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Author Topic: Social Issues in Games  (Read 12519 times)

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Zaratustra

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2013, 04:46:02 PM »

My position has always been that nobody -should- care about my position on feminism, but I'll point out that yep, the majority of non-indie game developers (and a few of the indies) i've met is rampantly sexist. The programmers are jilted nerds who all end up dating beautifully vapid girls, the artists have portfolios with a breast per page ratio of over 300%, the game designers are completely clueless and just want to make exactly the same thing they played when they were 12 with no dirty girls spoiling the mood, and the producers are a good old boys network that sees most women as a machine that coughs up money if you give it games about clothes and partying.

Friday

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2013, 06:58:49 PM »

I've seen plenty on both sides as far as the "opposite gender as pets" bullshit goes. Girls tend to talk about "Boys" in exactly the same bullshit, gender-objectifying way when nobody is around to make them remember that doing that is exactly what they hate so fucking much when done by the other side.

Of course, men are predominantly the policy and media makers, so -- you know the fuck what, it occurs to me that you people are smart enough that I don't have to write the rest of this fucking bullshit because you know what I'm going to say anyway.
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Ocksi

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2013, 07:11:08 PM »

Right, and the issue with dehumanizing women isn't that women don't ever objectify men. It's that men have always had the social power that their objectification becomes systemic. The Feminist Frequency videos have always just been a way of pointing these things out to idiots. There's nothing particularly groundbreaking. It's like when you're reading "Yo, is this Racist?" and you already know the answer to every question.
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Ted Belmont

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2013, 09:57:23 PM »

NOTE: The answer is 'yes'.
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Bal

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2013, 01:13:03 AM »

My only eyebrow raising thing about Sarkeesian that occurs to me, because her message is obvious to the point of being inconsequential, is where that 160k is going. I've seen her videos before and after the Kickstarter, and I really can't see a big difference. The research is sub-par, and the production values have gone nowhere.
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Royal☭

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2013, 03:04:40 PM »

Starting to feel like some of the people on her think "I know about feminism, she's just stating the obvious" but then want to actually get mad at her for stating it anyway. Honestly it sounds like you guys are looking for ways to be hostile towards her. The thing about the "Obvious as to be inconsequential" argument is that the Kickstarter only got to $160k because of a barrage of sexist threats and abuse hurled her way. So yeah, it kind of seems like it needs to be said?

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2013, 03:37:03 PM »

This is a heated topic that needs intelligent people dissecting it and working towards a good resolution. If the research is flawed, reflected in your presentation of the facts, you damage the whole topic and become more fodder and reason for people to ignore it.

Anita Sarkeesian has produced a shitty video, with bullshit logic, and many glaring research errors that many people have picked apart without resorting to sexism against her. So I am quite mad at her for gathering a whole bunch of publicity and then producing a stinky fart in response, when she could have been using those Ted talks and interviews about the harassment that all but eclipsed the actual video series topic to try and further the cause and idea that she believed in enough to have a whole webisode series about it and run the kickstarter in the first goddamn place.

The trope also needs less men who feel women need to sit back and let men talk about feminism, dear, we'll handle it, you just run along now, but that's another conversation entirely.

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Royal☭

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2013, 04:42:59 PM »

Again, you sound really angry about something but I'm not sure what. In one of your earlier posts, you claim she is attacking the audience, treating them like "like they're irredeemably awful for inadvertently supporting" gaming. Which, did you watch the video?

Quote
She continues to speak of games and those who play them as if they suddenly pop into existence hating women. When she mentions Double Dragon, she says the name with the same amount of bile and venom you'd say the name of an STD, and then devotes a bit to how horrible it is that retro games with HD makeovers are coming back, treating the world to "this regressive crap all over again" , as if seeing Double Dragon Neon is going to make a 32 year old man suddenly walk up to a woman and punch her in the stomach, going "BIDEO JAMES SAID I COULD"

In regards to the hostility. There's also zero attempt to show how to attempt to fight it or do better, beyond "Make female heroes more!" which as the above post for a Japanese game illustrated, uh, isn't a magic salve.

And again, you make it sound like she's attacking the audience when she really isn't. When watching the segment, she specifically calls out the Double Dragon scene being remade over and over as an example of the dehumanizing effect of the trope. She also makes no such claim that people will see it and imitate it. Her video isn't about people imitating video games, it's about how the trope reduces women to little more than property that is fought over.

You seem to be taking the video as a personal attack on yourself or people you know, rather than as a feminist critique of pop culture. Never once does she seem to attack the audience or fanbase of games. Hell, she even outright says that she grew up playing the same games and they have a "special place in her heart", but still thinks that's no reason not to discuss when women are sidelined and derived of character.

As for Zelda, she specifically has praise for when Zelda is allowed to help out and be an active player in the game. What she hates, though, is that once she falls into her traditional role, she gets immediately sidelined and robbed of agency. Keen viewers will also note that she specifically praises Wind Waker for the boss battle. But I guess that's not as fun as trying to play "Gotcha."

But really, it seems like people are going out of their way to nitpick the video. Anita is not hostile, her focus is on a singular topic (that's why she doesn't discuss Samus or the Peach's other appearances), and she has a ton of more videos to produce before she's done discussing a lot women's portrayal in games. Hell, she specifically states that the next video will pick up the same subject but for more contemporary games.

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2013, 05:05:35 PM »

I have watched the video once, and I have no desire to watch it again.

In reguards to Double Dragon, specifically, scroll down a few posts after I said that and Beat Bandit gives a nice dissection of how she fucked up the Double Dragon mention (It involves her probably only reading the wikipedia page for Neon)

And are we supposed to just accept a shitty video that does nothing to help a rather volatile subject? You sound like you're angry that people are analyzing and taking apart a video...who's purpose is to analyze and take apart something else.

It's a shitty contribution to a serious cause, so yes I'm angry.
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Brentai

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2013, 05:10:57 PM »

Haven't watched the video yet, but if she rags on Neon having the classic Marion kidnapping scene in it then it's a horrible, horrible sign of things to come.  Neon is pretty clearly making fun of how utterly ridiculous Marion's portrayal in the series is.  They are on her side.  Practically doing what she's doing, even.  This sort of thing is a bullet train to being written off by people on both sides of the aisle.

Again, haven't had time to watch it, fingers crossed that it's not as bad as it sounds.
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Royal☭

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2013, 05:12:54 PM »

See, the thing is, while it points to the Neon remake, it then goes on to show about 15 or so videos from other versions of Double Dragon all depicting the same gut-punch to panty-shot opener.

And are we supposed to just accept a shitty video that does nothing to help a rather volatile subject? You sound like you're angry that people are analyzing and taking apart a video...who's purpose is to analyze and take apart something else.

It's a shitty contribution to a serious cause, so yes I'm angry.

How does it not help? She points out the issues and discusses their meanings. Again, she never condemns gaming or fandom as a whole. The people who seem to be getting all bent out of shape seem to be the ones who object to her talking about this subject at all.

I mean, the way you've been acting sounds mostly like incoherent rage backed up by nitpicking of tiny details while ignoring the larger message. Anita, or really anyone discussing feminism in games, owes know respect or formalities to gamers who are simply going to bitch about the video in the first place, then try and pick apart minutia to prove her overall point wrong.

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2013, 05:16:14 PM »

Because she is a terrible person to be talking about it due to a stunning lack of research, bad presentation, and quite a few things that have nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her professional qualifications

Would you want Bush Jr to come talk to your company about Leadership Qualities?
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Brentai

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2013, 05:16:25 PM »

See, the thing is, while it points to the Neon remake, it then goes on to show about 15 or so videos from other versions of Double Dragon all depicting the same gut-punch to panty-shot opener.

That could be better or worse, depending on how it goes.  The very last thing you want to do is lump people together like that.

Again, withholding final judgement until I actually have time to see it.  I don't really need a synopsis until then.
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Mongrel

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2013, 05:19:15 PM »

The trope also needs less men who feel women need to sit back and let men talk about feminism, dear, we'll handle it, you just run along now, but that's another conversation entirely

I gotta say that that watching an entire forum of men discuss feminism on the internet one of the more aggravating things you can do on the internet. It drives me nuts when this subject comes up for INTENSE DISCUSSION but zero women are actually present or saying anything.
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Royal☭

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2013, 05:22:04 PM »

Isn't Lyrai a woman? But really, I'm trying to avoid feminism as a whole and talk about the actual merits of the video. If Lyrai wants to actually tell me what the stunning lack of research is, I'd like to hear it. If it's a reiteration along the lines of "Samus isn't in it" or "Minor quibble about Double Dragon", though, I'm not much interested.

Most of what I don't get is that Lyrai has claimed quite a few times that the video attacks gamers for liking the games, which simply is not in the video. I mean, this is a heated topic that needs intelligent people dissecting it and   working towards a good resolution. If the argument is flawed and reflected in your posts, you damage the whole topic and become   more fodder and reason for people to ignore it.

Mongrel

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2013, 06:42:57 PM »

Isn't Lyrai a woman?

Yes? Why would that have changed? Not sure what your point is?

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but I was agreeing with her. It's fucking silly to have a discussion about women's rights with no women involved.
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Joxam

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2013, 06:48:22 PM »

It's fucking silly to have a discussion about women's rights with no women involved.

I hate to say that this is the stupidest thing I've heard all week, but it is. That's like saying that because I don't drive a motorcycle I can't advocate for riders to have equal road rights and laws to projected them (I picked this topic out because you do ride).
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Joxam

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2013, 06:52:08 PM »

Seriously, to me this harkens back to who needs to know about feminism. A bunch of men talking about feminism, in my mind, is actually kind of the whole fucking point. Pretend I ended this with a pithy quote about teaching a man not to rape, not teaching women not to get raped.
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Mongrel

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #78 on: March 11, 2013, 07:52:51 PM »

It's fucking silly to have a discussion about women's rights with no women involved.

I hate to say that this is the stupidest thing I've heard all week, but it is. That's like saying that because I don't drive a motorcycle I can't advocate for riders to have equal road rights and laws to projected them (I picked this topic out because you do ride).

Not really? Thanks for calling me stupid?

Nobody's saying men can't advocate for women. But firsthand information is useful to the conversation. I mean, yes, it's bloody important for men to be talking about women's rights, but should they not be informing themselves by actually talking to women at some point? Maybe even including women on a regular basis?

I mean, this seems absurd to me. I was agreeing with a woman who was saying it was important that women be a part of the conversation about sexism. Isn't telling me I'm stupid for agreeing with that practically sexism in itself? What the fuck, man.
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Mongrel

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Re: Social Issues in Games
« Reply #79 on: March 11, 2013, 07:56:55 PM »

To add to the previous:

I am not talking about exclusion here, Joxam. I am talking about INclusion. The point is that women have a right to be part of the conversation. That they should be taking part. I am glad that there are women on this forum who felt like taking part in the discussion, when I have been to many places where women's voices are absent.

I am not suggesting that non motorcycle-riders women can't advocate for motorcycle-riders women, I am saying that it can get pretty fucking silly if you have a whole group of people advocating for motorcycle-riders women with no motorcycle-riders women among them at all.

Especially when the historical problem has been other people making decisions for motorcycle-riders women without their input.
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