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Author Topic: MTG  (Read 153453 times)

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Büge

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Re: MTG
« Reply #360 on: May 11, 2010, 08:26:59 AM »

Is EDH dead already? Every deck I see posted online is some kind of tutor-heavy speed-killer. I thought the format was developed as a way to make slow, fun decks that were made for casual games, not another Type 2.
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Zaratustra

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Re: MTG
« Reply #361 on: May 11, 2010, 08:37:11 AM »

Tourneyfags ruin everything.

Mongrel

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Re: MTG
« Reply #362 on: May 11, 2010, 08:46:30 AM »

If EDH wasn't dead before, it sure as hell is after Rise of the Eldrazi. or at least took a pasting as a fun format.

Our local group (which is very good people, including the 2008 national champion.) to a man immediately put all the big eldrazi into their EDH decks and then on the very same night took them all out, realizing just how badly they ruined the format.

Not in the sense that they broke anything - someone playing an Eldrazi becomes an INSTANT target - but because they're just no fun at all.

As if that wasn't enough, the huge number of big powerful cards clearly intended for EDH (Cast through Time, Baneful Omen, etc. etc.) are also just stupid.

When I heard that Tom LaPille (a major MTG designer and noted fan of EDH) was casually calling this "The EDH Set", I knew it was going to be bad.

EDH is the kind of format that can only suffer for having cards specifically designed for it.


Oh hey:

In other "MTG is goddamn lunatic retardedness" news, we now regularly have Type II/Standard cards that are breaking the $40-50 mark and one that just dinged $70 this past weekend (with it looking to go up further).

The funny thing is that is not the actual cost that bugs me so much as it is the Social Darwinist crowd continuing the same old refrain that's always been bounced about over expensive cards that hey, "you gotta pay to play, son."
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MadMAxJr

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Re: MTG
« Reply #363 on: May 11, 2010, 09:03:16 AM »

The thing is, people will pay those prices.  If they're paying it to their local hobby games store, I'm okay with it.  If they're buying it online, that's where I start to get frowny.
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Zaratustra

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Re: MTG
« Reply #364 on: May 11, 2010, 09:52:48 AM »

The "mythic rares aren't going to be NEEDED for a competitive deck" spiel lasted what, one set?

Mongrel

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Re: MTG
« Reply #365 on: May 11, 2010, 10:16:24 AM »

As far as supporting local stores go, WotC has a number of policies in place to support brick-and-mortar stores as best as they're able. Not that that has stopped the recent explosion of online retailers, but short of active subsidies of a retail sector that's not exactly known for sound management, there's not much more they can do.

I mean, I have no problem with the economic arguments or anything else like that. I understand the basics of supply and demand. The price is what it is and I've paid such prices myself on any number of occasions. And as much as I don't like it, I fully understand why Wizards has an official policy that quite literally pretends the secondary market doesn't exist.

What I think is silly about the whole thing is for everyone with any stake in a healthy game to ignore a few things:

1) MTG is a game targeted - at least at entry level - to an age group not known for having an unlimited income. trying to decide what cards "should" be worth may be an idiot's game, but there does come a price point beyond which the game suffers massive depopulation. Type 1/Vintage has already suffered this fate. The player base was demolished and while the cards maintain their last known values, those values are absolutely flat and have been for years.

2) When considering the problem from the standpoint of economics, or even just basic common sense, there is no problem with prices. The market will bear what it bears. If not, it will self-correct, etc. However, this ignores the huge emotional component to the game. If the game begins to be "seen" by a substantial portion of the player base as "too expensive" (an incredibly subjective term), you will see that market correction. Unfortunately, for this to occur, it will have been preceded by a player exodus not seen since Darksteel's Affinity fiasco.

3) Type II/Standard was created to address issues with acquiring cards for competitive play. it's the whole reason the format even exists. It was the reason that Magic became the first collectible game to ever introduce set rotation or segregated formats. Yet we are coming perilously close to a point of "unavailable at any price.". Maybe leaving card prices to naturally balance themselves is fine in most formats, but there has to be at least one format left as an affordable hook for new players.

I don't sit here and harrumph about these things based on anecdotal or personal dislikes. There are a number of writers I follow who carefully gather large amounts of raw data that show that this is damaging the game's long-term viability. In spite of record numbers of new players, Tournament attendance is dropping (or is static at best). The greatest fear here is that these new players will have soured on a game whose cost to play has risen in real average terms by almost 50% over the past two years.

One other interesting point: Since the higher prices are all attached to Mythic rares, one of the facts  that keeps getting touted as a benefit of the new higher prices is the decreased cost of regular rares. It's now a fact that a regular rare will rarely ever break $5 and for the most part is worth only $1 or less. However, a number of people have crunched the numbers and calculated that it now costs around 20% more to get a "playset of everything" in sets of equal sizes than it did prior to the existence of Mythic rares.

This may seem like more complaining again about natural market forces (which is dumb). But the real issue is trading. It's now almost impossible for a scrubby (or even competent) player to trade cards up, since the values of cards are separated by such a giant gulf and the middle is occupied by some kind of economic no-man's land. This used to be a common complaint about older formats, but now it's happening with current in print sets.

Make no mistake. From WotC's point of view attendance is up and they are selling product at volumes they've never before reached. The current system represents an unparalleled success for them. Nor do I think the game will die off, even if it takes a hit. However, I DO think this is extremely damaging to the market in the long run.

Over the past seventeen years, I've seen the rise in the cost to play MTG consistently exceed inflation. Like any good company, WotC is searching for their saturation point. However, the tradeoff has been that players now play the game for shorter and shorter periods (on average) than they did many years ago. Most new players last for maybe two years at most, when for a long while it was 3-4. I don't know that this will mean DOOM AND GLOOM. But there exists a theoretical tipping point that I'd really prefer WotC didn't flirt with quite so badly.

:tldr: WotC is stoopid. Nothing new there.
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Mongrel

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Re: MTG
« Reply #366 on: May 11, 2010, 10:23:42 AM »

The "mythic rares aren't going to be NEEDED for a competitive deck" spiel lasted what, one set?

I didn't believe that line for even one set. Not that I thought that WotC was necessarily lying, but that it was massively unsustainable to have fifteen dead "timmy only" cards every set. That would have been ridiculous. It was like promising that all the uncommons or commons would have been bad.

Starr even pointed out that they really painted themselves in a corner on this one. By definition, Planeswalkers are only printed at Mythic rare, but they lead MTG's branding efforts and from a pure mechanical standpoint, they're a relatively new card type that only comes out rarely. By definition they are big splashy cards - it was a sheer impossibility for them to all be bad or to only have very narrow uses.

Oh and the next block is almost a lock to have a colourless planeswalker.
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Büge

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Re: MTG
« Reply #367 on: May 11, 2010, 10:40:34 AM »

:tldr: WotC is stoopid. Nothing new there.

Future Sight was more on the nose than anyone could have guessed.
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Kashan

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Re: MTG
« Reply #368 on: May 11, 2010, 07:26:29 PM »

I actually think it's kind of clever. The only epic cards that have sustained high costs are blue or white control cards, and people fucking hate playing against blue white control.
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Mongrel

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Re: MTG
« Reply #369 on: May 12, 2010, 02:59:33 AM »

Well, they gutted the shit out of classic control in Type II and people had been whining about that since Lorwyn Block rotated (or, in some cases, since Counterspell rotated).

Then they printed Jace.
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Mongrel

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Re: MTG
« Reply #370 on: May 19, 2010, 05:00:56 AM »

At least one of you ought to find this funny.



Archenemy looks terrible to play (boringly-designed cards and a format that can only lead to tears? Don't Sign me up!), but the cards are very pretty.
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jsnlxndrlv

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Re: MTG
« Reply #371 on: May 19, 2010, 07:08:10 AM »

I kept planning to buy Planechase, and suddenly they're doing this. Now I doubt I'll buy either!

The "mythic rares aren't going to be NEEDED for a competitive deck" spiel lasted what, one set?

I didn't believe that line for even one set. Not that I thought that WotC was necessarily lying, but that it was massively unsustainable to have fifteen dead "timmy only" cards every set. That would have been ridiculous. It was like promising that all the uncommons or commons would have been bad.

This was never the line, though. When Rosewater initially talked about mythic rares, he made three assertions:
1. Mythic rares should feel special;
2. They won't just be a list of the best cards in the set, and
3. They won't be utility cards like removal or dual lands.

While they've mostly failed on the first count, I think they've mostly succeeded on the second one—with the exception of Worldwake, because Jace's power and desirability completely obviates discussion of the rest of the set. But they never claimed there wouldn't be powerful, tournament-level cards in mythic rare, nor did they even claim that there would never be mythic rares certain decks would need as a four-of.
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Zaratustra

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Re: MTG
« Reply #372 on: May 19, 2010, 07:11:34 AM »

well then I was under the wrongful assumption wizards had scruples

Mongrel

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Re: MTG
« Reply #373 on: May 19, 2010, 07:22:21 AM »

I quite like Planechase. With a large group of players playing EDH, that is. I find the added ridiculous randomness helps to keep the format "honest", if you get my meaning.

Archenemy just looks like crap. Poorly thought-out crap that'll lead to nasty arguments.
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Büge

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Re: MTG
« Reply #374 on: May 19, 2010, 08:06:17 AM »

Archenemy? What the f...?

Quote
one google search later

Ohhhhhh. It's a raid deck.
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Envy

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Re: MTG
« Reply #375 on: May 28, 2010, 12:29:52 AM »

So I've got a choice of running Vengevine Naya or Mono Black control. Both were pretty ok against jund though I think Naya might be the better route. Opinions?
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Mongrel

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Re: MTG
« Reply #376 on: May 28, 2010, 03:15:41 AM »

GP DC says Vengevine Naya is the way to go.

Though, I'll warn you that the most recent tourney results show that nothing has really changed in standard. The best two decks BY FAR are still Jund (best versions are the 'poopypants Jund' running 2-3 Sarkhan the Locos... yes Sarkhan) and Blue-White control (plainswalker control. Some run a red splash for Ajani V and a handful of other red cards). 

Mono Black isn't even charting, be it control or Vampires. Red Deck wins is a solid tier 2 but is definitely inferior to the top decks.
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Envy

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Re: MTG
« Reply #377 on: May 28, 2010, 09:15:28 AM »

I cannot wait till jund is out of the format. Vengevine Naya takes me a bit of thinking power at least.
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Mongrel

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Re: MTG
« Reply #378 on: May 29, 2010, 08:49:36 AM »

Oh it's official now. I want absolutely nothing to do with Archenemy. It's like a Magic product created by Stan Lee.

Exhibit A
Exhibit B
Exhibit C
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Envy

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Re: MTG
« Reply #379 on: May 29, 2010, 09:17:40 AM »

#1 - What's the dumbest idea you ever had?
#2 - 15/15 for ?
#1 - Make it dumber
#2 - Give it protection from removal and counter?
#1 - DUMBER!
#2 - Add Timewalk?
#1 - DAMN IT MAN, I SAID DUMB!! DUMB !!!
#2 - It destroys everything when it attacks.... And wait, I have a friend who plays mill decks... I want to beat him too.
#1 - Excellent!
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