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Author Topic: The Environment  (Read 7188 times)

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Thad

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The Environment
« on: June 02, 2008, 07:26:40 PM »

NYT: Senate Opens Debate on Politically Risky Bill Addressing Global Warming

Highlight:

Quote
Opponents argue that the bill would direct the largest changes in the American economy since the 1930s and should not be rushed through without painstaking debate.

I wish they'd give names and quotes.  Because seriously.  "Oh no!  It'll be an economic change like the one we had in the 1930's!"  Really?  REALLY?  I know it's chic for modern Republicans to dismiss the New Deal, but I think they may be overplaying their hands.

Anyhow.  Obviously something has to be done about our energy situation, and at first blush this seems like a decent start.

Obviously any kind of environmental standards will have some impact on the economy, but letting the oil companies set the price to four dollars a gallon while their execs swim in their Scrooge McDuck money bins has a pretty fucking big impact on the economy too.  The suggestion of tariffs on goods from nations that don't meet our standards has the benefit of helping keep US jobs, and of giving companies like Mexico and China incentive to modernize.  I don't know any details on the bill beyond what I've read in that article, but as I say, it seems like a decent start.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2008, 07:43:35 PM »

Environmental legislation is all well and good, provided that it's intelligently conceived. A separation of the question of climate change and the hysteria thereupon is a solid foundation. I'm not sure I like the "We've got to do something" rhetoric, because that way lies overcompensation or ineffective techniques with harmful side effects. But if it's debate that's opening, and one that's getting some media attention, rather than forcing a bill through, I think there's an appreciable chance of this turning out a smart law after all.
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Royal☭

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2008, 07:50:04 PM »

Bongo, when people say "We have to do something" it is because what we are doing right now is ineffective at best, society ending at worst.  The 'do something beneficial' is implied.\

More to the point, debate may not actually be a good thing.  This isn't something that's really debatable.  We know there are environmental problems, and there is proof that we're the cause.  Decades of lackluster protection laws and unrestricted deforestation and drilling and polluting our fucking things up big time.  The only people who take an advantage from an ongoing dialog are the oil companies and the ones at the top, who can utilize any doubt as a reason to justify doing anything they want.  The time for debate on the subject was 20 years ago, now is the time for direct action.

Bongo Bill

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2008, 08:03:38 PM »

The debate, I am assuming, will be about how to do it. Hysteria won't help anything. If "we have to do something," then it's that much more likely that a hasty, hysterical, useless measure will be passed in lieu of a more reasoned and effective one.
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Brentai

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2008, 08:35:29 PM »

The time for debate on the subject was 20 years ago, now is the time for direct action.

CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!!
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Kazz

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2008, 08:36:25 PM »

Unfortunately, the decision is in the hands of politicians, rather than geniuses.
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Catloaf

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2008, 08:53:26 PM »

Unfortunately, the decision is in the hands of politicians, rather than geniuses.

Thanks for putting a awesome fictional political system in my mind.  Where the fourth branch of government is the council of nerdsSCIENCE!!!

These would be ultra nerds kept separate from common society to be completely politically impartial and would look at a situation as if it were from a struggling alien civilization of little amazingly cute puffball creatures. (I needed some reason in my analogy for them to want to help.)  They would also have a section of every university on earth double check all of their findings to avoid errors/corruption.  Then they would have a representative present their findings and suggested course of action.  Then it would take an agreement of 2/3rds of congress to modify said action beyond a a certain specified degree.
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Kazz

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2008, 08:55:46 PM »

Sounds good!
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Bongo Bill

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2008, 08:57:10 PM »

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Brentai

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2008, 09:18:17 PM »

I don't think Kazz was trying to argue that it's a bad idea because Hitler did it, though, I think he's trying to say Hitler did it, and it was a bad idea.
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jsnlxndrlv

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2008, 09:22:42 PM »

These would be ultra nerds kept separate from common society to be completely politically impartial and would look at a situation as if it were from a struggling alien civilization of little amazingly cute puffball creatures.

Isn't this basically the way the Universe is governed in the Hitchhiker's Guide series?
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Bongo Bill

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2008, 09:24:05 PM »

I don't think Kazz was trying to argue that it's a bad idea because Hitler did it, though, I think he's trying to say Hitler did it, and it was a bad idea.

Be that as it may, I still love the title of that article.
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sei

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2008, 04:47:00 AM »

Ditto.  Also this: "The ad Nazium variant may be further derived, humorously, from argumentum ad nauseam."
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Sharkey

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2008, 08:41:37 AM »

Wasn't that called The Republic?
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Classic

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2008, 11:50:01 AM »

These nerds have loads of sex and groom their superior offspring for the role they're destined to take.
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Brentai

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2008, 12:11:59 PM »

Look, I know the sheer hatred radiating from Hitler is as toxic as any pollutant!, but he really doesn't have that much to do with our current global situation.  Let's get back on the topic of evil oil barons by Lee Raymond could double as a Scrooge McDuck Money Bin.
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Catloaf

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2008, 12:24:07 PM »

I don't think Kazz was trying to argue that it's a bad idea because Hitler did it, though, I think he's trying to say Hitler did it, and it was a bad idea.

Honestly, I didn't know that it had ever been done.  I've never had any good history teachers.  Nor have I shown any strong interest.

These would be ultra nerds kept separate from common society to be completely politically impartial and would look at a situation as if it were from a struggling alien civilization of little amazingly cute puffball creatures.

Isn't this basically the way the Universe is governed in the Hitchhiker's Guide series?

Goddamn, I really need to read more.
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Norondor

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2008, 01:26:06 PM »

These would be ultra nerds kept separate from common society to be completely politically impartial and would look at a situation as if it were from a struggling alien civilization of little amazingly cute puffball creatures.

Isn't this basically the way the Universe is governed in the Hitchhiker's Guide series?

Goddamn, I really need to read more.

True. See also:

Honestly, I didn't know that it had ever been done.  I've never had any good history teachers.  Nor have I shown any strong interest.
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Thad

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2008, 09:34:29 AM »

Hrm, well that didn't last long.

As election-year wedge issues go, it's nice seeing the Dems use this one; it rather tends to defy the conventional wisdom that the environment's not important to most people (which is the kind of attitude that gave us the neutered version of Al Gore 8 years ago).  Obviously most people don't see it as important as the economy or the war, but it's certainly gained traction.
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James Edward Smith

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Re: The Environment
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2008, 09:52:41 AM »

Wasn't that called The Republic?

Do you mean, Plato's idea of the ideal government and society? Yeah.

Also, yeah, I only made this post to take an other jab at Catloaf for presenting an old idea as new.

That's right Catloaf, PLATO OLD.

bwahahaha
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