Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Rico]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

Let me go in another direction by paraphrasing one of Bal's earlier posts, because we're (this is my surprised face) pretty much on the same page of this one.

I agree with her overall message and theme. Poor example choice does not invalidate her broader overall message. But if you are in agreement with her message and a poor example comes up, it raises several questions: "Is she being dishonest when she claims that she is theoretically okay with women dying in stories?" (Probably not) "Is she just lazy in picking her examples?" (Most likely) "Is there something to this scenario which I thought was okay that is not okay?" (What I think your claim is regarding Dishonored).

Now, I get that you haven't played Dishonored. I think Bal's summary (which is basically the first 30 seconds of the game, making it even more irritating that it was lazily used as an example) pretty clearly shows that the Empress is a strong character who is killed for strong story reasons and that the motivation for her killing had nothing to do with her sex or the main character. But you seem to still have a problem with it, which raises Bal's earlier question of, "When she goes on to say that women dying in stories is OK, I am forced to ask 'When?'"

[Royal☭]

Wait wait wait. What exactly does the first 30 seconds do to make the Empress a strong character? All the stuff that happens afterwards is not part of the Empress's character. I mean, am I missing something, or does she die at the beginning of the game to kick off the events of the rest of the game or not? I freely admit to not playing the game, but you guys haven't suggested anything to me that she does more than just die then everyone else gets to do the story. Like, my issue is you guys keep trying to paint up the Empress's death as not an example of what it seems to be.

[Brentai]

I think he's saying that you learn why the Empress was murdered over the course of the game, and it becomes clear that her gender has fuck all to do with anything.

[Royal☭]

I think he's saying that you learn why the Empress was murdered over the course of the game, and it becomes clear that her gender has fuck all to do with anything.

Anita says that the game implies a relationship between the Empress and the protagonist, most notably that they parented the hostage-child together. So it sounds like the gender has fuck all to do with a lot of things. But still, would you then deny that it is an example of a woman's role being to be killed to propel the plot forward? I get that a bunch of political machinations and intrigue happens after her death, but it still sounds like this is an example of a woman being killed entirely to motivate the other actors in the story.

[patito]

The thing is, if a king had died to propel the story forward would it have been ok then? I mean, that's what royalty usually does in stories, they get killed in gruesome and helpless ways.

[François]

See, I think this comes across as trying to skirt the issue. You wed the idea of external social forces trying to exert an influence over the story of the game, but then hand wave it all with "a creator's responsibility is quality." There comes a point where even a well made Damsel in Distress story is, still, a Damsel in Distress story. At this point in time, the Damsel in Distress trope is so prevalent and so overused that one would think that someone making a well-crafted game could at least craft a better quality narrative.

Ultimately, nobody in this argument is suggesting that somebody exert control over a person's game. Well, unless you're a publisher, in case you probably are, because, you know, publishers. But one should question why, if you're willing to acknowledge that Damsel in Distress is overused and problematic, it still becomes you're go to as a creator. From all the countless numbers of stories, motivations and characters you could put in your game, why would you choose one you would freely admit has problems?

I could say that it is overused, but "problematic", not really. Or rather, it is only problematic in that it is overused. It's not inherently worse than any other type of story that might be equally overused. But it could be done well, with enough skill. Of course, it being so overused makes it difficult to do well, and in fact historically it has very often been done very poorly, but if one is up to the challenge then I am on board.

Brentai, I support your princess-rescuing antics

Interesting response.  A character I took pains to describe as "a heroine" had her status eroded to "princess".  A lot of other comments I see also seem to trend toward the assumption that the woman has no role in the story other than to patiently wait to be rescued.

Oh yeah, I see, I definitely misread your post. It made me think you felt you potentially had something to apologize for so I figured a character more helpless than you intended. The point still stands though. You make the stories you want to make and that is that. If you want to tailor it to expected reactions from a portion of your audience then that is legitimate, especially in a commercial endeavor, but if you just gotta tell what you gotta tell, then that is also how art can work and no one should discourage you from it, so long as you are okay with eventual criticism.

[Rico]

She is a strong character in that she is a good Empress, was beloved by her citizenry, and everything went to shit after she stopped ruling. We don't need explicit statements of what specifically she's done to get to that point, but she is immediately and then continually portrayed as good at her job.

The conjecture that Corvo and the Empress may have been involved and that Emily may be his kid is unconfirmed (and intentionally ambiguous), but whichever way that coin-flip falls, it would do absolutely nothing to change what Corvo does over the course of the game.

But still, would you then deny that it is an example of a woman's role being to be killed to propel the plot forward? I get that a bunch of political machinations and intrigue happens after her death, but it still sounds like this is an example of a woman being killed entirely to motivate the other actors in the story.

Yes, I would absolutely deny it. That she dies is due to other actors in the story already having strong motivations, and well... I'm struggling with a diplomatic way to put this:
The protagonist is a bodyguard to a political figure. I mean, hell, when the police and secret service investigated the JFK assassination was JFK assassinated "entirely" to motivate the secret fucking service?




I'll just add this in since no one's posted. My main question is: If this is an example of what games are doing wrong with regards to female characters, how and why? Because from where I and a lot of other people are sitting it looks like it should be fine. Is there something we're missing? Is Sarkeesian just taking an extreme viewpoint? What's going on here?

[Joxam]

I think, in a weird way, it should also be noted that in Dishonored she dies yes, but she is also with you throughout the entire rest of the game. I mean sure, this is achieved by you carrying around her STILL BEATING HEART and a mental link through MAGICKS, but she is literally the one telling you what to do and when to do it throughout the entire game. She dies within the first ten minutes, but she's also, by a WIDE margin, the most fleshed out character in the game, as Corvo is mostly 'silent hero'.

[Classic]

Dude, reality isn't a fiction crafted by a narrator.
Apples. Oranges.

Or rather, it is only problematic in that it is overused.

Well, the over use and how it reinforces or plays to (negative) gender stereotypes.

She is a strong character in that she is a good Empress

From what I understand the Empress isn't removed from the story at that point either... But... well... spoilers? And problematic all on its own. I'm willing to give Dishonored the benefit of the doubt because they're definitely trying to address systemic sexism and how it exists even in a society with a female monarch. But...
Campster rambles about Dishonered:
Errant Signal - Dishonored
Actual talk of sexism starts at 15:00

[Rico]

Dude, reality isn't a fiction crafted by a narrator.
Apples. Oranges.

Pretend for a moment that the JFK assassination was a completely fictional event written for a video game, that in that game you play as the head of the Secret Service, and that the gameplay begins shortly after the assassination. Would this be "an example of a woman President being killed entirely to motivate the other actors in the story."?

[Classic]

Hey, sorry for snapping with the "Apples. Oranges." Thing. You did not deserve that. I was also imprecise in my language, though I think you understood my sentiments.

REVIEW OF SHIT WE ALREADY KNOW INCOMING:
As soon as we're analyzing a narrative that we can assume to be deliberate (kind of essential to the discussion I think), we can start making comparisons. In real life, people's motivations are complicated and our exposure to them doesn't end after the conclusion of a story/narrative. However, even if we're writing non-fiction the person who presents the non-fiction as a narrative is making choices about what to include or not to include.

In that game you play as the head of the Secret Service, and that the gameplay begins shortly after the assassination.

ACTUAL ANSWER:
You've framed it so that JFK's only impact to the narrative is dying. So, yes, unless JFK continues to appear in the narrative (as a character with agency) after his death his agency is unimportant to the narrative. JFK's death is being used to explain or as the catalyst for the rest of the narrative.

Of course, it's kind of a different kettle of fish when we're talking about women... and I don't think we need another paragraph describing what I'm pretty sure we all already know.

[Bongo Bill]

The victim of a murder mystery is rarely a character at all. (Some writers are good enough to write characters whose sole interaction with the story is posthumous.)

[Zaratustra]

the average action hero only cares about two people: his girl and the president

[Bongo Bill]

what about the scumbag responsible for the whole mess (assuming neither his girl nor the president is the scumbag in question)

[Brentai]

What if your girl is the President and also responsible for this mess?

This is an important consideration if you're going to date Friday.

[Mongrel]

This is another fine mess you've gotten us into.

[Classic]

I realize now that I didn't reply to this business:

My main question is: If this is an example of what games are doing wrong with regards to female characters, how and why? Because from where I and a lot of other people are sitting it looks like it should be fine. Is there something we're missing?

The point of including Dishonored, even if Dishonored represents a good game or a game where the trope is meaningfully subverted (though I'd bet that Sarkeesian has a fistful of problems with Dishonored above and beyond this use-of-trope), is to show how pervasive and unquestioned the trope is. Assuming Dishonored is to sexism what SpecOps: The Line is to fascist jingoism, they both only work as criticism of those tropes because they've got tropes to subvert, no?

Again: Sarkeesian's going to waste a minute of every video reminding people that it's OK to criticize stuff you like. It's even possible she (or rather, Feminist Frequency) likes Dishonored overall.

EDIT:
Retroactively added correction described below.

[Rico]

they both only work because they've got tropes to subvert, no?

That is a hell of an assertion. Would you care to follow through on that?Because, uh, boy...

[Classic]

Dammit Rico. Be more psychic.

they both only work as criticism of those tropes because they've got those tropes to subvert, no?

That is a hell of an assertion. Would you care to follow through on that?Because, uh, boy...

Maybe you should be a little more specific about your complaint if you'd already understood that as my assertion?
I think it has been clear that technical proficiency and message aren't necessarily linked since Triumph of the Will.

[Büge]

Anita Sarkeesian and the Trouble With Magic Bullets