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[Bongo Bill]

You have to do it late enough that you can be sure it won't cause problems down the road, which means you have to have the design finished enough to be sure of that, even if only in a vague and ad-hoc sense.

[Brentai]

Honestly it really just comes down to how well you've encapsulated your stuff.  Proper OOP and to a certain extent proper procedural programming demands that only the interface of an object or module be relevant to any other piece of the program, so in theory you should never have one optimization "tear down the entire scaffolding of the program" as you claim Cyan has (which he probably did, I'm not entirely following this conversation).  Meaning basically that you don't really need to have the entire skeleton of the program in place before you can start tweaking a module, as long as the damn thing still works properly at the end of the day.

ON AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT NOTE: Has anybody tried fucking with Unreal Engine 3 yet?

[Bongo Bill]

Huh, this is interesting. So I was thinking I'd make my next project in XNA, right? I'm loath to leave Mac and Linux users out in the cold, but XNA is a rather sweet library that I'd like to use.

But it turns out that, at least in my case, I don't have to make that choice. You see, Silverlight has ports to several platforms (well, to OSX, and Linux has Moonlight which seems to work well enough). And some guy has implemented the 2D portions of XNA for Silverlight. Which means that porting to Silverlight would be a snap, if there turns out to be demand for such a thing.

[Catloaf]

Reviving this old Thread.

Anyway, I feel awful about having to ask, but I just don't know where else to go for advice on this stuff.

I'm trying to set up some form of C (I'd prefer C#, but I really don't give a damn) to do some stuff with OpenGL, and I don't know what to do.  I've looked at the their site over and over and tried google, but I can't find shit.  I'd use directX if I could, as that has a quick little installer that does it all for you and I'll be using that if I ever get down to work on messing around with XNA as I've been planning to for months now, but I'm in a graphics programming class that is specifically using OpenGL, so I need to use it some how.  I used to have OpenGL set up and working with my Java set up in the form of JOGL, but I can't find my files and such for that, and I would prefer to start learning C sooner than later, especially since all the code in my textbook is in it.

So, where do I go, or straight up what do I do?  I'm running Windows7 64-bit on this computer.

[MadMAxJr]

Can't really help you with that one.

Anybody here with Android experience?  I'm planning a project out assuming I can retrain myself in Java syntax.

[Brentai]

NeHe used to have tutorials for setting up OGL on several compilers.  Don't know if that site's still around or if the information on it is still relevant, though.

[sei]

Can't really help you with that one.

Anybody here with Android experience?  I'm planning a project out assuming I can retrain myself in Java syntax.

System.out.recurrent.unnecessary.object.reference();

[Brentai]

NeHe used to have tutorials for setting up OGL on several compilers.  Don't know if that site's still around or if the information on it is still relevant, though.

UPDATE: A lot of them are strangely missing.  Anyway, I'm assuming you're on Windows since you're talking about DX/XNA, so look for some info on setting it up with Bloodshed Dev-C++ - that's what I used for learning OGL, and once you got past the library/header/directory trickiness it was pretty smooth sailing.  You'll note that it hasn't been updated in 2-3 years though.

[JDigital]

Microsoft is handing out free downloads of Visual Studio these days. I haven't used it and Dev C++ enough to compare the two, though.

[Brentai]

What's the big popular game programming IDE/compiler nowadays, anyway?  Is it Eclipse?

Alternately I'd just settle for using whatever they used for Aquaria.  Say what you will about the actual game but the engine is more solid than most mainstream titles.

[Brentai]

Anyway, I'm assuming you're on Windows since you're talking about DX/XNA, so look for some info on setting it up with Bloodshed Dev-C++ - that's what I used for learning OGL, and once you got past the library/header/directory trickiness it was pretty smooth sailing.  You'll note that it hasn't been updated in 2-3 years though.

Spiritual successor.

I'm going with Eclipse next since it seems to be the next most salable thing to know after Visual Whatthehellisevengoingonhere, but if that doesn't work out I'll see what's going on over in that corner.

[Aintaer]

You have several options. You can either use Eclipse CDT with GNU toolchains (compilers, assembler, linker, etc) or you can go MSVC.

If you are going to use DirectX or XNA, you pretty much have no choice but to use MSVC. The problem is not with the compiler, but rather with the debugger. The debugger pretty much cannot be used outside of MSVS.

If you are going to use OpenGL, I highly suggest you use some high level libraries instead of low level GL coding unless you 1. really know what you doing take off every gl* function or 2. really want to learn low level GL. For OpenGL coding, Eclipse is probably the way to go what with cross-platform blah blah.

So to do this, get Eclipse CDT, get the MinGW suite. There's plenty of help available, but once you get the tools you need, you'll need to set up the GNU toolchain in Eclipse, then make a C project, and off you go into the wonderful world of OpenGL C API.

In essence, the first step, that of turning your machine into a development machine, requires the most setup time. From then on things get easier.

[Brentai]

I already know DX and OGL to a reasonably overindulgent level, but I wasn't aware of the debugger issue with DX.  I was kind of hoping to go for cross-compatibility, but if that sort of bullshit gets in the way I guess I'll just crawl back and bend over.  I really don't want to go OGL full-hog because I've got some issues with the way it's managed.

I'd try XNA again but I really doubt I'd get it through the peer review process with the shit I'm intending to pull.  So, nah.

But yeah, setting up Eclipse now, which is a little harrowing.  I'm not the kind of person who enjoys software that comes in distributions.

[Catloaf]

Now I'm curious, what are you trying to pull?

As a side note, my last request is now basically moot as I'm most likely going to drop the class due to emotional problems--I can't help but get depressed around the teacher as I feel guilty because I feel I didn't deserve the grades I received in previous classes, and I can't fucking think/work when I'm depressed.  I'm going to take the class sometime, but now is not that time, I feel I just need some more experience with programming.

And so I think I'm gonna try out XNA on my own time to get that experience.

[Brentai]

So far Code::Blocks (+MinGW) is winning my bid for next IDE to seriously try to use.  You can tell it was built for people who have spent a lot of time in Visual Studio.  I haven't dug in far enough to find its unique idiosyncrasies, but at least I haven't been assaulted with them before managing to even compile a test app.

Also T CATLOAF: Nothing special, just some probable extreme issues with content, and Jesus Christ get the fuck over yourself.  Nobody gets good grades by accident.  I can guarantee you are better than 66% of the mouthbreathing fucks in the field right now, just on the basis that you give half a flaming fuck about your skills.  So man up and get it done, son.

[Brentai]

I'm interested, I'm just too busy writing rushed and undocumented code.  Because I was told to write undocumented code.  And rushed.

Also, I think suddenly changing specs are at least as much to blame as deadlines for everything that's wrong with professional programming.

Read through this thread on a whim today.

25-year-old me was very, very smart.

[MadMAxJr]

Read through this thread.  Vietnam style flashbacks to the most horrible job ever.

[Büge]

Hi Max!