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Author Topic: New Doctor Who  (Read 44768 times)

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Thad

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #920 on: November 19, 2013, 02:52:32 PM »

Eh, cat was well out of the bag by the time you said anything about it.  It's not like I jumped straight to your post without reading the half-dozen before it.

But yeah, I said ages ago that McCoy really is the prototype for all the modern Doctors.  When you think of Human Nature, with its fucking biblical smackdown of an ending, being an adaptation of a Seventh Doctor story, it makes an awful lot of sense.

McCoy really was the Do Not Fuck with the Doctor Doctor, the one with the wheels-within-wheels schemes who had the wrath of a vengeful god beneath his buffoonish exterior and was playing absolutely everyone.

Fenric may be the greatest example of that -- and the show at its most morally complex, with its emphasis on atrocities committed by the British during the War.  And it's not an accident that Smith pulled the same trick of making Amy lose faith in him that McCoy pulled with Ace.

But as I mentioned a few posts ago, Remembrance was pretty fucking big too.  An opening shot like that?  The Time War was pretty much inevitable, if it wasn't already after Genesis.  Daleks don't back down and lick their wounds when they're dealt a crushing defeat; they escalate.  What did he think was going to happen? 

Not his war?  Well...maybe not McGann's.

(And as for Genesis, Constantine's right that the Time Lords pushed Four into it -- for about a minute.  He wanted nothing to do with it, right up until they told him it was about the Daleks, and then he started to prick up his ears.)
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Bal

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #921 on: November 19, 2013, 03:22:26 PM »

Reminded of the ending of Asylum of the Daleks.

"They hate you so much. Why do they hate you so much?"
"I fought them. Many, many times."
"We have grown stronger in fear of you"
"I know. I tried to stop."
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Thad

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #922 on: November 19, 2013, 04:42:50 PM »

So the ladies in the video weren't quite the one-offs I gathered; they're the Sisterhood of Karn from Brain of Morbius.  Which is interesting given, again, that Moffat's teased that we're miscounting the Doctor's regenerations.

You know, I still haven't actually seen Brain of Morbius; I'm aware of a few of the plot beats and it comes highly recommended.  Now might be a good time to check it out...


(And per that article, the Sisterhood's origin is partially told in the novel Lungbarrow, which was also the one that established the Doctor as a reincarnation of one of the three founding Time Lords, along with Omega and Rassilon.  While, again, I don't expect we'll see that plot come to anything like its original intended conclusion, I DO still think all those omega symbols over the last few years were building toward something and we're likely to see Omega at some point.)
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Smiler

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Thad

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #924 on: November 20, 2013, 04:51:52 PM »

Apparently Moffat stated in a recent interview that the Crisis Doctor does indeed count as a regeneration.

That would certainly imply that Smith is indeed the thirteenth incarnation and I've been barking up the wrong tree with the Morbius theory -- though it could be that we've already seen the resolution of the Thirteen Lives plot point with the Sisterhood of Karn and Hurt is indeed the first of an entire new set of regenerations.

It still seems like the sort of thing Moffat would be more likely to draw out, given that "the Doctor has to face his own inevitable death" has been one of his favorite recurring plot points.

It does bear noting that the Impossible Astronaut shot him three times.  So the Silence was operating under the impression that the Eleventh Doctor really does only have two lives left.  So either we know something they don't, or they know something we don't.  (On the one hand, you'd think they'd know about the War Doctor given their obsession with Doctor as Warrior; on the other hand, there's a certain pleasing irony in a cult dedicated to wiping out the Doctor because he's a dangerous warlord not knowing the half of it.)
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Smiler

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #925 on: November 20, 2013, 06:20:08 PM »

It does bear noting that the Impossible Astronaut shot him three times.  So the Silence was operating under the impression that the Eleventh Doctor really does only have two lives left.  So either we know something they don't, or they know something we don't.  (On the one hand, you'd think they'd know about the War Doctor given their obsession with Doctor as Warrior; on the other hand, there's a certain pleasing irony in a cult dedicated to wiping out the Doctor because he's a dangerous warlord not knowing the half of it.)

I'm pretty sure he got shot three times because you gotta kill a dude and what better way to do it than to shoot him a few times. Two to start the regeneration and then another in the middle so he's dead for good.

Also a lot of this stuff seems a lot like Moffat deciding he wants to make more marks on the Doctor Who canon rather than a very well thought out multi-season plan. I GOTTA BE THE ONE WHO HANDWAVES THIS OLD BIT OF CANON AND I'M GONNA DO SO BY INFLATING THE DOCTOR'S POWER LEVEL REGENERATIONS.
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Thad

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #926 on: November 21, 2013, 04:54:07 PM »

I'm pretty sure he got shot three times because you gotta kill a dude and what better way to do it than to shoot him a few times. Two to start the regeneration and then another in the middle so he's dead for good.

IIRC the regeneration effect started each time.  But either way, I don't think the number three was coincidental.

Also a lot of this stuff seems a lot like Moffat deciding he wants to make more marks on the Doctor Who canon rather than a very well thought out multi-season plan. I GOTTA BE THE ONE WHO HANDWAVES THIS OLD BIT OF CANON AND I'M GONNA DO SO BY INFLATING THE DOCTOR'S POWER LEVEL REGENERATIONS.

I really don't think so.  I think handling the regeneration limit is the result of adding Hurt into the line, not the other way around.

Whereas Hurt's inclusion is probably a mix of Eccleston passing on the fiftieth and that it frankly makes for a pretty interesting twist.

I do think that it's quite clear that Moffat's had a seasons-long arc running that involves repeated use of the idea of the Doctor facing his own ultimate end.  I don't think the regeneration limit, or Hurt, were originally part of the plan, but I think they both fit nicely.

I also think he's got the good sense to understand that a regeneration is a jumping-on point for new viewers and he should relax the major arc stuff for awhile.  I don't think that means he'll try and cram a resolution to every dangling plot thread into the Christmas special, but I do think -- well, I do think that the next season is going to look an awful lot like the last one did, with an episodic bent and no real payoff toward the Silence Will Fall arc until the finale.

I'm fine with this.  Last season had the Gunslinger, Cold War, and Nightmare in Silver, none of which really built toward the major arc but all of which I thoroughly enjoyed.  Even the episodes that weren't great had enjoyable moments -- Rory's dad, Strax, Richard E Grant.

(And it bears noting that if Moffat were REALLY just doing the War Doctor arc to handle a bit of dangling trivia, Grant would be playing him, not Hurt.  Part of me still thinks that's a missed opportunity -- but having Hurt play the Doctor is pretty damn amazing.)
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Royal☭

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #927 on: November 22, 2013, 01:17:40 AM »

Google put up a Doctor Who doodle, but you need to check out Google.co.uk


THAD EDIT: Fixed link.

Mongrel

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #928 on: November 22, 2013, 04:08:34 AM »

We have it here by default. Huh. Fun little game. Having your choice of Doctor determine the difficulty level (i.e. number of lives) is a nice touch.
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Thad

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #929 on: November 22, 2013, 05:46:36 PM »

Welp, almost that time.

A reminder that some of us are waiting to see it in the theater on Monday.  I'd appreciate it if you would all use appropriate spoiler tags until then.

But I don't actually trust you to do it, so I'm staying out of the thread until then.
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McDohl

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #930 on: November 23, 2013, 08:26:23 AM »

I saw it.

That was amazing.
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Bal

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #931 on: November 23, 2013, 08:28:02 AM »

A++
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Sharkey

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #932 on: November 23, 2013, 09:46:50 AM »

I just caught a really clever nod to the TV movie in that short. One of the first things 8 does is raid a hospital locker for that Wild Bill costume, and in the course of that he picks up a gun belt, stares at it for a second, and then drops it. Meanwhile, the last thing he does/first thing Hurt does is pick up a gun belt and put it on. It's a really nice touch, and so specifically mirrored 8s first character moment that I don't think it was a coincidence.
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Lottel

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #933 on: November 23, 2013, 10:28:42 AM »

My only minor complaint about the 50th have to do with the fact [spoiler] Clara's in it. [/spoiler]
Other than that, wonderful in every way.

The fact I saw Adventure in Space and Time directly after probably didn't hurt though.
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Niku

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #934 on: November 23, 2013, 11:38:01 AM »

Honestly better than I could have anticipated.
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McDohl

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #935 on: November 23, 2013, 11:47:30 AM »

[spoiler]So, The Moment.  I think that Billie Piper knocked it out of the park with her performance, and what a big curveball as to her presence.  Everyone I talked to expected her to just do the same kind of thing that Rose and Sarah Jane did in School Reunion, but what happened?  Totally not that.  And here's a theory I posited on Talking Time: could The Moment actually contain a TARDIS core?  It seems like when she first talks to the War Doctor, she has a lot of the same tics that Idris/Sexy had in "The Doctor's Wife".  Mixing up the past and the future, and all.[/spoiler]
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Lottel

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #936 on: November 23, 2013, 03:47:17 PM »

[spoiler]I love Ten's plan to expose a shapeshifter was to charm, date, and then propose to said shapeshifter.[/spoiler]
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Bal

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #937 on: November 23, 2013, 04:07:23 PM »

[spoiler]So, The Moment.  I think that Billie Piper knocked it out of the park with her performance, and what a big curveball as to her presence.  Everyone I talked to expected her to just do the same kind of thing that Rose and Sarah Jane did in School Reunion, but what happened?  Totally not that.  And here's a theory I posited on Talking Time: could The Moment actually contain a TARDIS core?  It seems like when she first talks to the War Doctor, she has a lot of the same tics that Idris/Sexy had in "The Doctor's Wife".  Mixing up the past and the future, and all.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Given that all of that technology is based on the same principles put to different use, The Moment's personified form must be very similar to a TARDIS matrix, except that it is obviously not bound by it's non-linear nature to the point that it cannot communicate directly. The choice of Rose as a form that The Doctor would find familiar and comforting is exactly the kind of mistake you would expect, but her actual personality was completely different and definitely sourced from The Moment itself.[/spoiler]
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DeusExMatilda

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #938 on: November 23, 2013, 04:33:54 PM »

I've read a few valid criticisms, and I don't necessarily disagree with all of them, but I honestly can't remember the last time I enjoyed an episode more. A lot of what I've grown wary with in recent Moffat stories seems to have disappeared with the extra time he's had to work with (both on screen, and off screen). Pacing was solid and never descended into that regular sense that he'd had to pick between the cool set-pieces he'd come up with and the explanation that made them possible.

Plus, it was largely consistent to its own rules. [spoiler]Though there wasn't a good reason why every Doctor but 11 had to forget the whole thing ever happening, beyond convenience. And the Tom Baker bit was largely just pointing and saying "Look, it's Tom Baker," but that's cool.[/spoiler]

I especially liked [spoiler]8.5 being a better Doctor than 10 & 11, right down to sassing them over constantly waving their sonic screwdrivers at stuff. It only got better when Hurt sassed Smith about overacting too. Better Doctor, better at being the Doctor. Just good fun.

And I couldn't help but smile at the dig at Eccleston's appearance. Yeah, I know he made comments about his ears as the Doctor, but I found it weirdly scathing coming from somebody else in his absence. Tom Baker finally got over being typecast, so maybe 9 will show up for a 60th or 75th anniversary.[/spoiler]

I always felt like the Time War was RTD's way of (quite reasonably) handwaving away the residual clutter from the classic series. [spoiler]Moffat just retconned all that shit the fuck back in and I love him for it.[/spoiler]

The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot is a pretty funny half-hour of Davison, McCoy, and Colin Baker trying to get into the anniversary special. It has a bunch of fun cameos, and Colin Baker still can't act.
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McDohl

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Re: New Doctor Who
« Reply #939 on: November 23, 2013, 05:02:36 PM »

Yeah, I just watched the Five(ish) Doctors, and it was adorable.  I guess we know where those photos of Davison, Baker, and McCoy protesting outside the BBC came from. 
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