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[Bal]

Still not sure where the 160k went. If she's not qualified to use it (ie lacks the technical skill to improve production quality significantly), hire someone who can with some of that money. I don't really feel like getting in to the rest of the discussion, because it's honestly poison at this point.

[Joxam]

Mongrel, we should include all the women we can, but our community isn't exactly brimming with them, my issue with what you said is just because that's the case doesn't mean we shouldn't try and have meaningful discussion about this, nor does it mean we can't.

[Mongrel]

No, it doesn't mean we can't discuss it, or that it's not useful for use to raise awareness among our fellow MANFOLKS, but nor can you stay in the bubble forever. Without input from the people who are directly affected, it's too easy to build a skewed world entirely out of assumptions.

It's similar to sound science: It's good and necessary to explore theories, but sooner or later you do have to make actual empirical experiments, or the whole process is a farce. 

I mean, you're happy that men are talking, because it's men who are at fault. That's a relevant point, but in the end that just reinforces the two solitudes; the idea that the genders are separate animals. We all need to talk together if we're going to really learn anything. Certainly not all the time, but at least some of the time.

[Brentai]

Too Silly - Monty Python

[Mongrel]

Joxam,

Honest question, I am not trolling or trying to be an ass. I am just trying to maybe get across where I'm coming from:

How would it make you feel if you saw a group of entirely of white non-native guys sitting around talking about what they can do for native peoples?

Would you want to be a part of that discussion or offer your own input?

Is there a possibility that maybe some natives might see the fact that those random white guys are having the discussion as positive but that others might see it as paternalistic? I mean, I am not claiming any group is a monolith here, so I can see where there are different views.

Certainly, even if the random white guys had women, or natives, or blacks or whoever is the subject of the day among them, they can still be making foolish, paternal assumptions. But I'd like to think that if they're actively soliciting the opinions of people outside their echo chamber, that there's a better chance that a meaningful discussion is taking place.

[François]

Mongrel, I understand where you're coming from, but I think your concern would mainly apply if we were excluding women from the discussion. Women's voices are welcome in this community, and historically always have been as far as I know. Besides, the problem of sexist tropes in video games is not just a problem that regards women, it's a problem that regards the human race, and it is sensible that any sort of human creature would be interested in examining it. If a guy is grossed out by a woman's demeaning portrayal in media, shouldn't he be allowed to discuss it with his peers even if no or few women are present at the time, especially if, to his mind, the issue is seen as "a human being's demeaning portrayal in media"? To me, "no discussion at all" is much worse than "some discussion regarding an underrepresented party", even though the latter is still far from ideal.

[Mongrel]

Well the dialogue could be summarized as:

<Lyrai> It's good for women to participate in these discussions
<Lyrai> Men-only discussions have been part of the problem
<Mongrel> I agree
<Mongrel> I feel like it's silly to talk about this and not have any input from women
<Joxam> Are men's voices not valid?
<Joxam> It's a good sign that men are responding to this and having discussions
<Francois> Yeah, we're not excluding women from the discussion. Why can't we discuss this?

Maybe I just came off really badly, but I feel like a lot of you think I'm accusing you all of something I did not.

I did not say we exclude women here. Nor did I say men could never talk about this ever. Nor did I say we should stop talking about it. I did not say any of these things. I did not mean to imply any of these things. Please stop accusing me of saying such things. I was trying to be positive about our community. I feel like got fucking jumped here for pretty much saying "Hooray for the brontoforums".

I'm am saying I am happy when I see women are included and not happy in situations where - for whatever reason - they are completely absent. A group of only men is by definition a skewed sample of humanity. While there is some positive utility in a group of men discussing women's issues, such groups are limited in ways that mixed-gender groups are not.

[François]

Oooooh, I see what's going on here. I saw this:

I gotta say that that watching an entire forum of men discuss feminism on the internet one of the more aggravating things you can do on the internet. It drives me nuts when this subject comes up for INTENSE DISCUSSION but zero women are actually present or saying anything.

...and somehow figured you were talking about us. Herp de derp nothing to see here move along citizens. 

[Joxam]

I guess if he wasn't talking about us fine, but then my question is why the fuck say that in the first place?

[Classic]

I'd assume because watching any kind of forum with only men discussing the problems with gender equality is necessarily cringe-worthy and the conversation reminded him of this fact?
Also because maybe I_M is the kind of dude who can put his foot so far in his mouth you'd think he'd placed it in his own ass? Obviously, I'm in no position to criticize the dude for making comically bad word choices.

[Mongrel]

Assumptions, they make... well we all know how the line goes.

I've just never thought of this place as a forum entirely of men or as being "male-dominated". At least compared to a lot of other places I've been to.

I guess if he wasn't talking about us fine, but then my question is why the fuck say that in the first place?

"Hey Lyrai, that's a good point and I agree with you." And then I provided my personal experience in that regard.

EDIT: Edited to try and sound less like a dick.

[Smiler]

It's hard to determine if I need to split this or not because this is very very stupid but at the same time I just woke up.

[Thad]

I guess if he wasn't talking about us fine, but then my question is why the fuck say that in the first place?

It's germane to the discussion because it's precisely the thing Sarkeesian's been facing since she first announced the series.  And because it's a Youtube video, so obviously there is at least one comments thread full of mouth-breathers out there.

Haven't seen the video myself yet either, so not going to weigh in on its contents yet.

It's hard to determine if I need to split this or not because this is very very stupid but at the same time I just woke up.

Let's see if we can get it back on track.  Guys, are we back on the same page yet?

[Beat Bandit]

The worst part of looking for this video was all the horrid, horrid videos that only warrant Anita's complaints.

Tropes vs. Women in Video Games: A Backer's Perspective

[Ted Belmont]

I guess if he wasn't talking about us fine, but then my question is why the fuck say that in the first place?

It's germane to the discussion because it's precisely the thing Sarkeesian's been facing since she first announced the series.  And because it's a Youtube video, so obviously there is at least one comments thread full of mouth-breathers out there.

Actually, she's disabled comments on the video itself, which has caused the mouth-breathers to start threads elsewhere about how she's censoring them and doesn't want to actually have a dialogue. Because YouTube comments are the perfect place for a reasonable dialogue.

[Büge]

Still not sure where the 160k went.

As near as I can estimate, it went towards:

• games
  
• systems to play the games
• technology to record footage of the games
  
• video, lighting and sound equipment
• editing software/hardware
  
• wages for the team to work on the videos (it's not just her)
• paying a designer for the new logo
  
• drafting up classroom materials

I dunno if this qualifies as her full-time job, but if so, there's probably a living wage in there, too.

[Classic]

The worst part of looking for this video was all the horrid, horrid videos that only warrant Anita's complaints.

But Ted already found it for you?

Damsel in Distress: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Let the shitstorm begin.

Wading into the muck, it's a whole lot of non-complaints the worst being that the video is biased because it is "one sided". As if cataloging tropes and their unfortunate implications for women and how they seem to feed into sexism has another side. As if the "side" of, "shut ups!" and "nu-uhs!" and "this oppression isn't that bad!" isn't being massively represented by every tweet and response video.

Ffffuuuuck.

[R^2]

I thought the "other side" is that men in media are portrayed as boorish idiots, sex maniacs, and stupid thugs rather than the noble Nice Guys everyone knows they really are. 

I am not saying it's not any less stupid an argument, but that's what I thought it was.

[Classic]

Ah, the "FEMINISTS ARE TEH REAL SEXISTS" one.
Actually there are fewer of those than you might expect!

... Also I thought it was women whose gender stereotype included "sex maniac"?

[TA]

I thought the "other side" is that men in media are portrayed as boorish idiots, sex maniacs, and stupid thugs rather than the noble Nice Guys everyone knows they really are. 

I am not saying it's not any less stupid an argument, but that's what I thought it was.

In a nutshell?



There's rigid gender roles, oversexualization, heteronormativity, and all that same shit on both sides of the fence.  Patriarchy hurts everybody.  An instructional series that focuses on just one aspect of that is by definition incomplete.  It's like saying you're doing an analysis of racial issues in games, and then only looking at black people.