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Author Topic: Social Issues in Games  (Read 13916 times)

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R^2

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2013, 04:20:31 PM »

I thought about whether Tropes vs. Women might address that most of the cited games are Japanese but her target audience is English-speaking.

But as I understand it, Japanese media is generally targeted towards men, with women-targeted media being mostly about romance -- and outside media, the country's overall culture is generally patriarchal, with conservative good ol' boys running government interests and big business.

So it may be a moot point. 
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Kayma

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2013, 10:09:53 PM »

That was a pretty good analysis. I'm still sort of broken in my head about how they didn't use the Mario Bros.2 cast full on for New Super Mario Bros.
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A

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2013, 11:05:09 PM »

There's a distressing reason "women-only" trains are a real thing that exist in Japan, and if you lack a dong, you should ride them whenever possible.
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A

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2013, 11:14:09 PM »

This is not the video series I expected for $150,000, and honestly I'd feel kind of cheated if she only barely met her original goal. You mention there's Mario spinoffs and how it's a shame Peach is never playable in the main series, and you don't even pay lip service to the Paper Mario games, where Peach is pretty damn strong?

I do not see useful things that come from this woman trying to talk about and discuss a subject I care about.
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R^2

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2013, 04:24:16 AM »

I don't, but noted.
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Bge

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2013, 07:08:13 AM »

She's talking about two of the most recognizable Damsels in Distress in the context of that role in their games. Peach never had a very active role in the series proper. She may mention Peach's role in the Paper Mario series in a subsequent episode. You also should remember that this is the first video and she has to talk about the subject in broad enough terms for non-gamers and non-academics to appreciate.

What were you expecting, exactly?
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A

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2013, 12:25:44 PM »

Something worthwhile of all the publicity surrounding this series, and not the same shit I've seen before?
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Bge

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2013, 01:08:46 PM »

You have to consider, Lyrai, that this may be old hat for you, but may be news to someone who isn't steeped in the culture of gaming. Not everyone has a Kayin in their lives, or has Kotaku on their RSS, or even thinks about the semiotics of the media they consume. This brings some of the more pervasive tropes under scrutiny, and although it might not be the first of its kind, it will probably be the most widely received.

Honestly, I don't see the issue. Anita wasn't promising us the moon. A large part of the publicity came about because people were trying to shout her down and she got a huge outpouring of support and attention from word-of-mouth.
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A

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2013, 01:45:39 PM »

I do consider that, and I am considering that viewpoint here, that this is supposed to be showing it to people who've never thought about it before. The problem is that it's a terrible video to show to those people, and will do more harm than good, both in the sense of being so hostile to the point of trying to make you feel like a shit for enjoying any game mentioned, and a complete lack of "Let's discuss this."

You want to be fucking useful to the trope and discussion? Don't treat your audience like they're irredeemably awful for inadvertently supporting it when they didn't know, treat them like you realized a problem and you'd like some help getting rid of it.

Hell, go big. Mention culture between east and west, how Japan itself is so hideously male-centric that it bleeds into all forms of their media, including their video games. These aren't just magical discs and cartridges that suddenly appear in front of you. People write them and create them, and if you want to attack the problem properly, you need to examine these people, and what could possibly lead them to crafting something like this.

Quote from: List of videos
1. Damsel in Distress
2. The Fighting F#@k Toy
3. The Sexy Sidekick
4. The Sexy Villainess
5. Background Decoration
6. Voodoo Priestess/Tribal Sorceress
7. Women as Reward
8. Mrs. Male Character
9. Unattractive Equals Evil
10. Man with Boobs
11. Positive Female Characters!
12. Top 10 Most Common Defenses of Sexism in Games

Oh, no, we don't get any discussion of culture, and we have to wait until episode 11 before we get 30 minutes of "Samus and Terra, except when this this and this happened"

I also would fucking love to see a discussion on God of War, if only because the most recent game has you shit-stomp the hell out of a woman in one of GoW's now trademark extreme gore porn QTEs, and then in the aftermath, you get an achievement, "Bros before Hos"

You want to talk about actually helping women in regards to video games, start by finding out who thought it'd be a good idea to do that.
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Beat Bandit

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2013, 01:59:36 PM »

It is disappointing that months and thousands of dollars have no notable impact on actual quality of production outside of some extra time talking.

Other than that though no one, regardless of their feelings on her videos, should have expected these to not have misrepresentations, contradictions, and information from her examples that does not expressly back her point left out.

warning blah blah blah

"Let's discuss this."
teeheehee
You want to be fucking useful to the trope and discussion?
hahaha
You want to talk about actually helping women in reguards to video games
BWAHAHAHA

Come on Lyrai, none of those things promote attention and view-grabbing sensationalism. Let's get real here.
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Classic

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2013, 02:33:06 PM »

The problem is that it's a terrible video to show to those people, and will do more harm than good, both in the sense of being so hostile to the point of trying to make you feel like a shit for enjoying any game mentioned, and a complete lack of "Let's discuss this."

Doesn't she make her, "you can enjoy this stuff even if you're critical of them" disclaimer in the first minute? Yeah. There it is.
I don't care enough to re-watch the whole video carefully examining the tone to decide whether or not it's hostile to people who enjoy games but from memory, the most hostile thing she's got going on in the video is that flannel shirt.

But I mean, I've long been annoyed at SMBWii's decision not to take the 4 player dynamic straight from Doki Doki Mario Brothers, and had the "whenever these princesses are shown as feminine they get damsel-ized hella fast" thing driven home when I got angry as fuck over Other M. So maybe I'm too in the choir to see the flaws you're describing?

Mention culture between east and west, how Japan itself is so hideously male-centric that it bleeds into all forms of their media, including their video games.
Hey, I'd watch it. But if you do it, you're probably going to have a bunch of Movie Bobs calling you a racist (to say nothing of the Japanese).
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A

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2013, 03:58:24 PM »

http://www.siliconera.com/2013/03/08/talking-about-time-and-eternity-blue-dragons-and-marriage/

Quote
Siliconera: Was Time and Eternity developed for guys Is this a game for girls? Parts of it feel like its a guys game, but in other parts there is a girl talk like when Towa talks about planning her wedding.

Kei Hirono, Producer of Time and Eternity: Actually its made for guys. When we created this game and when you look at the art, its the kind of female design that is pleasing to men, especially in Japan. This anime style is kind of geared toward guys in Japan. Within the game itself there is a healthy amount of "eros", you know, things that arent exactly for girls. We have never intended it to be for girls from the beginning.

This is just a kind of coincidence, but currently in Japan, its a lot more difficult for men than women to get married, so we thought it would be kind of an interesting theme to deal with. Also, I just got married recently too so this came together along with this plot.


SE: Is that why Towa/Toki has Drake accompany her and sometimes Drake would peep on her when shes taking shower?

KH: Yup. That kind of thing.

SE: Why did you make Princess Towa/Toki the main character in Time and Eternity instead of the Prince?

KH: We wanted to break the mold and step away from the current trend of male hero. We thought that it would be very interesting to have a heroine instead of a typical male hero, to have a female hero playable character who is strong. Its a different take on a stale genre, the Japanese RPG genre.
 
SE: And how does Drake fit in?

KH: Generally speaking, dont women drag men along anyway? Well, especially in Japan.

In this instance, the heroine is a heroine soley as a marketing move
The producer admits this with no qualifications or anything even resembling the kind of fire he'd get for saying that over here.
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R^2

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2013, 06:50:12 PM »

11. Positive Female Characters!

Oh, no, we don't get any discussion of culture, and we have to wait until episode 11 before we get 30 minutes of "Samus and Terra, except when this this and this happened"

I'm hesitant to call Samus a positive female character after Other M, honestly. The producers and writers wanted to "treat Samus as a woman", so... they made her simper and cry and be in an abusive relationship with her CO.
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A

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2013, 08:29:18 PM »

I imagine that, and the bit with the orphanage (for Terra) are going to be the deluge of qualifiers in the "Except when this and this happened"
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DestyNova

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2013, 09:47:27 PM »

Attempted Tropes. Vs. Men Kickstarter ended up with the men running away with the cash.
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Bge

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2013, 09:51:46 PM »

Oh man, really? What happened?
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Classic

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2013, 10:56:48 PM »

Someone is continuing to claim that they haven't run off with the money.
But everything on their steamcommunity page looks seedy and stupid.
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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2013, 11:07:45 PM »

Did I just not remember that orphanage thing properly?

After basically being the driving force for the plot in the first half of the game, she gets rescued by Celes after a battle with a beast that she's been holding at bay goes south and loses confidence in her ability to fight and says she wants to take care of the kids.

Later, when the party returns, the situation is reversed and she swoops in and turns the tide against the monster which had been harassing her wards, and seeing that the kids have someone to look after them without her decides to go and make the world a better place?

...
Am I happily ignoring some problematic content here?
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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2013, 03:34:43 AM »

Terra and Celes are two magnificent female archetypes, but neither are far from perfect, and I suspect if they're remembered at all, the woman will harp on the downsides of them far more than "The other 90% of the game where they are absolutely astounding)

Terra spends the intro to the game straight up mind-slaved before having it blown off by Tritoch. We're treated to a damn good story, up until the Esper-side of her goes berserk and she just wants to be a good yamato nadeshiko, and direct threat of the kids is required to shake her out of it.

Celes has that incredibly uncomfortable torture scene as well.

Beyond those two (three...ish) scenes, FF6 is very, very good in terms of gender equality, especially moreso for a Japanese game...

I could go on about how a number of the other FFs do pretty well in the gender department, going all the way up to Linear Corridor Simulator 2013, but that's diverting from the point: I'm saying the video series is of such hostility and nitpicking that it's going to focus on one or two small things to invalidate the character or game entirely, rather than accept that nothing is a perfect ideal, especially in something such as this.

EDIT: 4:30am is not the best time to be remembering bideo james. When my FF6-crazy friend wakes up tommorow I'll run that by her to see if I'm remembering it all correctly, but the point stands: Terra & Celes had one or two minor issues that will be blown out of proportion.
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R^2

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Re: Re: Videodrome
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2013, 03:42:17 AM »

I think qualifiers like "especially for a Japanese game" and "in spite of BEEP BEEP FAR MORE INTERESTING PROTAGONIST COMING THROUGH" and "you do originally find them mindslaved/tortured" are exactly what the video is supposed to be talking about.
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