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Author Topic: Elitists vs. Posers  (Read 6477 times)

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Classic

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2012, 12:54:18 PM »

Is it worth letting the industry expand beyond your niche if it means that the concerns of your niche will become decreasingly important
Sometimes I get a little saddened that Dragon Age decided that it couldn't actually be Baldur's Gate.
Then I remember there's still Spiderweb software, even though they aren't quite doing BioWare's thing. So maybe there's a few bedroom programmers who are or will be filling that niche.

Also, as someone who can't fucking get over himself, I'm a major proponent in whiny self-important people getting over themselves.

I'll amend this post when I get home, I always love talking about this subject even when I'm fucked up on meds.
Instead of editing a post with new content, it's probably better to make a new post that continues the old one, so that, you know, people get a heads-up to check the thread again.
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Büge

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2012, 12:56:51 PM »

I'll amend this post when I get home, I always love talking about this subject even when I'm fucked up on meds.

What an amusing coincidence! I love to read about this stuff when I'm sober.
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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2012, 01:51:10 PM »

Western society has had a 500-year history (or arguably this goes beyond the west and is way older than a mere half a millenium) of things that are popular with kids but frowned on as "kids' stuff" retaining popularity and gaining acceptance an adult past-time when those kids grow up.

It doesn't really matter if it was the PSN or not. Video games were simply too malleable and widespread not to be adopted by society at large once the first generation raised on them reached adulthood. 
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Brentai

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2012, 03:01:29 PM »

Well yeah, but even when the NES was marketed as a toy it was only really popular with a particular subset of children.  Like Tycho said, the guys playing Call of Duty grew up with football and girls, not Mario.  Which still isn't as weird as when they were playing a JRPG, but still man.
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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2012, 03:52:24 PM »

Your actual value judgement about the phenomenon depends on where your priorities lie.  Is it worth letting the industry expand beyond your niche if it means that the concerns of your niche will become decreasingly important?  This is what the nerds keep complaining about: they mostly admit that it's a good thing that the pond is bigger now but they can't cope with the fact that they're still the same sized fish.

I believe, right now, Gaming is starting to find it's foothold. For the longest time, we - in this case, gamers and companies - wanted to think we were hip, unique. The mentality of nerf battles at the office daily, a whole "paradise" atmosphere. (This is of course counter to what really goes on, as Brentai will be MORE THAN HAPPY to detail to you)

But pretending such an environment exists allows for the horrific sides of it - crunch time, Bobby Kotick's infamous "I want to take the fun out of making it" all those things. The lack of focus and insistence on being "not like another business" means that you can be outlandlishly cruel to your employees, and there's 20 or so wide-eyed people behind you willing to jump in and take that ass pounding just to say "I work in video games!"

The Kotick line, ironically, is probably close to the best thing that COULD happen, and one of things that I DO hope happens now that gaming is out, mainstream, and beginning to grasp things. To clarify, I think gaming needs to realize that it's just another business. That the same(ish) rules and regulations and expectations need to be laid out and taped down. (One could argue this for right of first sale, as TA probably will at some point in this thread but that's another thing)

I don't agree with Kotick's idea of making it assembly line soul crushing. The industry's crushing enough as it is. But tighten it up and stop pretending you're some hip new club. You're big boys now, and you're part of everything else. It's not a bad thing.
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Thad

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2012, 05:05:35 PM »

Well yeah, but even when the NES was marketed as a toy it was only really popular with a particular subset of children.  Like Tycho said, the guys playing Call of Duty grew up with football and girls, not Mario.  Which still isn't as weird as when they were playing a JRPG, but still man.

See, everybody I knew had an NES, jock, nerd, or miscellaneous.  The thing was pretty huge.  SMB3 held the record for best-selling game for a long damn time.

Certainly games like Final Fantasy were niche, but I don't remember gaming itself being niche.
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Mongrel

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2012, 06:30:37 PM »

ANECDOTE again, but yeah, my experience lines up with Thad's on the NES. Except for the kids who had Sega. But most kids had SOMETHING.

In fact I was a WEIRD NERD for not having a game console (until I eventually got a SNES).

Unless you count my sweet Intellivision.  :whoops:
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Büge

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2012, 07:01:32 PM »

I didn't need a game console, because I had the power of imagination, apparently.
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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2012, 08:19:44 PM »

This is me resisting the urge to dekarma you with the explanation: "NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD!"
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Rico

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2012, 08:42:55 PM »

Having friended quite a few people at my 10 year reunion, I'm pretty sure just about every clique was into exactly the same things and just thought the others didn't or pretended they weren't.
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Ted Belmont

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2012, 06:21:01 AM »

That's just what they WANT you to think so you'll think they're cool nerds like us, Rico!
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Thad

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2012, 09:38:42 AM »

ANECDOTE again, but yeah, my experience lines up with Thad's on the NES. Except for the kids who had Sega. But most kids had SOMETHING.

Yeah, it's anecdotal and I'm curious how it stacks with actual statistics.

I'm also curious what percentage of PS1 sales dovetail with kids growing up and moving out of the house.  I move to college, I take my PS1, bam, my brother goes out and buys a PS1 since there isn't one in the house anymore.  (And that doesn't even get into people buying replacements because the fucking things keep breaking.  Not to say that the NES was a reliable machine or anything.)

PS2 was a bit of a sea change in that it would play your existing library of games AND was a DVD player, back when those were important value-adds.

Anyhow, all of this does bring us back to the question we started with, of "What is a gamer?"  Because there's certainly a distinction between the kids who had a Nintendo but only ever bought a couple Mario games and guys like us.  But I'm still reluctant to pooh-pooh them and say they're "not real gamers" just because they played a handful of games versus dozens.
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Syl

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2012, 01:03:03 PM »

I am a fan of interesting story and premises.  If these happen to occur over the course of a comic book/graphic novel I will gladly read and pay for them.

Which is why I own all 4 volumes of absolute sandman, am trying to collect all the trades of Transmetropolitan.  Yet the only "superhero" comics I have are an entirely unfinished set of trades of Runaways and X-Factor from a few years ago.  Roughly House of M through Secret Invasion era. 
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Thad

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2012, 01:56:55 PM »

Well, under those criteria I wouldn't say you're a comics fan per se, and it sounds like you wouldn't either.  But you could do a lot worse than Sandman and Transmet, and while I never got into Runaways I've quite enjoyed Vaughan's work elsewhere.

You just mention stories and premises, though -- comics is a visual medium and I feel that unfortunately lots of people only talk about the writing.
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Syl

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2012, 09:31:40 PM »

I love the visual medium on a few stories, on the completely "graphic novel" side of things I have quite a few short one-shots like Skydoll, Veils, a graphic novel adaptation of Bram Stoker's Dracula and I Am Legend.

I, for some reason, completely forgot that I own a vast majority of Hellboy/NPRD. I own all of Bone and I have the 1-50 walking dead compendium, I also have Absolute Watchmen.  I have read and would love to own Y the last man, Miracleman/Marvelman (Seriously, this shit is fucking fantastic),  I have also, over the course of the years and thanks to the internet, read many, many more.  I have met Mike Mignolia in person three times now.  The man is so incredibly interesting to talk too.  Thank you dragoncon

  On the manga side of things I'm a huge fan of Yoshitoshi Abe so I own almost all of his artbooks as well as the majority of Robot and Apple.  The only manga that I am currently following is 20th Century Boys.  I have bought volumes 1-19 and I am gladly, willingly, preordering every single volume that comes out because I feel that 20th century boys is an absolute masterpiece.
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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2012, 09:35:33 PM »

lots of people only talk about the writing.

For better or for worse, I'm not a comics fan. Also for better or for worse, I buy into auteur theory (which is more of a soaked-in de-facto way to discuss art than a considered choice for me). So if ever I have to talk about comics I use "writing" to refer both to the printed word on the page and to the work of the (hypothetical) auteur, because they're bound volumes.
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Thad

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2012, 10:16:16 AM »

I think "creator" is the more apt general term in those cases, though it carries its own set of baggage and ambiguity (if you refer to the current "creators" working on Superman, that's distinct from the actual creators OF Superman).

Generally speaking, the artist fills the role of the director far more than the writer does.  (There are exceptions -- Alan Moore writes famously dense scripts that may as well be storyboards -- but he's an extreme case and most writers put together far looser scripts and leave director-y things like "camera" angles to their artists.)

Of course, in the case of the Marvel Method, I do think the artist has a legitimate claim to being co-writer.

(The Marvel Method is, hypothetically, that the writer and artist hammer out a plot together, the artist draws it, and the writer fills in the script.  In practice, guys like Kirby and Ditko claimed that Stan Lee greatly exaggerated how actively he participated in the plotting stage, with Ditko saying Stan never knew what was going to happen in a given issue of Spider-Man until the art showed up on his desk, and Lee himself, in a rare moment of modesty, describing his surprise when the Silver Surfer first showed up, saying Kirby had created him out of whole cloth without any discussion.)

@Syl: That's rather a lot more books than you originally mentioned; you're fan enough for me even if you're a casual fan.  (And man, isn't Bone great?)
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Syl

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2012, 08:58:43 PM »

I buy what interests me.  I have quite a few random one-off things because Dragoncon has one particular booth that's always filled with some unbelievably cheap deals for graphic novels.  I'm talking about 50-75% off retail price everywhere.  I think I spent $60ish each on every absolute sandman.  On the actual comic comic side of things I know that I spent less than $50 on Complete Far Side and Complete Calvin and Hobbes.  Both are amazingly gorgeous examples of what a book can be. 
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Thad

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2012, 11:20:37 AM »

...so am I correct in understanding that the current #1 bestseller is an erotic Twilight fanfic where the author literally just did a find-replace and renamed all the characters?

Because I think that tends to encapsulate the very essence of the elitist-versus-populist dilemma.

On the one hand, I do believe we have knocked the bottom out of the lowest common denominator.  From the perspective of artistic integrity and simple good taste, this is possibly the worst thing ever.

On the other, it's a success story about a nobody on the Internet realizing that she could create a traditionally-published work for profit as her own original property instead of working for free on somebody else's characters, and actually making a bunch of money and potentially a career of it.

"Original property" is used in its very loosest sense here, but honestly I'm totally okay with that!

Bob Kane swiped from the Shadow panel-for-panel, and we got Batman.

And throughout the Before Watchmen debate, I've seen the argument that well the Watchmen characters aren't original in the first place they're just the Charlton characters with a fresh coat of paint.

Personally, I believe that argument to be bullshit.  Rorschach may have originally been based on the Question, but he is not the Question; not only is the legal argument for his originality indisputable (and moot, since DC owns the Question and, as we've seen, owns Watchmen for all intents and purposes), but I'm a firm believe in the MORAL argument that creating your own character based, recognizably, on somebody else's should be protected except in the most extreme of cases.

And you know, it's easy to pooh-pooh the lowest common denominator, and often justified, but that's always been used to keep "low art" down.  Dime novels and, later, comics were dismissed by elitists as being crap literature, and in many cases they were -- but they were entertainment for the masses, and indeed promoted literacy among poor people and immigrants.

When Biden made his comment a week or two back about Will and Grace making people more accepting of the idea of gay marriage, the Serious Media sneered at him for it.  Now, first of all, CNN has given up any right to look down its nose at sitcoms.  "The Vice President suggested that people are such a bunch of illiterate, ill-informed followers that they actually form political opinions based on mindless entertainment.  That's ridiculous.  Now stay with us, because Nancy Grace is up next!"

But I don't even think Biden is wrong.  I never watched Will and Grace; I am not what you would call the target audience.  But it seems to me that if you said the Cosby Show was an important moment in how mainstream America saw black people, CNN would not sneer at you for it.

Entertainment is important.  We are the stories we tell.  And something as simple as a popular work of entertainment that depicts the Other as being Not So Different After All can have a major impact on social norms.

I've gotten pretty far off my original subject, I suppose.  I guess my point is that freely-accessible casual entertainment is generally a good thing, even if not every example of it is good.
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Brentai

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Re: Elitists vs. Posers
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2012, 11:26:49 AM »

I guess the problem is that if we're the stories that we tell, then right now we're apparently a vampire with a rectum full of wolfman nards.
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