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Author Topic: Wonder Woman  (Read 15053 times)

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Bal

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2008, 04:43:13 PM »

Wonder Woman's best rogue is Doctor Psycho, and the best shit he's done he did in other people's books.
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Rico

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2008, 07:17:31 PM »

(Then again, the same's probably true of Flash, and he has a GREAT rogues gallery.)
Got me again, Flash!

Quote
You want people to care about Wonder Woman?  You want her to be relevant again?  Get rid of the vague lesbian undertones.  Make them overt lesbian overtones.
Of course, since this is DC we're talking about, all that means is that she dated Renee Montoya for a while and the subject will never be brought up again.
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Cannon

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2008, 07:46:30 PM »

Wonder Woman just seems to be a bit of an odd duck, really. Writers and fans loooove to contrast Batman and Superman, and Diana is just... Kinda' there. Maybe male writers (who dominate the genre) are intimidated by strong women on some level? Perhaps it seems like too much of a disconnect when she - as a mystical, mythic heroine - is set in the same narrative as a somewhat down-to-Earth pulp hero and science fiction icon? There's no great tragedy in her origin story, either; her island didn't exactly sink or explode, and Hippolyta wasn't shot by Ares or anything. We can easily define who she is, but not so easily what she stands for or how she acts on those beliefs in a way that's distinctly different from "the boys."

I mean... Superman's got the Secret CitadelFortress of Solitude and his Silver Age whimsy, Batman's got his intellect, issues, and motif... And Wonder Woman's got an invisible jet. Hmm.
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Mongrel

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2008, 08:07:13 PM »

Well, she does have her SERIOUSBUSINESS face. :disapprove:
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Cannon

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 08:10:05 PM »

Yeah, okay. So she does pull a Vash the Stampede from time to time. That's... Well, certainly different than Superman and Batman as they have been for a good, long while now.
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Brentai

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2008, 09:49:31 PM »

So... just like any man, but prone to sudden, irrational emotional outbursts.


Yep.


...Yep.
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Cannon

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2008, 09:54:19 PM »

We're not going with your "let's make her a rugmuncher" plan, Brent. Even if all the people that drew dirty superhero art would have heart attacks from the news.
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Thad

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2008, 12:56:49 PM »

Of course you stand the very real danger of making Stoic Wonder Woman slip into Masturbatory Wonder Woman really quickly

That's exactly the problem.  Rico already made the Montoya/Batwoman reference.  That was a case of editorial (ostensibly) trying to ratchet up the diversity of their universe, but in practice it was utterly exploitative, just red meat for the fanboys and free publicity from the mainstream press (largely wasted; she appeared for a few issues of 52, disappeared for two years, and AFAIK STILL has not appeared in costume in a Batman comic).

There ARE writers who can pull it off.  I haven't been reading Simone's run (in fact, my recent inventory of my collection demonstrated that I own exactly two issues of Wonder Woman), but she's the go-to for strong women in superhero comics right now.  Of course my opinion of Morrison is that he can do just about anything, and I'd love to see him take something like that on but to be honest I'm glad he's sticking with Batman and getting back to Seaguy and other extraneous projects instead.

Anyway.  Everybody knows the best lesbian couple in superhero comics is Harley and Ivy.
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Brentai

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2008, 01:33:21 PM »

That's a given, but, er, they're sort of evil.

Of course, most real-world lesbians probably would act exactly like that if all cops were as useless as the GCPD.
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Mongrel

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2008, 03:23:40 PM »

Of course you stand the very real danger of making Stoic Wonder Woman slip into Masturbatory Wonder Woman really quickly

That's exactly the problem.  Rico already made the Montoya/Batwoman reference.  That was a case of editorial (ostensibly) trying to ratchet up the diversity of their universe, but in practice it was utterly exploitative, just red meat for the fanboys and free publicity from the mainstream press (largely wasted; she appeared for a few issues of 52, disappeared for two years, and AFAIK STILL has not appeared in costume in a Batman comic).

There ARE writers who can pull it off.  I haven't been reading Simone's run (in fact, my recent inventory of my collection demonstrated that I own exactly two issues of Wonder Woman), but she's the go-to for strong women in superhero comics right now.  Of course my opinion of Morrison is that he can do just about anything, and I'd love to see him take something like that on but to be honest I'm glad he's sticking with Batman and getting back to Seaguy and other extraneous projects instead.

Anyway.  Everybody knows the best lesbian couple in superhero comics is Harley and Ivy.

This is funny.

This morning, before you replied, I was trying to post before going to work, but the boards went down. My point was basically "They should never make WW a Lesbian. Why? Because DC Would only ever do that for exploitative (yes, I was even going to use that word) reasons."

 ::D:
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Thad

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2008, 03:48:49 PM »

I think it's less a case of "great minds think alike" and more a case of "that is the obvious truth."
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Mongrel

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2008, 04:12:05 PM »

Oh agreed, definitely. It's rather blinding.

[insert crack about 'But DC would NEVER do that!' hyperlinked to a page about Doomsday, Crisis-Crisis-Crisis, or whatever-the-hell else here]
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Brentai

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2008, 04:29:55 PM »

Wasn't the character created for exploitative reasons in the first place?
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Royal☭

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2008, 04:47:45 PM »

Then lesbian Wonder Woman would be Parallax... and stuffed in a fridge.

Bal

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2008, 04:52:33 PM »

I think you'd have to reboot Wonder Woman to write something really interesting about her. I don't mean that Diana Prince: Secret Agent nonsense, I just mean something like what JL/U did. She has the demands of continuity weighing her down so heavily at this point that it's practically impossible to get a decent plot off the ground. This is an opinion I share for all the big three, but she's definitely the worst case.
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Detonator

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2008, 05:45:34 PM »

The only continuity Wonder Woman has is the slutty costume, the bracelets, and maybe the lasso.

I agree that those things do not help.
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Saturn

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2008, 11:53:17 PM »

Make her a bisexual professional dominatrix, possibly with a really weird fetish
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Thad

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2008, 11:57:29 PM »

Wasn't the character created for exploitative reasons in the first place?

The problem is that the line between sexual liberation and sexual exploitation can be hard to pin down, and can change wildly over decades.

I think you'd have to reboot Wonder Woman to write something really interesting about her. I don't mean that Diana Prince: Secret Agent nonsense, I just mean something like what JL/U did. She has the demands of continuity weighing her down so heavily at this point that it's practically impossible to get a decent plot off the ground. This is an opinion I share for all the big three, but she's definitely the worst case.

All-Star Wonder Woman could be good or it could be bad.  But if we're talking main DCU, then my answer is fuck. that.  No more reboots, no more crises.  Individual interpretation and selectively ignoring continuity are swell, but no more starting from scratch.
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Bal

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2008, 04:47:30 AM »

I don't think any Crisis has ever said anything more about Wonder Woman than just retconning her involvement in WWII.
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Brentai

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Re: Wonder Woman
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2008, 08:17:04 AM »

Wasn't the character created for exploitative reasons in the first place?

The problem is that the line between sexual liberation and sexual exploitation can be hard to pin down, and can change wildly over decades.

I was almost certain that, when you uncover the deep hidden past of DC's executive decisions, Wonder Woman was born when some suit somewhere said "Make a female Superman so we can sell comic books to girls."  Apparently according to Wikipedia though, it wasn't quite like that.

Quote
William Moulton Marston, a psychologist already famous for inventing the polygraph (forerunner to the magic lasso), struck upon an idea for a new kind of superhero, one who would triumph not with fists or firepower, but with love. 'Fine,' said Elizabeth. 'But make her a woman.'[4]

...I never knew that the same guy who created Wonder Woman's TRUTH BONDAGE power also invented the real-life lie detector.  That is AWESOME.

Slightly further down the article explains why she's not exactly the pacifist superhero that was originally envisioned.  I should probably read it before mouthing off about DC's motives, but right now I need to get to work.  For MANKIND.
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