Topic: Bitch about a Metroidvania you are playing (Read 17848 times)

Kayin · « **Reply #60 on:** August 24, 2008, 09:44:46 PM »

Quote from: Catloaf on August 24, 2008, 09:14:28 PM

Also based on Newbie's post, I think I would like to see a metroidvania game with a lot of completely optional areas /bosses/powerups placed all throughout the game. You listening, Kayin!?!

MAAAAAAYBE

jsnlxndrlv · « **Reply #61 on:** August 25, 2008, 08:27:52 AM »

Yeah, for all my invective, a good metroidvania's still a good game--I just don't agree with the implication that the formula immediately makes an average game design better. There are ways to take the basic metroidvania design as it's usually used and improve upon it:

Make better keys. Super Metroid's the best example of this, but Link's Awakening did it pretty well, too. The navigational aids you acquire are useful immediately for tasks other than navigating.

Make better locks. By which I mean, they shouldn't look like locks until you get the key to them. Super Metroid's shining example is the Space Jump boots: once you get them, every area with an open ceiling transforms into a new avenue for exploration.

Make some of the locks unnecessary. The only game to do this that I'm aware of is Metroid Fusion. The basic idea is that the gameworld consists of interconnected, forking paths; some of the forks have locks on them. Of those locks, around half should lead to areas that are already accessible from other, unlocked forks. This makes the acquisition of keys more interesting: not only do you have access to new areas, but getting through old areas is now potentially easier.

Brentai · « **Reply #62 on:** August 25, 2008, 09:50:59 AM »

Quote from: Newbie sucks on August 25, 2008, 08:27:52 AM

Make some of the locks unnecessary. The only game to do this that I'm aware of is Metroid Fusion.

...widely regarded as the weakest in the 2D series.

I agree with most of that post, but not the last bit. Using your shiny new key to get to where you've already been is frustrating. Super Metroid (widely regarded as the strongest) did pretty much the opposite; every time you got a key, you already knew of several places you could use it, and every one lead you to someplace that was new, or either important or useful.

Example of what Super Metroid did right, via example of what Super Metroid did wrong: That glass tube. The goddam glass tube that you have to Super Bomb to proceed farther into the game. It shows no signs of taking damage from any other weapon, so there's no indication that it's anything other than a particularly pretty room - and since Super Bomb is one of the last weapons you acquire, even if you did attack the tube with other weapons, by the time you get Super Bomb you're probably convinced that the tube can't be broken (I mean if Super Missiles didn't work...).

But the real reason that glass tube was a problem (okay, probably just for me, but bear with me) is because it's the only time in the game that happens. It's really the only time in the entire game that it's not very very clear that "you can use x item right here". Sometimes it's flat out marked with a symbol, and other times it's obvious (space jump, open ceiling), but other than that fucking glass tube there's no guesswork about it at all. That's why Super Metroid is an "exploration" game and not a "puzzle" game, and why most people think it's "fun" instead of "frustrating".

(Here is where I resist the urge to dredge up SotN as a negative example. Fuck you, you know it is.)

LaserBeing · « **Reply #63 on:** August 25, 2008, 10:03:36 AM »

Quote from: Brentai on August 25, 2008, 09:50:59 AM

...widely regarded as the weakest in the 2D series.

A bit unfairly, in my opinion.

I agree that it sucks to get a fancy new thing and try it out only to end up somewhere you've already been, but I think what Newbie is getting at is that you could make backtracking less egregious if you can open up shortcuts through old, difficult areas. Of course if your keys are designed properly, the extra power by itself should make things easier (space jump + screw attack = cruise control)

Brentai · « **Reply #64 on:** August 25, 2008, 10:08:52 AM »

A note I saw a couple times in this thread is that Super Metroid mad exploration pretty smooth, even though it didn't have portals or a central hub. Or links to old areas.

I think you just hit on why, though. All the powerups in that game did double duty - not only opening up new areas, but making old areas a breeze to run through.

TA · « **Reply #65 on:** August 25, 2008, 11:04:28 AM »

Quote from: Brentai on August 25, 2008, 09:50:59 AM

...widely regarded as the weakest in the 2D series.

... by who?

Fusion wasn't amazing, but come on, this is a series with Metroid 2 in it.

Rosencrantz · « **Reply #66 on:** August 25, 2008, 11:09:11 AM »

Quote from: TA on August 25, 2008, 11:04:28 AM

Quote from: Brentai on August 25, 2008, 09:50:59 AM
...widely regarded as the weakest in the 2D series.

... by who?

Fusion wasn't amazing, but come on, this is a series with Metroid 2 in it.

I was about to say the same thing. Fusion isn't perfect and may not live up to Super Metroid standards, but it's a very solid platformer and I had a lot of fun with it.

Kazz · « **Reply #67 on:** August 25, 2008, 11:13:39 AM »

Metacritic search for "Metroid"

Looks like the one widely regarded as the weakest is the original.

Rosencrantz · « **Reply #68 on:** August 25, 2008, 11:15:52 AM »

Quote from: Kazz on August 25, 2008, 11:13:39 AM

Metacritic search for "Metroid"

Looks like the one widely regarded as the weakest is the original.

That's because nobody wants to pay for a GBA version of the original game when it comes for free with Metroid: Zero Mission as an unlockable.

Kazz · « **Reply #69 on:** August 25, 2008, 11:18:58 AM »

Still, you can't go through and say that the original Metroid is great just because it was great when it came out. Some titles stand the test of time, and some are the best around until someone improves on the genre.

I'm speaking as someone who loves the original Metroid and hates everything that came after.

LaserBeing · « **Reply #70 on:** August 25, 2008, 12:27:46 PM »

Quote from: Kazz on August 25, 2008, 11:18:58 AM

I'm speaking as someone who loves the original Metroid and hates everything that came after.

See I don't understand how it's possible to love Metroid 1 and not Super Metroid. But that Cortex Command guy says the same thing, so obviously Metroid 1 has something that none of the others do.

So... what is it? Is it nostalgia? Black backgrounds? The ability to kick ass in just a bailey?

Kazz · « **Reply #71 on:** August 25, 2008, 12:48:39 PM »

I dunno. I tried to like Super Metroid, but going down a path and getting lost or stuck is unsatisfyingly frustrating. Enough that I usually find something else to play for a bit... and then a bit longer...

James Edward Smith · « **Reply #72 on:** August 25, 2008, 12:52:56 PM »

Quote from: Kazz on August 25, 2008, 12:48:39 PM

I dunno. I tried to like Super Metroid, but going down a path and getting lost or stuck is unsatisfyingly frustrating. Enough that I usually find something else to play for a bit... and then a bit longer...

Is this just trolling? 'cause seriously dude, that happens just as much in Metroid 1 and it's WAY more unsatisfying when it happens. Unless you are actually just talking about Zero Mission, there is no way I can take this post seriously.

Kazz · « **Reply #73 on:** August 25, 2008, 01:04:55 PM »

Uh, no... I mean, I liked the original Metroid back when I played it when I was like 8 and I would play NES games for hours on end no matter how tedious it was. I don't know if I'd enjoy it now.

I like modern Castlevania because I like it when I have a reason to kill monsters aside from the fact that they're dangerous. Also I just like the aesthetic better.

Kayin · « **Reply #74 on:** August 25, 2008, 01:58:22 PM »

Metroid has aged terrible, but you still have to consider how good it was when it came out (very) as opposed to Fusion that wasn't very good when it came out. But was it worse than Metroid 2? Probably not. But it still sucked.

Brentai is doing all my arguing for me. I pretty much flat out agree. Only I'll get powerbombs before I even get high jump boots, but I'm a motherfucker. :3

Bongo Bill · « **Reply #75 on:** August 25, 2008, 01:59:11 PM »

Fusion was a blast okay.

Quote from: Brentai on August 25, 2008, 09:50:59 AM

That glass tube. The goddam glass tube that you have to Super Bomb to proceed farther into the game. It shows no signs of taking damage from any other weapon, so there's no indication that it's anything other than a particularly pretty room - and since Super Bomb is one of the last weapons you acquire, even if you did attack the tube with other weapons, by the time you get Super Bomb you're probably convinced that the tube can't be broken (I mean if Super Missiles didn't work...).

The only reason that I knew that you could do that was because Metroid Prime used the exact same gimmick, only it told you that it would work before you tried it.

Kayin · « **Reply #76 on:** August 25, 2008, 02:32:25 PM »

Oh to go on about Metroid. What metroid has that no other one has is true non linearity and exploration. It's really like splunking or something. You have NO indication of what to do or where to go. You just gotta figure all that shit out. Kill metroids? HOW THE FUCK DO I DO THAT.

It's like Tower of Druaga only more bearable I guess.

Royal☭ · « **Reply #77 on:** August 25, 2008, 02:45:15 PM »

The only reason I knew about the bomb thing was because the little demo mode if you didn't start the game showed it happening.

Brentai · « **Reply #78 on:** August 25, 2008, 02:54:12 PM »

...oh.

Quote from: Kayin on August 25, 2008, 02:32:25 PM

You have NO indication of what to do or where to go. You just gotta figure all that shit out. Kill metroids? HOW THE FUCK DO I DO THAT.

Er, that's the thing about the original that nobody liked. Like I keep saying, Super Metroid works because there is an indication of what to do. Although some of it is non-obvious, like "how to kill Metroids" is just something that you're assumed to have known before you played. And sometimes you have to watch the attract mode.

Kayin · « **Reply #79 on:** August 25, 2008, 03:01:27 PM »

Yes, but I think thats what people like Kazz miss. Granted they're mutants, but I think thats the reason.

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Author Topic: Bitch about a Metroidvania you are playing (Read 17848 times)