copy has Steamworks.  So, probably not getting that.

Er?  My understanding is that Steamworks is a relatively unobtrusive, one-time registration sort of thing.  It's not much worse than having to enter a CD-key unless you really never ever want anyone to know what games you've bought ever.

[Rico]

just search for Bal/Thad Steam arguments.

[Rico]

(/ intentional)

[patito]

Yeah, all PC versions of DX:HR use steamworks, so they require steam by default. So that's the conundrum probably.

[jsnlxndrlv]

So, which is more intolerable: playing on a console, or playing with DRM?

[Joxam]

Console, hands down, unless its a console game, of course.

[AČ]

Thad, a good rule of thumb is, if a game mentions anywhere - on the box, on another site - that it uses Steamworks in one format, Steamworks is used across the board for it. It's one of Steam's things.

EDIT: See p2 post

[Bongo Bill]

It appears that the box copy has Steamworks.  So, probably not getting that.

Er?  My understanding is that Steamworks is a relatively unobtrusive, one-time registration sort of thing.  It's not much worse than having to enter a CD-key unless you really never ever want anyone to know what games you've bought ever.

And even if you do, you just set yourself to invisible and never use the social functionality.

And it doesn't require you to be online... and I seem to recall reading that they have, in fact, tested the patch that would disable what little copy protection it has on the off-chance that they go out of business. Though I don't know where so it could be a fevered hallucination, and while that's no protection against a very radical change in management (highly unlikely due not only to culture but also to being non-corporate), it fits well with the general trend.

On a philosophical level, of course, it is still tied to the Steam platform, which, although featureful and light-handed, does in fact exist. While it doesn't have any third-party DRM the way some Steam games do, and a bit of preliminary research suggests that it has no requirements beyond Steam itself, that does mean it can't be resold, and furthermore that you must create a relationship between yourself and Valve. Which I seem to recall being the two big it's-a-matter-of-principle-dammit deal-breakers for Thad.

[Thad]

Er?  My understanding is that Steamworks is a relatively unobtrusive, one-time registration sort of thing.  It's not much worse than having to enter a CD-key unless you really never ever want anyone to know what games you've bought ever.

...aren't you the guy who wouldn't buy Arkham Asylum because of GFWL?

(/ intentional)

...is the "intentional" that you intentionally confused me with TA, or that you intentionally derailed a thread that begins with me explicitly stating it's not for arguing about the merits of DRM?

On a philosophical level, of course, it is still tied to the Steam platform, which, although featureful and light-handed, does in fact exist. While it doesn't have any third-party DRM the way some Steam games do, and a bit of preliminary research suggests that it has no requirements beyond Steam itself, that does mean it can't be resold, and furthermore that you must create a relationship between yourself and Valve. Which I seem to recall being the two big it's-a-matter-of-principle-dammit deal-breakers for Thad.

Well, in the case of buying a physical disc, yeah, kinda; what the hell's the point of buying a physical copy of something if it has all the same restrictions and requirements as the digital version?

But in general, no, you've gone and confused me with TA too.  I don't like having my right to resell infringed, but it's not a deal-breaker, and I HAVE bought a handful of games on Steam.  I just don't much see the point of making me use Steam for a single-player game I bought somewhere other than Steam.

While the pirates, as always, are exempt from the requirement.

[AČ]

Er?  My understanding is that Steamworks is a relatively unobtrusive, one-time registration sort of thing.  It's not much worse than having to enter a CD-key unless you really never ever want anyone to know what games you've bought ever.

...aren't you the guy who wouldn't buy Arkham Asylum because of GFWL?

But GfWL is a stinky pile of poo, that will randomly just flat out not work and I'm sure the more technological proficent people can dig up the arguments they've had in the past about GfWL's absolutely atrocious track record

On a philosophical level, of course, it is still tied to the Steam platform, which, although featureful and light-handed, does in fact exist. While it doesn't have any third-party DRM the way some Steam games do, and a bit of preliminary research suggests that it has no requirements beyond Steam itself, that does mean it can't be resold, and furthermore that you must create a relationship between yourself and Valve. Which I seem to recall being the two big it's-a-matter-of-principle-dammit deal-breakers for Thad.

I just don't much see the point of making me use Steam for a single-player game I bought somewhere other than Steam.

While the pirates, as always, are exempt from the requirement.

Cloud Saves.

And Steam Achievements! But no really, 99% of the Steamworks games, if not all of them, do the cloud saving thing, which is kind of handy.

[Thad]

It'd be a very handy feature if I intended to play the game on more than one computer.

I'm not opposed to the features Steam offers.  I oppose making them "mandatory".  (In quotes because, as always, they are not mandatory for pirates.)

The thing about Steamworks on a retail copy of a game is that it combines the restrictions of not owning a game with the inconvenience of going to the store and buying it.

[Bongo Bill]

Well, I got the first letter right, anyway.

One could make the argument that the main point of retail PC releases these days is to appease retailers and save bandwidth.

There's ups and downs. Software doesn't care about where it comes from so it's good that they're not trying to make it care, but there's no signs of establishing the norm of letting the consumer opt to do without the secondary features of digital versions. Doing it that way would significantly increase support costs, so there's less of an incentive to make things more open in that way, but there has been a distinct trend in the direction of consumer convenience. It remains to be seen whether things will keep moving or whether Steamworks is occupying some sort of equilibrium.

[Thad]

One could make the argument that the main point of retail PC releases these days is to appease retailers

And what a great job they did on that.

...Anyhow.  While I still think the "buy a box so you can use the Steam version" idea is asinine, I can see how it might not be so bad on an Amazon download copy -- if what I'm effectively doing is buying the Steam version of the game for $15 less than it costs to get through Steam.  Food for thought.

[Zaratustra]

I was against Steam when it started because it was such a clunky thing in 56 kbps, but right now it is the best DRM-like alternative for PC.

I will tell you this:
* the basic Steamworks framework gives developers pretty much no user information.
* It's up to the developers to test whether Steam is on and connected to the internet at launch or during play. Most games don't bother.
* About the only thing Steam disallows is resales, which are an American thing so I don't know how much that matters. That's mostly compensated by the occasional steam sale for massive discounts.

[AČ]

DRM is going to be on most big budget PC titles for as long as the big suits up top believe they work. That's the key part, as long as they think they work. A rather large shift in the money part of the equation will have to happen before those group of people do anything about it.

I'm thankful that those in the whole game-making chain who understand how DRM is wholly useless convince said suits to use Steamworks because, as mentioned before, it's the most unobtrusive and painless as far as DRM goes.

And yes, buying a Steamworks game at retail is buying a CD with a Steam Voucher on it. Granted, if you're in an area with download caps, said disc will spare you 10+GB of your download limit, something a friend of mine was ecstatic about with DNF.

[Ziiro]

I understand how you feel it should be an option - but when companies are abusing it to fuck over the developers I think it ties the hands of the publishers. I actually had the augmented edition of DXHR preordered, but then they offered hats on TF2 so that went out the window.
 

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

DRM is going to be on most big budget PC titles for as long as the big suits up top believe they work. That's the key part, as long as they think they work.

It does work for the bottom line. It's not going away.

[Thad]

I understand how you feel it should be an option - but when companies are abusing it to fuck over the developers I think it ties the hands of the publishers.

Bullshit.

I hate GameStop as much as the next guy, but first of all, assuming a used sale translates to a lost new sale is absurd.  People are more inclined to pay $50 for a new game if they know they can resell it later.

And even if that weren't true -- well, so fucking what?  The fact that a big box retailer is abusing a consumer right doesn't mean that consumer right should be withdrawn.

It does work for the bottom line.

I see multiple vague references to "internal data" and "studies" and zero citations.

I also see an argument that successful corporations don't waste money on stupid shit that doesn't work.  Do I even need to respond to that?

...oh right, I'm still waiting for your response to the last time I bothered trying to have this debate with you.

[Ziiro]

I'm bad at debate. Is that what you want to hear? I'm not going to bother. Keep doing what you're doing and not buying games that you don't support the methods of. Fight the power, Thad.

[Beat Bandit]

I refuse to believe Tommy and Bobby play on a fucking computer.

[Brentai]

Er?  My understanding is that Steamworks is a relatively unobtrusive, one-time registration sort of thing.  It's not much worse than having to enter a CD-key unless you really never ever want anyone to know what games you've bought ever.

...aren't you the guy who wouldn't buy Arkham Asylum because of GFWL?

Errrrr maybe, but then it turned out it actually uses SecuROM even for the Steam version, and then goes as far as to hide Steam's usual disclaimer about fact, so yeah fuck AA goddam sideways.  That's not really the point here though.

Even compared to GFWL, Steamworks is a pretty palatable choice.  GFWL likes to do a lot of cute shit like install things on your computer, interrupt your game, force you to log in to save, etcetera.  Steamworks asks you to authenticate exactly once and uses software you probably already have anyway, so it's functionally a non-issue.

I understand the right of first sale argument but I really don't feel it's too applicable to a PC game.  Honestly without some sort of DRM in place the chances that you're buying a copied game are about 100%.  If Steam were to open up Pandora's Box and allow license transfers, it would actually PROMOTE legal game resaling on a platform where it was once considered basically illegal by default.  That's not worth basing your purchase decision on right now but it's food for thought.