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Author Topic: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE  (Read 8862 times)

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Mongrel

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #140 on: October 26, 2013, 06:20:17 PM »

So, can we talk about the list of real, material losses the US has already suffered in only a couple of days:

- General diplomatic relations between the US and dozens of countries has suffered in small ways; general loss of international goodwill
- Brazil has decided to make electronic privacy an issue at the UN (good for them!). This will probably have minimal impact on the US because lolUN, but you never know
- Some more credible intelligence agencies (notably Mossad, which already plays coy with the US on intel issue) will be just that much more apprehensive about data sharing with an agency that puts WE R SPYING ON U! in a document seen by a surveillance target, possibly affecting counter-terrorism measures
- Corollary to the above: Allied foreign governments may simply withhold or delay intelligence-sharing out of spite
- One more domestic headache for the administration to spend energy on, even if it's a small one for now
- Real intelligence targets will exercise more care to avoid surveillance, even if this all blows over
- Possible European leverage at the EU free trade talks. At the very least they'll be second-guessing themselves under the assumption the US knows what their trade goals are
- US ability to reduce the quantity Chinese government hacking through name-and-shame measures has all but been destroyed
- Forced agreements with allied nations to avoid similar intelligence collection in future could severely hamper US intelligence collection even in cases where it would have been perfectly appropriate; a case whereby they got greedy now they get nothing at all. Or ignore the agreement at even graver peril of future discovery
- New EU data protection rules being rushed in and beefed up
- Pending suspension of bank information-sharing agreements

Though, I'm actually pretty happy with quite a lot on that list.

Boy, how does that high-risk, low-reward espionage look now? 

EDIT: The best quote I've heard so far on the revelations was from two Washington academics who said that the damage from the NSA disclosures could “undermine Washington’s ability to act hypocritically and get away with it.”

:glee:


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Cthulhu-chan

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #141 on: October 27, 2013, 01:17:46 AM »

Haha, one can only hope.
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Royal☭

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #142 on: October 28, 2013, 02:28:54 AM »

Obama was unaware of and has subsequently shut down taps on world leaders

Oh whew, glad he took care of that. I'm glad Obama put a halt to his gross violations of privacy... on world leaders.

Mongrel

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #143 on: October 28, 2013, 03:27:21 AM »

Well, the German papers have all been saying that they have statements from "NSA sources" who stated Obama was briefed on this back in 2010 and that this has been going since 2002, when then-President Bush authorized the program.

So basically at this point people are going to believe whatever they want to believe and point to whatever source they figure bolsters their side.

In any case, even if you believe Obama, that still sounds terrible "Oh well our intelligence agencies had an established programme of monitoring the highest-ranking people on the planet and I didn't know anything about it at all, hurr durrr."
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Mongrel

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #144 on: October 28, 2013, 05:39:12 AM »

Now that Obama - the inquisitive, academic, "smart war"-fighting, intel-obsessed president - has denied knowing anything about this, nope nope nope, I'm shocked! SHOCKED! That there's eavesdropping of world leaders going on here! It's amazing the number of otherwise-intelligent people I've seen who have dropped right in line to defend him as ignorant.

I mean, I understand that most intel briefings probably do not reference the source, but this seems like a BIG FUCKING POINT to have never mentioned ever. Not to mention that awkward silence of a several days before declaring ignorance. If you gave your president plausible deniability, uh, would not the plan for this exact situation have been an immediate... denial?

I mean, FFS, Barry Obama is not exactly Ulysses S. Grant.

Sure, none of this is proof and with enough gymnastics, you can explain just about any of those points. But the more I think about this, the more I have to lean to "Of course he fucking knew."
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Royal☭

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #145 on: October 28, 2013, 05:54:35 AM »

Well, yeah, like during the Bush years there wasn't much of a difference between ignorant vs evil. Neither is a good quality in a leader. I'm more entertained by how people are to rush to defend Obama since he was apparently willing to at least go with the "We stopped listening on the 40 or so of the world's most powerful men and women" even though he's remained pretty tight-lipped on that whole "Still eavesdropping on the 300 million commoners" thing.

Mongrel

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #146 on: October 28, 2013, 02:18:19 PM »

Feinstein falls into line.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/28/nsa-surveillance-dianne-feinstein-opposed-allies

Quote from: Dianne Feinstein, chair of the Senate intelligence committee
Unlike NSA's collection of phone records under a court order, it is clear to me that certain surveillance activities have been in effect for more than a decade and that the Senate Intelligence Committee was not satisfactorily informed.

With respect to NSA collection of intelligence on leaders of US allies – including France, Spain, Mexico and Germany – let me state unequivocally: I am totally opposed.
Quote from: Dianne Feinstein
The White House has informed me that collection on our allies will not continue, which I support. But as far as I'm concerned, Congress needs to know exactly what our intelligence community is doing. To that end, the committee will initiate a major review into all intelligence collection programs."
Quote from: The Guardian
Feinstein's about-face presents the major challenge for the White House, which perceives the California Democrat as a key Senate surrogate on surveillance issues.
Quote from: Dianne Feinstein one month ago
"It is my opinion that the surveillance activities conducted under FISA, and other programs operated by the National Security Agency, are lawful, they are effective, and they are conducted under careful oversight within the NSA, by the Department of Justice and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, and by the FISA Court and the Congress,"

I liked this exchange:

<fmm> haha Dianne Feinstein as a defender of privacy rights, that's rich
<G4I> Well, that is what makes this notable.
<DS> She's turning over a new leaf
<DS> To look for private information to steal
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Thad

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #147 on: October 28, 2013, 03:25:17 PM »

My grandmother made an interesting point: the NSA's probably spying on Obama, too.

Doesn't mean he was unaware of the surveillance on world leaders, of course.  But I find it likelier than not that an intel agency would be looking for dirt on the US President.

Speaking of which, I heard a bit on the radio today about how the new FBI director is going to have all new agents go to the MLK Museum as a lesson on abuse of surveillance powers.  I think that as symbolic gestures go, that's a pretty damn good one, but obviously it doesn't mean I'm going to immediately start trusting the guy, either.

So when do we get a new NSA director who wants to teach his agents about the perils of overreach?

Feinstein falls into line.

Har.  I'm tempted to make a comparison to Goldwater turning against Nixon.

Which would be a huge exaggeration, of course, but at any rate when your #1 cheerleader turns on you, well, that means California must REALLY fucking hate it.
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Brentai

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #148 on: October 28, 2013, 03:40:52 PM »

Most of California's non-agricultural industries (IT, entertainment, and legal services) have spent the last decade being the middleman brokers for this shit, and it's hard to tell if they've been unwilling about it or are just plenty ready to throw their clients to the wolves if it lets them sink into the shadows unscrutinized.
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Mongrel

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #149 on: October 28, 2013, 03:57:56 PM »

I figured she was doing it at the behest of the administration, to help shore up the bullshit line about "He didn't know", mostly because of the timing of her announcement. But you have equally plausible explanations too.
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Brentai

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #150 on: October 30, 2013, 06:59:36 AM »

It's good to see people finally getting around to pointing out that this sort of thing is exactly what was set up in the PATRIOT Act, back when only a few small voices were speaking up to remind the country that Dubya wouldn't be President forever.  The press is having a field day with this but the politicos are sort of tugging on their collars, trying to figure out the correct way to explain that it's only okay when they do it.  Nice to see that there's still a level of hypocrisy that makes our leaders uncomfortable, even if it is at the very bottom of the barrel.
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Sharkey

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #151 on: October 31, 2013, 10:18:14 AM »

...the new FBI director is going to have all new agents go to the MLK Museum as a lesson on abuse of surveillance powers. 

It really is eerily similar. Like someone looked at COINTELPRO and the only thing they saw wrong with it was that it wasn't big enough.
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Mongrel

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Thad

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #153 on: December 06, 2013, 04:18:48 PM »

So all those paranoid nuts who insist the government can spy on you through your laptop's camera without you knowing about it?  Yeah, you can see where I'm going with this.

The government can spy on you through your laptop's camera without you knowing about it.

If you want to kill two birds with one stone, the EFF sells stickers.
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Mongrel

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #154 on: December 06, 2013, 06:17:48 PM »

I don't know whether to be horrified or gratified that even the worst hyperbole of the paranoid crowd is turning out to be true.

Well, okay, the worst is when they start hauling people away en masse for trumped-up nonsense (non-drug/racism-related trumped-up nonsense, that is). But you get what I mean.
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Cthulhu-chan

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #155 on: December 06, 2013, 06:25:19 PM »

Being camera shy finally pays off.
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Mongrel

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #156 on: December 10, 2013, 10:36:52 AM »

NYT reports that NSA and CIA infiltrated WoW and other MMOs

Some NSA staffer somewhere is a goddamn genius.
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Mongrel

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Brentai

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #158 on: January 07, 2014, 01:28:23 PM »

Guess it wasn't Capitalism after all!
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Brentai

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Re: RING RING RING TAP YOUR PHONE
« Reply #159 on: January 13, 2014, 11:26:04 AM »

I act facetious about it, but this shit is really starting to get up my ass personally. I test (and by extension, support) a B2B website with the majority of its customers in foreign countries. Our biggest customers are in the Persian Gulf, China, South America, the former Axis powers...

I mean, we're totally on great terms with our actual customers, but there's always a pin dropping in the room when we realize that the reason some feature has suddenly stopped working only on their end is because their nation now considers itself to be at e-war with our nation.
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