Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mongrel]

[Star Trek: Into Darkness] was as stupid as we said it would be; so what you should really be gloating about is, "I told you that J.J. Abrams was going to do something so stupid that you wouldn't believe it." Because when you described it, it was the dumbest thing ever. And then, yeah, he did it. He did the dumbest thing ever. Which I never would have anticipated

It's like if somebody posted, "When they make the new Star Wars movie, some of the characters will be cartoons mixed in with that live action." And we say, that's ridiculous, because do you know how stupid that would be? And we go and see a new Star Wars movie, and halfway through the movie, a cartoon Benedict Cumberbatch appears and says, "You're about to sing a different toon, Skywalker." That's about the level of filmmaking that we're talking about

Another aspect of the plot is that the rogue faction is trying to "militarize Starfleet." The phrase "militarize Starfleet," which is actually used in the film, is so pregnant with stupidity that it's hard to put into words. Let's just ask -- militarize this organization of lieutenants and captains and admirals, and ships and cadets and weapons and courts-martial, and enlistments and commissions? Oh my god somebody stop him

He's trying to make the space navy into a military, help, help

[Büge]

Where is that from?

[Friday]

The first quote is just flat untrue, and the second is just nitpicking.

In regards to the first, Into Darkness is not a bad movie and if you think so then you are a fucking snob.

In regards to the second, yeah, it's stupid to say "militarize" about an organization that is already a military operation, but the meaning is actually "turn from something like the enlightened TOS/TNG Starfleet into something like the Mirror Universe Starfleet" which I don't know if there is a word for. Imperialize, maybe?

Section 31 has always been the "Mirror Universe" faction within Starfleet. For those of you who haven't watched DS9 or Enterprise, think of them as Cerberus from ME.

[Royal☭]

Actually isn't Starfleet supposed to be a science endeavor, and not a military? I mean, in spite of their weapons systems.

[Caithness]

Both quotes may have been untrue and/or nitpicky, but that doesn't stop either of them from being completely hilarious.

[Friday]

Their goal is exploration and science, yes. But because the Galaxy turns out to be populated by people who aren't so, uh, lets say "reserved", they made sure to have weapons.

Enterprise actually starts off with the ship leaving earth without any weapon systems other than basic torpedos, and I don't mean the photon kind. Just regular torpedos. They make it a point, over and over, that they don't do anything at all against shields and are hardly useful otherwise. Enterprise gets its ass kicked all over the place by pirates and shit for the duration of season 1 until they go back and get Phase Cannons.

Anyway, it's not like Into Darkness was a movie that will change your life, or even make you think, really. It's just a fun summer action sci-fi flick with a lot of explosions. Saying it's bottom of the barrel bad, like whoever wrote that quote is saying, means you are a fucking snob.

Both quotes may have been untrue and/or nitpicky, but that doesn't stop either of them from being completely hilarious.

I cracked a smile at sing a different toon, I'll admit.

[Brentai]

If someone said they were going to "Militarize the police" with its lieutenants and sergeants and captains, would you be worried?  Okay then.

That said, I don't recall ever seeing an actual dedicated defense force in Star Trek.  As far as I can tell, Starfleet is Earth's exploratory/science organization and its defensive military.

[Smiler]

RED SQUAD! RED SQUAD! RED SQUAD!

Edit: Don't forget the like 3 shuttles that made up the mars defense perimeter in Best of Both Worlds.

[Mongrel]

Both quotes may have been untrue and/or nitpicky, but that doesn't stop either of them from being completely hilarious.

Yeah. This. The views of the quote-ee may not necessarily reflect the views of etc. etc. (they better not; they're from a dude I know who is generally very funny, but who is also waaaayyyy right-wing).

==========

Anyway, Starfleet is nominally a hybrid organization. Yes the science/exploration stuff is their day job, but they clearly also serve as the military and have done so in many many wars over the history of the Star Trek franchise.

Not as a national guard or reserve, not as the police, but the front-line military. There isn't some "proper" Federation military that shows up in a box with "in case of war, break glass" on the front. It's Starfleet that fights those battles.

Sure, Enterprise did try to return to the "science and exploration only" idea, but historically that's an exception not the rule.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's sort of silly too, but it just made for easier storytelling over the years. It probably happened because too many writers conflated "military style organization" with "actual military" and because it gave them way more leeway to have Kirk (and later Sisko and Picard) do lots of shooty pew pew pew heroics.

[Friday]

Aside from the movies, Picard hardly does any shooty pew pew heroics. I think I can count the number of times Enterprise gets into a fight that seriously threatens it and aren't just using their phasers as a tool on one hand, and half of those are the Borg.

IN FACT

1. Best of Both Worlds

2. Descent

3. Yesterday's Enterprise (this may not even count because it's from an alternate spacetime where surprise surprise Starfleet is more "militarized")

4. Uh that episode where they all get their memories erased (probably doesn't count) (also the enemies they were facing were not a threat at all, which eventually leads to Picard AND Worf refusing to fight)

5. The episode with Spock where they blow up an enemy ship in one shot (after it attacks them) because it was carrying a fuckload of arms (not done by Picard)

There are probably a few more, but TNG has basically nil ship to ship combat outside of the Borg.

I can't even remember them getting into an actual fight with the Romulans. A lot of stare downs across the neutral zone, but the fight was always a cold one. The closest we got was "The Defector" in which Picard makes his threat "not idle" and Tomalak decides to back down instead of starting a war.

DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise on the other hand have lots of fighting.

Really, even TOS has hardly any ship to ship combat. TNG has always stood out, however, because Picard consistently finds a third option to FIRIN' MAH LAZOR.

EDIT: I forgot Q Who. Even then, they only fire at the ship to get away, not to destroy it.

[Mongrel]

Well, the Borg were an existential threat to the Federation and Starfleet did serve in it's capacity as a military against them, but I  completely agree on Picard.

Picard was good like that. When I named captains, there was a reason I put him after Sisko. Part of what makes the Borg such an impressive threat was how often they held back on the violence. The few times when Picard genuinely got his hands dirty were all the more impressive for being so. Sort-of like the classic Obi-Wan moment in the bar: "Holy shit, he can fight too!" (not exactly the same, but close). 

I didn't mention Voyager (which has an absurd amount of fighting), because as a lost and isolated ship, they're not really part of any faction or fleet other than temporary alliances of convenience.

And of course TOS has a good amount of fighting too, though not so much as you might think and not half so much as Voyager or DS9.

[François]

Anyway, Starfleet is nominally a hybrid organization. Yes the science/exploration stuff is their day job, but they clearly also serve as the military and have done so in many many wars over the history of the Star Trek franchise.

Not as a national guard or reserve, not as the police, but the front-line military. There isn't some "proper" Federation military that shows up in a box with "in case of war, break glass" on the front. It's Starfleet that fights those battles.

Well, science guys tend to have the best guns. In a setting where even the most minute advances in technology can turn into devastating military advantages, it makes sense that you want the people doing cutting edge research and the people in charge of winning your wars (defensively or otherwise) to be one and the same.

[Sharkey]

Actually, I'm going to come right out and agree with "the militarization of starfleet" being utterly absurd in the context of the JJ Abrams movies. The examples you're providing of the organization as primarily humanitarian science/exploration/diplomatically oriented and just incidentally a well armed peacekeeping force don't stand up very well in an alternate timeline where everything is already shown to be intensely and even primarily militaristic. Especially compare scenes of star fleet academy in the older series and in the new movies. Instead of an elite officer's school that in all honesty looks pretty hippie-dippy and borders on crystal-spires-and-togas territory, it's now presented exactly like a boot camp for barroom brawling enlisted men that wouldn't look even a little bit out of place in Starship Troopers.

Where the new flicks diverge the most from the old is in their presentation of starfleet as a primarily militaristic organization, offering "the militarization of starfleet" as any kind of legitimate threat is just something these movies haven't earned. If you're carrying memories of the old shows, yes, that is credibly anithetical to what you know about this organization. If you're operating solely based on what you've observed in the last two movies, however, it's just fucking absurd.

In fact, it's a lot like Cumberbatch's "I am Khan (dun dun!)" moment. In the sole context of this movie you would have no idea why that name is significant, and neither do the other characters. They shouldn't give a fuck if his name is Khan, other than it's a damn peculiar name for such a white dude. Maybe if they had some kind of "holy shit, I learned about this guy in school" moment, but they don't. They save that for old Spock later. Which doesn't add anything to the drama at that point, anyway.

Despite its efforts to establish itself as something new, this franchise is still relying on things that hold emotional resonance and credibility solely because of how they appeared in the older movies and TV shows. Taken on its own this one is a loud, illogical mess that keeps holding out random crap and shouting "HEY, IT'S A TRIBBLE! YOU LIKE TRIBBLES, RIGHT? SET PHASERS TO STUN! PRIME DIRECTIVE! THE NEEDS OF THE MANY!" But it hasn't, itself, given you any reason to feel anything about any of that.

In fact, the only stuff that does almost work does so because the characters are so amplified that you can't miss it. Kirk was passionate and broke the prime directive a couple times, so here he's a hothead who does that non-fucking-stop while screaming at people. Spock is conflicted about his human emotions, so here he's constantly scowling like he has to take a shit the size of a birthday cake. Scotty was a bit odd, so now he's completely off the fucking wall crazy, etc.

While I'm bitching, I am completely goddamn tired of vengeance-driven psychos who happen to have a great big menacing spikey spaceship. This is at least the third flick in a row to pull that, and while shots of the Enterprise dwarfed by a bigger, pointier thing effectively establish "danger" to a summer movie audience, I'm just really bored by it. Remember how Khan beat the holy screaming shit out of a cruiser while commanding a comparatively rinky-dink scout ship? That effectively established his intellect as the primary threat. You will never see anything even half that clever in these flicks. Here Khan is supposed to be scary because he killed all those klingons and can be punched in the head a bunch and doesn't care. Whatevs.

[Thad]

In fact, it's a lot like Cumberbatch's "I am Khan (dun dun!)" moment. In the sole context of this movie you would have no idea why that name is significant, and neither do the other characters. They shouldn't give a fuck if his name is Khan, other than it's a damn peculiar name for such a white dude. Maybe if they had some kind of "holy shit, I learned about this guy in school" moment, but they don't. They save that for old Spock later. Which doesn't add anything to the drama at that point, anyway.

And of course in addition to Nimoy showing up being entirely a "Here's a thing you remember from the old series!" moment, his dialogue is also made up of references to Wrath of Khan.  When he said they defeated him "at great cost", I leaned over and whispered to my wife, "He died.  He got better."

Despite its efforts to establish itself as something new, this franchise is still relying on things that hold emotional resonance and credibility solely because of how they appeared in the older movies and TV shows. Taken on its own this one is a loud, illogical mess that keeps holding out random crap and shouting "HEY, IT'S A TRIBBLE! YOU LIKE TRIBBLES, RIGHT? SET PHASERS TO STUN! PRIME DIRECTIVE! THE NEEDS OF THE MANY!" But it hasn't, itself, given you any reason to feel anything about any of that.

Yeah.  It's a cover tune that shows some technical skill but a lack of understanding of the original.

I absolutely agree with Friday's point that anybody who says this movie is bottom-of-the-barrel is exaggerating or lacking in perspective.  It's not the worst summer blockbuster, it's not the worst Trek movie -- it's not even the worst Trek movie where [spoiler]Kirk dies[/spoiler].

But it IS the worst second Trek movie that has Khan and Carol Marcus in it and where [spoiler]halfway through the movie one of the two principals gives up the chair to the other one because he believes he's more qualified to get them through this, and then dies of radiation poisoning while holding his hand up to the glass with the other guy on the other side[/spoiler].  And also somebody shouts "KHAAAAAAAAAN!"

On its own merits, it's not bad.  It certainly suffers from the Summer Blockbuster Cliches laundry list you mentioned, but it's pretty and it's shiny and shit blows up and seriously the entire cast is just fucking great.

But if they wanted us to consider the movie on its own merits, maybe the last act could have gone five minutes without going "Hey, Wrath of Khan!  Remember that movie?  Huh?  Huh?  Do ya?"

There's a line in the MST3K of Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, where Raul Julia's watching Casablanca and somebody points out you really shouldn't be putting a much better movie in the middle of your movie.

I get why they wanted to riff on Wrath of Khan.  It's the best Star Trek movie.  I get why they brought Khan back.  But copying the major plot beats of the movie note-for-note was too much.  Like I said before, I'm pretty sure people who haven't seen Wrath of Khan will enjoy it more than people who have.

And they ARE relying too closely on the audience having an investment in stuff from the old series.  I'd say that, ironically, Wrath of Khan did better as a standalone film.  You don't have to see Space Seed to get who Khan is; who he is, what he does, and why everyone's afraid of him are all established over the course of the film.  And, likewise, you don't really have to know anything about Kirk and Spock other than their basic background for their relationship to work in the context of the film.

The dilemma between exploration and militarization is a damn good one, and fits Star Trek pretty well.  The question of a covert military organization engaging in morally-dubious operations, and of top brass seeking to provoke a war based on a completely unrelated terrorist attack, are sadly still pretty relevant metaphors for the world we're living in.  But you're right that the military/peaceful exploration ethical dilemma is one more thing these movies haven't really given us grounds to believe and relies on a general familiarity with any of the various TV series to believe Starfleet isn't already militarized as fuck.

I AM curious to see what Abrams comes up with in Star Wars.  As everybody else has noted, it really does seem to be a better fit for his skillset.

And since it actually takes place after the original films, hopefully he won't spend Episode 8 recreating Empire.

[Sharkey]

What Thad said. By no means do I think this is a bad movie, though Trek has set a pretty fucking low bar for itself. It's not even a bad dumbass summer action flick. It's not a good one, either, and not just because it lives inside of a perpetual explosion of cliches. The plot is incredibly flawed, and the moments where it actually possesses any emotional resonance were already done word for word in a much more coherent movie. This one really is just an assemblage of action setpieces whose interconnectedness has less to do with telling a good story so much as "we've got to get these five things together, so we'll just link them with insane leaps and coincidence peppered with callbacks to stuff people used to like." I don't even need to get into crazy nerd shit here (he teleported to Klingonland? Huh. Alright.") Just simple stuff like how in the fuck was that plot with the torpedoes ever committed to film without anyone saying "seriously, guys, this shit makes no goddamn sense whatsoever."

Even for its time and place, this really should have been a much better movie.

Also, incredibly creepy to mention the MST of Overdrawn at the Memory Bank when I'm actually watching it right this moment. Playing through Remember Me put me in mind of it.

[Thad]

This one really is just an assemblage of action setpieces whose interconnectedness has less to do with telling a good story so much as "we've got to get these five things together, so we'll just link them with insane leaps and coincidence peppered with callbacks to stuff people used to like."

Like I said, he's perfect for Star Wars.

[Sharkey]

Fuck you and your truth, Thad.

I've marveled at how somewhere along the way Star Trek became all about crazy lazer battles and Star Wars became all chatterboxing about politics and diplomacy, but at long last we've finally united the two. Fuckoff stupid plots and phaser battles for all!

[Cthulhu-chan]

yaaaaaay...?

[Mongrel]

I miss TNG.

[Thad]

Well, y'know, Spielberg and Lucas ARE the first two guys I think of when I think of people who write setpieces first and fill in the story around them.

If I wanted to be less charitable I could say Michael Bay, too, but I think Abrams is closer to Lucas and Spielberg than to Bay.  His movies are smarter than Bay's, at any rate, though that's about as low as you can set the bar.  (Bay, on the other hand, is at least refreshingly honest about what he is; the closest he's ever come to being pretentious was Pearl Harbor.  And Pearl Harbor wasn't bad because it was pretentious, it was bad because it was the same kind of hackneyed, lowest-common-denominator pabulum as everything else Bay's ever done.)

Granted, it's been awhile since Spielberg made a good movie, and longer still since Lucas did.  And I never got around to watching Lost so all I really know Abrams from is the Trek movies and the things I've HEARD about Lost.  (Which make it sound a lot like X-Files -- an initially very promising, intelligent, and captivating show that made it clear, over time, that the writers were just making shit up as they went along and there was never any grand plan, which still managed to put out pretty great episodes for the duration of its run but set into diminishing returns years before the end.  Is that about right?)

...oh hey, there's a new X-Files comic out this week, isn't there?