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Game Boards => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: jsnlxndrlv on December 04, 2009, 10:24:00 PM

Title: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 04, 2009, 10:24:00 PM
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r40/jsnlxndrlv/Info1.png)

Exquisite Knorpse 2 (Version 1.8, because of MAJOR CHANGES) is now available at this Sendspace location (http://www.sendspace.com/file/xc9zv8) (and at BongoBill's mirror (http://frontal-lobe.net/Worst%20Forums%20Ever%20-%20Exquisite%20Knorpse%202.knytt.bin) and Brentai's Mirror (http://hundredcoins.org/brentai/files/Worst Forums Ever - Exquisite Knorpse 2.knytt.bin), although I can't guarantee that both of them have the most current version of the level). To play the level, open up Knytt Stories, click Install Level, and either drag the .knytt.bin file onto the window or open it using the Browse dialog.

Much obliged to everybody for testing. Version 1.6 reintegrates a couple rooms around and above the castle, restores LaserBeing's original ghostly path, and has other minor fixes. Version 1.7 takes an arbitrary invisi-ceiling in one of my areas and removes it in favor of a new path into LaserBeing's area; 1.8 makes part of LaserBeing's mini-section a little easier and introduces major changes to Friday's mini-section as a result of the endless bitching she's received.

Quote
FAQ
Progressive clues to getting through some of the level's trouble spots.

Kazz's area:
1. [spoiler]Yes, it's a really long walk with not very much to see.[/spoiler]
2. [spoiler]Finding a replacement Climbing upgrade should not be too difficult. Once you've gotten it, you need to work your way back out into the open, find a way further up, and then to the left.[/spoiler]
3. [spoiler]Specifically, there's a room where Kazz claims responsibility for his area. From that room, you need to move up one screen.[/spoiler]
4. [spoiler]Can't find the room Kazz signed? Get back to the entrance of the grid-walled maze, and use climbing to get to the platform on the right side. Kazz's signature is just beyond.[/spoiler]
5. [spoiler]Specifically, you need to stand on the letter 'O' on the top row and jump up, climbing on the wall to the left. From there you can follow the red road either left or upward, but there's a challenging jump to the left. Going up is easier.[/spoiler]

After the mine:
1. [spoiler]You need to go down the next hole. Press "up" to swim downward; wiggle around until you fall out.[/spoiler]

Teleporters:
1. [spoiler]There are five switches at the end of hallways that need to be activated. The sign at the top of each teleporter should indicate which switch it leads to.[/spoiler]
2. [spoiler]Don't forget that teleporters save your game when you use them![/spoiler]
3. [spoiler]The correct order: starting from the entrance, go as far to the right without teleporting as possible. Flip the switch. Go back left until you reach a teleporter; take it. Then go as far to the right as you can again. Repeat.[/spoiler]
4. [spoiler]By following that basic structure, you should be able to get the first three switches fairly easily. When it's time to flip the fourth, find the updraft within the UFO and go left from the upper room. Bypass the next teleporter you see and continue to the leftmost teleporter in the dead end; take that one.[/spoiler]

Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 05, 2009, 12:47:31 AM
I

LOVE

THE

WELL
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 05, 2009, 12:53:06 AM
It's kind of a hard game.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 05, 2009, 12:54:42 AM
i take it back.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 05, 2009, 01:13:16 AM
(http://i45.tinypic.com/jiceis.png)

3 tiles under the orange guy are messed up

I thought this was okay until I got the double jump and due to control-related grievances couldn't get any further. I guess I am bad, but damn Juni moves fast.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 05, 2009, 01:30:10 AM
Thanks for the catch. I actually noticed those before, but never got around to fixing them in the torrent of bug reports that have been coming in. Incidentally, you can hold A to slow your movement.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 05, 2009, 01:33:03 AM
I know, but it's awkward. I wish I could edit the controls.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 05, 2009, 01:45:54 AM
step 1.) any gamepad in the world
step 2.) joy2key
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 05, 2009, 04:21:20 AM
Original release beaten. In one sitting.

Time spent on game total: 4 1/2 hours
Time spent of bullshit lava jump: 15 minutes
Time spent on final boss: 1 hour, 10 minutes. Granted, some of that was because I was tired.

Outstanding overall. Last Boss soured my mood, but Brentai did an excellent job with everything else. Nerf the fuck out of that guy, though. No stacking fireballs.

Everyone did a great job. My areas look bland in comparison to you guys. I'm amazed at the level of detail. Lots of bugs and wallswim shit, though, but I guess Newbie is already up to like 1.4, so those are getting fixed.

Infinite props to Lee-Ham and the rest of the artists. Also infinite props to Newbie for hosting. A++ all around.

Oh. Remove the bullshit lava jump. Make it three wide. For serious. It's not fun and completely drags down an otherwise excellent area.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on December 05, 2009, 05:05:48 AM
At least there was a save point right in front of that one, unlike some nasty jumps I could name. Lookin' at you, Doom.

Quote from: Doom
(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/5762/conancomplaint.jpg)

I got as far as Friday's area, but was too tired to have the coordination to go any further. Have been digging it extremely. The art in particular is just splendid.

Incidentally, as of the time of this posting, I've mirrored the latest version (1.4?) here (http://frontal-lobe.net/Worst_Forums_Ever_-_Exquisite_Knorpse_2.knytt.bin).
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 05, 2009, 10:11:44 AM
Release 1.5 forthcoming, featuring (1) narrower lava stream under the well, and (2) fewer fireballs at the end. Plus any extra bugs you guys find.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 05, 2009, 10:47:26 AM
Quote
At least there was a save point right in front of that one, unlike some nasty jumps I could name. Lookin' at you, Doom.

???

Where is this jump? I have no memory of frustrating parts (not counting my own stuff, which I'm sure will frustrate others) besides the two I named. But I may have just gotten lucky.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 05, 2009, 10:52:37 AM
Okay. The lava jump under the Well? Bongo beat it in, like, barely a minute and a half. All the same, it's causing enough frustration that it's going down to three. There is also now another "save point" in LaserBeing's area. That's the jump BongoBill's complaining of. I have also removed five fire shooters from the latter half of Brentai's final area. Also, the three different endings are cued a little better; currently, I'd only expect people to be able to find two, since they're basically in the same spot. Once I clean up this last bug, I'll start uploading 1.5.

You really can't get any idea of the layout from the map at the end of the game. I've uploaded as much of it as I could fit onto a 1024x768 image (http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r40/jsnlxndrlv/attribution-1.png).
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 05, 2009, 11:01:23 AM
Quote
Bongo beat it in, like, barely a minute and a half.

 ::(:

Also, I don't see any area done by Doom in the credits. I think Bongo is mistaken. Still don't know what jump he's referring to.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 05, 2009, 11:04:54 AM
Yeah, he was mistaken. The jump he was bothered by was in the cave where you find the eye and have to use the stalactites with spikes on the bottom.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 05, 2009, 11:22:06 AM
Ah, OK. Yeah, died a few times there.

Anyway, I'm giving out Free Blowjobs to anyone who worked on this, just sayin'.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: sei on December 05, 2009, 11:25:26 AM
Anyway, I'm giving out Free Blowjobs to anyone who worked on this, just sayin'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZItsbLzc73s
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 05, 2009, 11:45:06 AM
Wait. You use your upper teeth? Wow, I've been doing it wrong!
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 05, 2009, 02:45:08 PM
Anyway, I was meaning to give you guys some feedback after I figured out who did what, so here.

Do yourself a favor and don't look at this if you're ever planning to play, or watch someone LP EK2. I've headed each area with the creator's name so they can skip the others so as not to spoil.

MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD

Newbie:
[spoiler]I dug your areas. Opening palace and was very well done as a good intro to the game, and Exposition central was just great. Your Final area was very well balanced. I enjoyed the challenge and classic music. I went :D when I saw you reused Death. Especially liked your boss. Overall, I'd say you had some of the most refined, well balanced areas.[/spoiler]

Bongo:
[spoiler]Your areas were also well done. Spike mines were a little bit cheap, but manageable, and other than that a good mix of difficulty. Your moon/plane area I liked immensely. Interesting design with the part where you have to give up either climb or double jump. The music for the moon was A+. Your final area was a bit simple, but that's alright. Overall, very good work.[/spoiler]

Kazz:
[spoiler]I liked your area, actually. The bits where you actually put in effort were fun, well balanced, and challenging. I'm sure the long walk will do what it was meant to do: troll Frocto. Way better than your previous stuff.[/spoiler]

Kayin:
[spoiler]You made a tower! It was pretty cool looking, actually. I was half expecting Tacgnol. Your "final area" made me laugh like an idiot. Not sure if you told Brentai to do that or he just did it on his own. Either way.[/spoiler]

Niku:
[spoiler]NORFAAAAAAAAAIRRRR!!! But seriously, I am sad you didn't do more. What little there was was hard but fun.[/spoiler]

Zara:
[spoiler]I actually really enjoyed your rooms and the spaceship theme. The problem was confusing design. The combination of the "elevators" and samey looking rooms made it hard to keep track of where you were and where you needed to go. The rooms themselves were well balanced and fun, though. Your final area was basically everything good about your first with none of the bad, so A+ there.[/spoiler]

Zach:
[spoiler]HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU WIN AT EVERYTHING FOREVER. Except your lavafalls jump. When the "music" started looping I started crying from laughter. Your final area was weird and confusing, which I guess was the point![/spoiler]

Kayma:
[spoiler]Shit, you did Hologram, right? Just like you designer room said, it was short but sweet. Also I think you did lighthouse? Good stuff. DID YOU DESIGN THAT MAZE TO NOWHERE IF SO I APPLAUD YOU AND LOOK FORWARD TO FROCTO CURSING YOUR NAME[/spoiler]

Lee-Ham:
[spoiler]I feel I must separate my feedback into two parts.
Art: Holy jesus shit. Can you win any harder? Buried treasure was the best use of detector ever, period. But is it art?
Design: Pretty good! A little bit cheap in some areas, but overall not too bad. Climbing back out of everything was great. Your final area was great except for RANDOM PLANT THAT KILLS YOU OVER AND OVER right at the start.[/spoiler]

Brentai:
[spoiler]Wow. Uh. Wow. I don't quite know how to say this, but: You did an amazing job. Mood, theme, story, everything. Your first area was great. Only nitpick I have is those two height jumps between water as you flee the temple: Pixel perfection was required there and it got quite frustrating. QUICKTIME EVENT IS BEST EVENT. Your second area was even better than the first. The Tests of _______ were sort of basic, but clever. Music and ending were A+. Probably half the time I spent on your boss was because I was tired, but that's still 35 minutes of dying over and over through no fault of my own due to early and late firing fireballs. Having someone playtest can avoid things like this. He was epic as shit and died awesomely, though. If you aiming to upstage me, you certainly succeeded.[/spoiler]

ALSO

[spoiler]DOG ENDING IS BEST[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayma on December 05, 2009, 03:13:17 PM
RE FRIDAY: [spoiler]I can't take credit for the lighthouse or the maze to nowhere, but I'm glad you didn't straight up hate my hologram maze![/spoiler]

After seeing what everyone else has done, I'm kinda itching to do it again with some knowledge under my belt. EK3, anyone?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 05, 2009, 03:27:14 PM
HI

DO NOT ENTER MY AREA (famine) WITHOUT THE HOLOGRAM

YOU CAN GET REALLY FAR BUT EVENTUALLY RIGHT AT THE VERY END THERE IS AN UNWINNABLE ROOM (I AM PRETTY SURE)


however if anyone actually manages to somehow make it past my entire area without hologram, let me know!

Alternatively, said unwinnable room could be altered a tad to allow a gramless win.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Doom on December 05, 2009, 03:37:52 PM
I didn't make anything for this, Bongo. I wish I had but I'm guessing my deadline was coming up during the nasty depression bout I had near the end of the summer and I just let Newbie know I was dropping out entirely.

Of course now I feel bad and wish I had shouldered on!

EK3, please.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: McDohl on December 05, 2009, 04:03:28 PM
Yeah, I'd be down for working on some EK3.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 05, 2009, 04:39:04 PM
I've been horrifically lax on my mirroring duties, but v 1.5 is now hosted at

http://hundredcoins.org/brentai/files/Worst Forums Ever - Exquisite Knorpse 2.knytt.bin (http://"http://hundredcoins.org/brentai/files/Worst Forums Ever - Exquisite Knorpse 2.knytt.bin")

PATCH NOTES:
Some stuff.
Final boss now much easier I'm told.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Misha on December 05, 2009, 05:19:30 PM
Friday:[spoiler]Is death beatable?[/spoiler]

Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 05, 2009, 06:41:46 PM
He is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8aPfByHkhg

(A little over two hours btw)
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Catloaf on December 05, 2009, 06:42:25 PM
I'm stuck at the double jump bit.  I can get the double jump, but I can't fucking get back.  A joystick actually makes thing worse, as the 360 pad doesn't even let you use the horrible D-pad, so any minor move at all on the stick, makes you hit both left/right AND up or down.

I would be able to get farther, but I have a weird thing where, even if it's a later thing that I can't get past, the more I do a admittedly mundane and easy room to get to a hard one, the more likely I am to fuck up in the easy room.  If that fucking wall spitting dude didn't spit so goddamn much I could do it, but there's just too many bullets for me to dodge with keyboard controls and no controller with a goddamn D-pad!
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 05, 2009, 06:53:50 PM
I had problems with that too. I ended up going to bed and doing it the next day (today). After I realized to pass the shooty guy you just have to be fast and ballsy, it took me forever to work out how to get out, then actually do it. The keyboard controls for this game are pretty god awful, and I couldn't get JoyToKey to work (Googling suggests W7 compatibility issues) and it just took forfuckingever. Maybe it's because this is the first Knytt game I've ever played? I don't know. I suggest coming back to it later.

I am currently stuck in the god damned spike mines, where you have to dodge a running guy and a falling guy and a laser shooter guy and then jump around and I don't know how to get to the save point at the top of the room. I got on the grey blocks and--do I have to jump up and over from the wall? That's my best guess and it's impossible.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on December 05, 2009, 07:48:23 PM
That's what I get for not checking more up-to-date information on who made what, I guess! Pretend I said LaserBeing.

So tonight I'll finish this up, and then I'll give everyone presents impressions.

1.5 mirrored here (http://frontal-lobe.net/Worst%20Forums%20Ever%20-%20Exquisite%20Knorpse%202.knytt.bin).
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 05, 2009, 09:14:26 PM
[spoiler]Ending(s) are awesome.  Especially the one that is based on my insane rambling but is much better than what I actually had in mind.  Good job.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 05, 2009, 09:25:37 PM
GUESS WHO DOESN'T GET TO TALK ABOUT FFFFFFFFFFFFF BOSSES

HINT: SHE MADE DEATH
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kazz on December 05, 2009, 10:27:59 PM
I put a save point after every challenge in my area.  I figured nobody would have fun replaying the same jumping puzzle over and over.  Thanks for the positive feedback.

Unfortunately I was far more entertained by the feedback from people playing my EK1 level.  I'll have to find a good middle ground.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Zaratustra on December 05, 2009, 10:54:30 PM
I love leeham's juni art

ALSO FROCTO

WHEN YOU LP THIS

IT IS VITAL THAT YOU GO RIGHT ON THE SCREEN WHERE THERE IS A RAINBOW

(right after the volcano)
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kazz on December 05, 2009, 11:21:12 PM
SPOILERS

(http://kazz.rooms.cwal.net/kayinek2.png)

DON'T WALK LEFT
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 05, 2009, 11:24:55 PM
If theres a new version, put another step over on the screen before this so that doesn't happen again. That was a braindead mistake.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: sei on December 05, 2009, 11:26:29 PM
I thought it was a nice touch and you being clever, especially after how much of a pain in the ass it was getting back to that screen.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 05, 2009, 11:32:06 PM
Actually i just played it again and I see my logic. You should remember it AND you have a double jump. Perhaps a save point next to the double jump would be a nicer change. Man I really thought my area was pretty damn easy. I only forwent the save point because I figured it'd only take a handful of attempts to clear and I should try not to be entirely devoid of challenge.

My perspective on difficulty is more warped than I previously assumed.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: sei on December 05, 2009, 11:37:03 PM
Thanks for the sig.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayma on December 06, 2009, 12:01:41 AM
the sig.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 06, 2009, 02:10:00 AM
There is a part near the end of the game that I made which people were complaining about. Specifically, the four screens in this video (http://bit.ly/6It95U) seem a lot more random and unfair than they probably ought to. This is a hideous video with a terrible watermark and I'm playing poorly since it's 4 in the morning, but it should demonstrate that there's a minimally-frustrating path through the dangers. Hope it helps.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on December 06, 2009, 02:42:19 AM
That's where I stopped. Probably do it tomorrow.

I checked out the incredibly hidden exit from the [spoiler]airport-kind-of-place[/spoiler] (it is literally not visible). Did anybody else find it? You'll know if you run into these hep cats:
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: LaserBeing on December 06, 2009, 02:47:23 AM
I HAVE DEFEATED THIS GAME

GOOD SHOW ALL AROUND YOU SADISTIC BASTARDS



now all I have to do is deal with :dead:


 :loser:
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Lobst on December 06, 2009, 04:08:39 AM
Fuck!  There's an R<3G reference in this game, I can sense it!  *is vain at all of you*  *(or rather, continues to be so)*

The [spoiler]Mizu-O-Kami boss fight[/spoiler] was unbelievable; the [spoiler]teleporter sequence[/spoiler] would've been better if I'd been able to activate the switches out of order, since I actually discovered the first switch last; the [spoiler]spike mines[/spoiler] were surprisingly well done; the [spoiler]Lee-Ham art[/spoiler] was intricately rendered and perfectly placed.

I'm taking a break, now; currently too tired to figure out exactly what I'm supposed to do in LaserBeing's area.  Maybe I'm just spending too much time wondering if Juni's wetness is art?  D:
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Royal☭ on December 06, 2009, 08:49:25 AM
I am in a room in the Well where guys fall and those little blast shooter guys are and I stand on a green switch but now I am stuck, what do I do?

NEVERMIND

Now my problem is where to find the hologram projector.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayma on December 06, 2009, 10:45:30 AM
Now my problem is where to find the hologram projector.

 ::D:
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Royal☭ on December 06, 2009, 11:49:49 AM
 :enraged:

Am I doing this wrong, or is someone just worse than Hitler?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Zach on December 06, 2009, 02:30:43 PM
Zach:
[spoiler]HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU WIN AT EVERYTHING FOREVER. Except your lavafalls jump. When the "music" started looping I started crying from laughter. Your final area was weird and confusing, which I guess was the point![/spoiler]

[spoiler] I had more trouble with navigating the spiky guys at the end than with the lavafall. Both were attempts at creating more challenges rather than the raw atmosphere of my first Exquisite Knorpse level. Thanks for the feedback! I had fun making the new music.[/spoiler]

I guess that I should play more of this then, huh? I really like what I've seen so far! Is 1.5 pretty stable?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: LaserBeing on December 06, 2009, 03:01:20 PM
There are still a few issues here and there but I'm not sure when Newbie is going to release the next patch. But yeah, go for it. You can always hack your way through with the editor if you get totally fucked.

Honestly I am kind of blown away by the quality of this thing. Of course, the polish is matched by an even greater level of insane asshole bastardry, but I expected that from you people.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 06, 2009, 03:33:28 PM
I've been collecting little fixes and changes here and there. I guess 1.6 is about ready; I'll start uploading that in a minute.

We're getting to the point, though, that most of the bugs have been caught and the really imbalanced portions have been made a little more accommodating. If you guys who contributed would like to make changes to your areas now that you've seen the full map, that'd probably be okay. I'd ask that you put the changed rooms into a new level (preferably at the same X/Y coordinates) and just send that to me, though, so that they aren't lost in the sea of existing rooms. Hell, if you'd like to make changes to MY areas, that'd be fine. Some of the more uneven sections could use some polishing.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on December 06, 2009, 03:52:44 PM
:enraged:

Am I doing this wrong, or is someone just worse than Hitler?
Try using the hologram.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 06, 2009, 03:55:58 PM
What is wall swim, exactly? Is it when you climb a wall up or down but then the next screen has nothing to climb?

That happens here

(http://i45.tinypic.com/2dj8e51.png)

but maybe on purpose.

Or is wallswim changing screens into a wall?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on December 06, 2009, 03:58:39 PM
Wallswim is when you pass from a location on one screen that has no wall into a location on the next screen that has one, and you end up "swimming" inside of the wall.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 06, 2009, 03:59:24 PM
Okay then never mind.

Also I feel like I went the wrong way but I haven't progressed much further so who knows.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: LaserBeing on December 06, 2009, 04:21:35 PM
One thing that I don't think has really been pointed out: there are a few areas where you need to press the down arrow to interact with various things. Because of the way the engine works, this isn't really consistently obvious (basically you press down to activate teleports, but a teleport can look like anything so this technique gets used for doors and switches and whathaveyou). And I don't think it's even mentioned in the tutorial level that comes with the game. So just so everyone knows, sometimes you can press down and things will happen!
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 06, 2009, 04:23:33 PM
The Machine is the real tutorial level for Knytt Stories.  It's not that long, and by the end you should understand the fineries like "oh I can slide down this" and "hey parachute affects my movement speed".
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 06, 2009, 04:27:34 PM
Yeah, in EK2 original release, I went straight from double-jump to the exposition/map area to the end of Kazz's stage simply because SOME PEOPLE don't know the limits of Juni's jumping aren't as low as they seem a lot of the time.

p.s. brentai you can climb out of murasa the way you came back in, too
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 06, 2009, 05:28:59 PM
There is a missing border on the tile up and left of this guy

http://i45.tinypic.com/148qdtv.png (http://i45.tinypic.com/148qdtv.png)

also I dunno where to go anymore
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayma on December 06, 2009, 05:56:37 PM
If you guys who contributed would like to make changes to your areas now that you've seen the full map, that'd probably be okay.

Hmmm... I did kinda wanna put some text in my area, since I didn't know how to do that before making my developer room. That might be a bit against the SPIRIT OF KNORPSE, though...
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 06, 2009, 06:50:50 PM
okay, finished.

friday definitely doesn't get to complain about the final boss.  (who really wasn't nearly as bad as I was fearing.  and yes, I was still playing 1.0)
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 06, 2009, 10:29:31 PM
If you're releasing a new patch, can you fix the area I got stuck on in episode 3? You'll see what I mean when the video goes up.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 06, 2009, 11:35:26 PM
how in the world did that not get noticed by someone, anywhere.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 06, 2009, 11:42:07 PM
I think it goes without saying that I have special powers when it comes to this sort of thing. I'm a born play-tester, just ask Brentai.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 06, 2009, 11:56:26 PM
Outstanding
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 07, 2009, 02:59:23 AM
I've been running around the world for a while and I don't know where to go. I'm here (http://i46.tinypic.com/64kkqq.png). Someone help
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Dogstar on December 07, 2009, 04:05:38 AM
yyler: wait till the pink thing up top is on the right, and the bee is out of the way. Hop up the outside left wall and get into the upper left corner, wait there till the pink thing goes back right, get over halfway, hide in the top middle left till pinky goes left, then scoot to the lower right and exit.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 07, 2009, 11:11:10 AM
Quote
GUESS WHO DOESN'T GET TO TALK ABOUT FFFFFFFFFFFFF BOSSES

HINT: SHE MADE DEATH

uh you do know Death is completely optional right
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 07, 2009, 11:26:14 AM
What items have you picked up so far, yyler?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 07, 2009, 01:32:51 PM
I have run, climb, double jump, high jump, and the umbrella. I can get across the scaffolding just fine. I've been around the world a couple times and don't really know what to do or where to do it.

I found the place meant for Frocto by jumping over the sand pit, but the arrows made it seem like I was entering the area via the exit, and when I went down there it seemed like a hole to troll Frocto so I didn't bother. Do I have to go in there?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 07, 2009, 01:36:56 PM
Oh, wait, should I have gone down the updraft in the lava area? I never did, and Frocto just showed it to me via the magic of YouTube.

Edit: Looks like yes. There is stuff here. Okey doke.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 07, 2009, 02:17:21 PM
The things you still need to get, then:
-Blue Key ([spoiler]go back to Spike Mines[/spoiler])
-Red Key ([spoiler]left from UFO[/spoiler]; requires Blue Key)
-Hologram ([spoiler]bottom of the lava flow where the updraft originates[/spoiler]; requires Red Key)
-Radar ([spoiler]even further left from UFO[/spoiler]; requires either Blue or Yellow Key)
-Eye ([spoiler]even further left from UFO[/spoiler]; basically requires Radar and Hologram, but it's possible to get without either)
-Purple Key ([spoiler]west-most exit from the research center[/spoiler])
-Yellow Key ([spoiler]close to the clock tower[/spoiler]; requires every ability)
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 07, 2009, 02:20:34 PM
noooo i dont want to go back in there
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on December 07, 2009, 02:30:13 PM
Approach from the west. With the umbrella, you don't even have to face a single obstacle.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 07, 2009, 02:31:28 PM
I did and it was perfectly fine. But now I am in the Well, and wondering how to join the advertised group.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on December 07, 2009, 02:34:48 PM
Friday, I just got to your bonus area.

How could you do this to me, Friday? I thought we were friends!

(And I thought your main area was bad. And Newbie's bonus area.)
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 07, 2009, 02:36:48 PM
By the way there is a typo and floating piece of tree on this screen http://i49.tinypic.com/k9sv80.png

And most the music so far (edit: in the well, i mean), if you spend too much time on one screen, doesn't loop

Is the last thing even a worthwhile thing to report?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 07, 2009, 02:55:37 PM
So there is. Thanks.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on December 07, 2009, 04:00:10 PM
And most the music so far (edit: in the well, i mean), if you spend too much time on one screen, doesn't loop

Is the last thing even a worthwhile thing to report?
This is a (mis)feature of the game engine: music doesn't loop. Ambient noises loop, but they don't fade out, which is why some of the music was technically implemented as ambient noise.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 07, 2009, 05:33:19 PM
Quote
Friday, I just got to your bonus area.

How could you do this to me, Friday? I thought we were friends!

(And I thought your main area was bad. And Newbie's bonus area.)

You are not Ready.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Dogstar on December 07, 2009, 08:10:04 PM
Version 1.5 - juni is free, including Death.
This was a beautiful game, guys, but seriously. Is there no fucking way to make all the fireballs fire at the same time, instead of one randomly firing a second before or after the others and fucking up a gorgeous dodge routine?

Also, Friday holds no power over me any longer. I'm as free as juni.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 07, 2009, 09:11:04 PM
uh you do know Death is completely optional right

the only content in a knytt stories game is seeing the next screen.  nothing is optional.  NOTHING.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 07, 2009, 09:39:27 PM
Quote
Also, Friday holds no power over me any longer.

GRAWRRR I WILL ALWAYS EXIST AS LONG AS EVIL EXISTS IN THE HEARTS OF MEN... PUFF.

Quote
the only content in a knytt stories game is seeing the next screen.  nothing is optional.  NOTHING.

you have not truly conquered me until you have conquered CPE
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: sei on December 07, 2009, 09:58:41 PM
Quote
Also, Friday holds no power over me any longer.
Okay, no.

Quote
Give me the Yellow Key. Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Four Horsemen to take back the Yellow Key that you have stolen. For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom is as great...
[thunder rumbles]
For my will is as strong as yours, my kingdom as great... Damn. I can never remember that line.
You have no power over me!
FIFY
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 08, 2009, 12:23:26 PM
I am both very impressed and disappointed! First I'm going with the disappointment because I want to be positive in the end! So first off, fuck most of you! You know who I like? I like Kazz. Remember how much we hated him in EK1? Now he's a precious darling and I want to bring a nail bat to each and every one of you besides maybe Brentai too. Man and I thought I was a bit too mean to end the sewer section with that wall climber with no saves. You guys are CRAZY. The amount of RANDOM GARBAGE on the screen at any given time is incredible. There were times when success was pretty based on mostly luck. When would the game decide to not do the thing that would kill me? Thats not challenge, that's bullcrap. I hate to point fingers, but friday was the worst offender of this. Maybe it would be different with a different toolset with more predictable, tuneable traps -- but that is not what we have. And to couple this with a lack of save points -- holding back save points can be fine when done RIGHT. But when the majority of the challenging screens in the game require an element of luck (sometimes a large one!), then there is no excuse to hold out. That no longer becomes a skill test, it becomes a test of patience. The majority of the hardest screens in the game were hard just due to poor design.

After EK1, I figured it'd be better to move to more atmospheric territory. The whole difficulty arms-race is not really good for anyone.

ANYWAYS THE GOOD. Holy shit, there was a real sense of location in this game. Even Bongo's spike hell had a definitive setting with a hint of lore. Newbie's R&D area was one of my favorite places in the game. Brentai's area was also incredibly well executed -- not to mention the final boss, which was, I think, a little too hard in the later bits, but still one of the best designed challenges in the game. Brentai gets my award for best contributer. Friday's death boss was excellent as an optional challenge and was among her better designed moments. The fluff leading up to the fight was also awesome. Just generally fluff in general was just awesome to have and I hope for EK3 or whatever we try and focus more on that type of experience then kicking the players in the balls with tools that are a poor fit for that job. Also <3 Lee-ham and his art. Generally speaking, everyone but Kazz did an excellent job on constructing an area that felt like someplace and had mood. Kazz just had an otherwise excellently designed area. Also he had the BOUNCY ROOM so it's all good. I wish Kazz's area received some fluff, as it stood out so much.

The short of it is, this EK2 was way better than EK1, but if I see another god damned hose or evil flame, I'm throwing a brick at someone's head.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Doom on December 08, 2009, 12:24:47 PM
I feel even worse about not finishing my zone because it sounds like it would've been a nice breeze of easy air.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 08, 2009, 12:28:47 PM
For the next EK3 I think it'd be nice to try and set stuff up in away to help people work in parallel. That way we have more time to build and other people can work without having someone hold them up due o schedule issues.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kazz on December 08, 2009, 12:39:13 PM
yeah my area had no music or scenery.  I apologize.  The fact is, there are only so many useable tilesets, and frankly I despise most of them, so I went with something that was very easy to work with and not difficult for the player to see.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayma on December 08, 2009, 12:48:01 PM
The best part about Kazz's area is that it was IMMEDIATELY RECOGNIZABLE as Kazz's area. Also: Bouncy Room.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 08, 2009, 12:49:07 PM
I don't even really see it as a problem. It's just noteworthy in it's contrast. All i'd change would be some note of the area in the R&D room with some vague excuse as to why the area exists as such.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 08, 2009, 01:01:54 PM
I mentioned it in #ff, but I'd like to see a Ludum Dare styled EK3 (even if it would be a misnomer to call it Exquisite Knorpse at that point), where there's some central theme or idea, and then everyone just makes their own stand alone level, constrained by a self-imposed deadline.  Like, not everyone has to do their stage in the course of one week, but try to take only a week to make a complete level/game.  Maybe connect them by a Mega Man Boss Hub or something when finished.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 08, 2009, 01:07:42 PM
If I was to approach the idea RIGHT NOW with no additional time to think out a better course of action, I'd ask everyone who was interested to say what they want to do with their area. Then I'd arrange them in a sensical way (Sewer down here, city up here, lost forest to the west) and designate some territory for everyone.

Once we get that squared away we can get people to do transitional areas or whatever to really link things together. I'd might go so far as designing an metroidvania flow chart and 'layout' to have people use as a guideline, so the flow of action is well done.

Or something like that.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 08, 2009, 01:50:16 PM
I liked Kazz's area a lot, actually. It was a nice contrast to go from detailed, musical environments to a pit of nothing. I figured it was on purpose.

Plus his annoying jump puzzles got me better situated with the controls, and yes, bouncy house.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 08, 2009, 02:00:42 PM
Quote
The amount of RANDOM GARBAGE on the screen at any given time is incredible. There were times when success was pretty based on mostly luck. When would the game decide to not do the thing that would kill me? Thats not challenge, that's bullcrap. I hate to point fingers, but friday was the worst offender of this.

You need to cite examples, or I can't improve. Post screens, or describe them.

Quote
And to couple this with a lack of save points -- holding back save points can be fine when done RIGHT. But when the majority of the challenging screens in the game require an element of luck (sometimes a large one!), then there is no excuse to hold out. That no longer becomes a skill test, it becomes a test of patience.

My save points in my main area were every two screens. Just like IWTBG. Even apocalypse had a save point every two screens, except for the ascending bit. Are you complaining about the ascending bit?

Please note I am not angry, or annoyed, or whatever. I want constructive feedback. The most important thing for me is that the player has fun.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 08, 2009, 02:08:25 PM
Also, as far as EK3 goes, I'm saying we call it EK3: No Evil Flames, and mean it. Maybe the final boss can be an entire room of them. But they are a shitty goddamn random element. This was basically the first time I've worked with this editor, and after using them liberally, seeing others use them liberally, and dying to my own areas and others area because of late fireballs, I'm seriously done with them. Because Evil Flame can fire late, and DOES fire late about 25% of the time, that's a 25% chance the player is going to fail your screen even doing everything correctly. I wholeheartedly agree that they are shit and must be used very very carefully or not at all.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 08, 2009, 02:13:23 PM
I'm also puzzled by your hatred of hoses. All three kinds are completely predictable. The green type does have a bit of random spread to it that can fuck you over maybe 10% of the time, but that's not super bad, nowhere near Evil Flame, anyway.

Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 08, 2009, 02:15:45 PM
Whether or not I am willing to go back through that again is another story, but the house comment is more a general one, and not you specific. it's particularly bad earlier on without the hologram. it also sticks out as one of the most overused items in the game.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 08, 2009, 02:20:01 PM
Quote
it's particularly bad earlier on without the hologram. it also sticks out as one of the most overused items in the game.

Alright, I agree with both of those sentiments.

Quote
Whether or not I am willing to go back through that again is another story,

OK, I can understand that, but if you do remember anything in particular, please let me know. I've had a lot of people screaming at me lately, but very few specific examples/rooms.

If you want, just go through the editor and take a quick glance at my rooms. Should refresh your memory without having to endure it again.

ROOMS ALREADY NOTED:

1. Final Boss of Apocalypse (Complaint: Laser Grid is not solid enough to memorize, leading to random deaths until finally a path is learned. 50% agree, could use improvement.)

2. Final Ascending Room (Complaint: White bullets on white background. I... don't really understand why this annoys so many people. You can tell what the arc is anyway. Plus the room is easy as shit regardless. But I guess I will avoid doing this in the future, simply because people didn't like it!)

3. Any room with Evil Fire in It (This includes Final Boss of Apocalypse and both Wars. Don't worry, I've learned my lesson with evil fire.)

Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 08, 2009, 02:45:09 PM
IN OTHER NEWS

I just completed my second playthrough of the knorpse. I'm still playing 1.0.

Anyway, in regards to the final boss, I discovered it was mainly three things I had a problem with.

1. Evil Flames firing late

2. Me being tired

3. Using the save point at all

Once I eliminated 2 and 3, the final boss was actually not bad and really fun. Taking out a layer of fireballs should put him right where he needs to be. You'll still die once in a while from random late shooters, but it's tolerable.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayma on December 08, 2009, 02:49:41 PM
I really envy youse guyses ability to play games. I really have trouble getting through, well, everything.

I think I might invest in a wired 360 controller and some joy2key.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 08, 2009, 02:55:48 PM
Yeah, this game is too hard, which is mostly (though not entirely) my fault. If I ever design another area, I'm going to make my main area a lot easier and stick the OH FUCK BULLET HELL bits in an optional path. Or I may just have a I DISLIKE PAIN and I LIKE PAIN branch right at the start.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Zach on December 08, 2009, 04:17:15 PM
I'm having trouble with the non-Friday areas. Guys, I fear that I may not make it.

Frocto, your experience is my only hope.

How was the difficulty in my area -- specifically the lava fall?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: LaserBeing on December 08, 2009, 04:22:50 PM
I think that a good rule of thumb for the future would be that if you can't beat your own level 10 times in a row without dying, it is probably too hard and/or random.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Doom on December 08, 2009, 04:28:55 PM
Niku play-tested IWTBG and Kayin made it.

Just throwing that out there.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: LaserBeing on December 08, 2009, 04:40:45 PM
All the more reason they should be able to beat their own levels consistently. Note that Kayin has been the one bitching about randomness the most. Granted, the level might STILL be too hard, but it's the randomness that seems to be pissing people off
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 08, 2009, 04:45:23 PM
I am having troubles even with places that aren't supposed to be hard (or as hard); at least, I don't think. I can't get past [spoiler]Frocto's head[/spoiler] nor can I return to the area before and I was seriously considering editing my save to get out.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 08, 2009, 04:48:36 PM
Lee-ham hit the nail on the head. Granted in IWBTG, who's purpose was well tuned (but consistant) carnage,my value was fair less then 10. In fact, I more or less 'wing it' in that respect, but as a rule, if you the creator find it too hard or difficult then it is going to be WAAAY too hard or difficult for anyone else. You the creator are better than everyone else at this one point. You are in your prime and you know a lot of details by playtesting and adjusting things that the average player won't.

Saves are also a touchy issue. In general you need to consider the challange. If something is a knack and tricky until solved (first fruit screen in IWBTG, Bongos rush bug screen), then you can withhold a save for a relatively easy screen. If you have a flat out easy screen, you can have it lead into a harder screen and then have a save. There were so many hard screen -> hard screen segments with no save. In fact there were somethings 3 or 4 screens?!!?!? D:

Terrifying. I might have made IWBTG but I really did fake most of the difficulty and kept things as playable, balanced and in a sick way, fair as possible.

edit: Yeah also we're probably too hard in general, even without the randomness. But the randomness just adds to the frustration factor. If we decide to do another one, we should really try and decide what we want out of the game, difficulty and challenge wise.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayma on December 08, 2009, 04:56:28 PM
.... huh. LaserBeing is Lee-Ham

*Bookmarks DeviantArt page*
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 08, 2009, 04:58:31 PM
Lee-ham is a fag who doesn't update his DA.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 08, 2009, 05:02:21 PM
Quote
as a rule, if you the creator find it too hard or difficult then it is going to be WAAAY too hard or difficult for anyone else.

All my areas are relatively easy for me with the exception of Death. Self-playtesting is good, but you need to have others playtest also. (Which I did. Believe it or not, my playtester helped me tone down a lot of my areas.)

Quote
I might have made IWBTG but I really did fake most of the difficulty and kept things as playable, balanced and in a sick way, fair as possible.

IWTBG was completely non-random, it's true. But it required pixel perfect jumps a lot of the time, so you can't get away with saying it was "fair". I love IWTBG to death, but I'd be fucking lying if I said it didn't frustrate me often. The difference is I have a very high tolerance for that kind of shit. Higher than most people, including you, it seems.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 08, 2009, 05:05:07 PM
That is also true. I had quite a lot of play testers of varying skill.

As for IWBTG being fair or not, I wouldn't say it's actually fair, but it's 'fair' for what it is. The rules and areas are consistent and besides for the "gotchas!", the challenges can be beaten consistently with skill or practice.

I mean come on someone beat the game on impossible.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 08, 2009, 05:09:45 PM
In my opinion, requiring pixel perfect jumps is completely unfair. You'll note I bitched about both of them in Zach's and Brentai's area. Zach's was bad because it was combined with Evil Fires. Brentai's were bad because you had to do upwards of four of them in a row before a save.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 08, 2009, 05:12:14 PM
To be fair, Brentai's pixel perfect jumping segment I think suffered more from repetition for no reason, more so then it suffered from being an actual pixel perfect challenge.

Though pixel perfect is misleading, all those jumps have a relatively large window.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 08, 2009, 05:14:04 PM
Don't get me wrong. I'm with you about reducing randomness. And yeah, I don't mean "pixel perfect" literally.

The problem as I see it is it is really hard to design areas that are challenging without using a semi-random element or requiring near perfection. (Or both, but that's only Ghosts and Goblins.) Not that it can't be done, of course. It's just a lot harder. Good design is hard to do. IWTBG was well designed and fair in it's own way and fun. My area may or may not be less "fair" than IWTBG, but that's irrelevant to me. What IS relevant to me is if my area is fun. If it's not fun, it goes. End of fucking story. So I would appreciate any additional feedback in that area.

I am thinking about actually going in and making some edits (particularly to Apocalypse) to reduce randomness/difficulty. The slower/less skilled players aren't to my areas yet, so there's still time to work on it.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: LaserBeing on December 08, 2009, 05:41:29 PM
"Fun" is notoriously difficult to quantify though. And the line between fun and frustration can get really blurry. Like there were parts of Apocalypse where I was totally :khaaan: while I was suffering through them, but once I beat them I was like :victory:


I think the real underlying problem with getting people from this community to design and/or playtest games is that we are all basically trolls at heart
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 08, 2009, 05:51:44 PM
Well I think ek2 would benefit intensely from a slathering of additional save points. There are some screens I think need some tweaking, but it's all a lot better if the saves are all over the place. Most of the worst bits are the worst because you have to handle strings of meanness.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Royal☭ on December 08, 2009, 08:16:52 PM
It's sheer randomness that pisses me off in EK2.  Although it's mostly a problem with how enemies were designed in the Knytt Stories engine in the first damned place.  Hoses aren't too bad (the random variance in particles isn't so great that I feel cheated), but then you have enemies which not only spray random clouds, but do so at random intervals.  This is what gets me, that AI is so unpredictable that running through a room can be as more an act of chance than skill.

These alone wouldn't be a problem, but more often than not their used to block paths that keep the player from avoiding the random fire of other enemies.  Several points in Apocalypse do this.  This is also present in rooms where you have to make precipitous jumps with those flying enemies who shoot randomly.

And as for Apocalypse, it felt great when I finished a room, but more in a sense that I was glad I don't have to do that again, not in that I felt like I accomplished something.  One of the early rooms required you to run through a zig-zag pattern with moving lasers, the spike platforms and those little buckets that shoot fireworks or whatever.  Each time I got to that point my entire run could be cut short because of random chance with little for me to stop it.  I'm now on the ascending part, and haven't quite figured out what to do on the third screen to keep from being annihilated by fireballs.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 08, 2009, 10:55:25 PM
I feel bad for not having more episodes of this done, but I got a tummy bug and was passed out for 20 hours yesterday. Hopefully when the LP is done it'll help Kayin isolate the examples he's talking about.

SPEAKING OF WHICH...
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 08, 2009, 11:01:44 PM
The thing about Evil Fire is that while yes it will occasionally fuck you by going off late, this is rare even on the stacked flames and more or less these challenges come down to timing and position.  I think I may have keyed into their rhythm better than most, though, which is why everyone thought my boss was a bitch while I can blow through him in a couple of minutes (though as Friday noted, the save point is deceptively against you and was not actually intended to be that way).  This is why I consider Death to be actually fun except for that last room which has a damned wall-shooter, an enemy that cannot be tracked or predicted in any way and has a good chance of firing directly into the small window you have to hit the last goal, thus sealing your doom.  That's random.  The Evil Fires are just occasionally dicks.

That said I agree that when we return to EK3 there will be a moratorium on some overused elements (Evil Fire being way above the top of the list, followed by lasers, then wall-spreadshooters, hoses, exploding ball launchers, and that giant statue tileset.  ...so basically pretty much everything I've ever used for a boss.)  It may actually be worth giving this engine one last go just to see what a ban on some of our crutches would do for creativity.

One last note on the "pixel-perfect" jumping, the area was actually designed to be played without the high-jump, which makes those jumps a lot easier (or at least less likely to result Non-Newtonian Fluid death).  This is partially why I tried to get Newbie to stop suggesting it get played very late in the game, but at the same time the Hologram does make that boss a joke.  He's actually a joke without it too, but the joke is a lot less obvious.  As for the repetitiveness... I literally slapped the escape sequence together on the last day, after having had the damn thing for three weeks and wanting to stop, so yeah I do apologize for the rush job there.

A lesson has been learned but the damage is going to send me back four screens fuck this save point placement guys.

EDIT: I may have  :MENDOZAAAAA:'d Frocto there, whoops.

EDIT EDIT: Also want to point out that while Laser Grid tends to mop the floor with me, I consider it a perfectly valid challenge.  It's not the grid's fault that I can't be assed to remember a simple two-configuration pattern.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 09, 2009, 12:13:42 AM
HI

DO NOT ENTER MY AREA (famine) WITHOUT THE HOLOGRAM

YOU CAN GET REALLY FAR BUT EVENTUALLY RIGHT AT THE VERY END THERE IS AN UNWINNABLE ROOM (I AM PRETTY SURE)


however if anyone actually manages to somehow make it past my entire area without hologram, let me know!

Alternatively, said unwinnable room could be altered a tad to allow a gramless win.

It's possible to beat the War boss without it, and possible to get the item without it (ducking back into the prior room).  Getting the item AND moving on to the next screen?  Yeah, might be impossible.  I'm trying anyway!

EDIT: Scratch that, it's possible.  Now let me see if I can do it all in one go.

DOUBLEDIT: While I would not actually recommend it to anyone, you can beat both the boss of War and the boss of Death without the hologram projector.  If there's another random "unwinnable" screen then maybe I was barking up the wrong tree.  I just didn't feel like going through the entire stage tonight.

EXTRA SPOILERS EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpGYpShEG_4
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kazz on December 09, 2009, 12:46:54 AM
holy SHIT, dude.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 09, 2009, 12:56:14 AM
Death boss never really required holo, I think it's the War boss people are complaining about because of the part where you're basically trapped inside the boss waiting for lasers to turn off which pretty much results in a quadruple-hole fireball gangrape.

One of the screens in Apocalypse had the same problem, but I quietly added a block there so you wouldn't notice it.  I guess the lesson to be learned here is to never mix fireballs and lasers.



...oh right SHUT UP OKAY
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 09, 2009, 01:37:43 AM
RE: Niku

Well, OK. So it is technically possible to get through my entire main area without the hologram. Your reward is a free hologram from Death!

(Note: I do not recommend doing this. My main area was designed with the gram in mind, so not having it inflates the difficulty rather much. But still, I guess Newbie was right! Also nice work, Niku.)

RE: Difficulty

Everyone has a problem with Apocalypse. I am going to fix it/tone it down. My main area is remaining unchanged, since nobody has pointed anything out at all to me in specific about it so far.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 09, 2009, 02:00:00 AM
Apocalypse fixed. Patch notes:

1. All evil fires removed. Including the one in the boss room.

2. All kill walls and ceilings marked by lasers.

3. Random spread fire guys removed from room 3.

4. Bubble shooters removed from room 4.

5. Tiny crawlers removed from room 7.

6. Save point added to mid way through ascent.

7. White background removed from final room of ascent.

This should address every problem that has been brought up. Sorry about this, guys, I take full responsibility for creating such a frustrating area, and hope that the new area will be a lot more fun and a lot less retarded.

Will send to Newbie ASAP, he'll have the new version to download soon.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Guild on December 09, 2009, 04:17:32 AM
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r40/jsnlxndrlv/Info1.png)

hey i drew that

neato

where's my cut of the action i want my money
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 09, 2009, 08:17:39 AM
Friday er I think that might be a bit of an overreaction.  But then I ate your levels for breakfast, so maybe not.

OM NOM NOM

OM NOM
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 09, 2009, 09:29:24 AM
Death boss never really required holo, I think it's the War boss people are complaining about because of the part where you're basically trapped inside the boss waiting for lasers to turn off which pretty much results in a quadruple-hole fireball gangrape.

You can do that too, I just didn't make a video for it because I assumed it was Death boss who was supposed to be impossible.  For the record on War, [spoiler]run in, double jump first barrage,  get to the second square block platform before laser transition, jump over the two fire shooters but under the diamond, deploy umbrella, double jump to avoid second barrage, float to the wall on the right as soon as laser disappears.  It requires basically 99% luck to not be hit in that second barrage, but it's possible.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Royal☭ on December 09, 2009, 10:18:07 AM
Actually I just thought about what I might think is the most annoying part of Friday's area (or any area that does it, really), which is that sometimes when you find a save point it's on the opposite end of the screen, so when you die you have to do a lot of walking to get back to where you were.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 09, 2009, 10:21:05 AM
 ::(:
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Royal☭ on December 09, 2009, 10:27:13 AM
 (http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/Bon_Bon_2009/scruffy-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 09, 2009, 04:16:37 PM
Quote
Friday er I think that might be a bit of an overreaction.

I think you and I are both a bit more masochistic than the average player.

Anyway, I want to give this another shot with EK3. I don't know why I didn't use a difficulty selection before, I've been preaching it for so long.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 09, 2009, 08:29:13 PM
(WARNING: A lot of words about how awesome I am ahead.  May cause you to believe that I am really self-centered, when actually I just really like talking about game design.  Also I'm Brentai.)


I think my biggest accomplishment with Exquisite Knorpse is the fact that you guys keep talking about bosses as if it were a completely normal thing to have in Knytt Stories.  Sirius Chamber (it was actually supposed to be just SIRIUS but the combination of only appearing in allcaps text and next to the word "chamber" kind of altered what people ended up calling it) was one of the first things I built for the original Exquisite Knorpse, basically right after I played around with Castle Assaram a bit to learn the system.  I immediately went from "How to I use this?" to "How do I break this?", which is kind of my standard behavior towards anything that comes with an editor (see also: the Airy-Go-Round and Molgera stages from SSBB, all the weird experimental crap I left on OmniLudiCon, etc.).  The idea I most liked was implementing what is recognizably a boss battle within a system that does not provide any sort of meaningful context for such a thing.  Despite the relative simplicity of that particular room and the fact that it relies almost completely on random elements, I'm still pretty happy with how it turned out.

OTOH I have to wonder if the paradigm shift of "non-combat exploration only" to "boss challenges DO exist" isn't less because I designed the original EK bosses to be such and more because I repeatedly insisted on calling them "bosses".  I mean yeah, Sirius Chamber is basically just the finale of The Machine with a bunch of crap shooting at you, and God of Fire is literally nothing more than an anthropomorphized obstacle course.  When you get down the technical specifics of it, they're nothing more than standard challenges with a unique bit of personality and way more fireballs than usual.  Then again again, that may just be the specific definition of a boss.  Hrm.

At any rate, my obvious goal with EK2 was to complete the paradigm shift.  YARR, HARR BE SPOILARRS!

[spoiler]So Mizu-no-Kami is honestly nothing special.  When I sat down to put together Murasa I made a conscious decision to focus more on atmosphere and setting than on raping the player with my flaming designer cock.  The more I fleshed out the setting though, the more I required context for it, which is sort of how the Word Train at the beginning got out of hand (though at the same time I had made the conscious decision to make it ponderously long, because I thought it was funny).  Once I got to the Sea God blah blah blah part though I realized that I was almost obligated to make the connection to God of Fire, and also I had just so happened to have discovered the awesome "tidal wave" effect by accident as I was dicking around (also the third screen, if you don't use the hologram you'll see what the homing shots are supposed to do, which is sort of form this cool orbit around your platform).  So I sort of went with making him almost a homage to GoF despite the fact that I was trying to make a more relaxing area.  And then he turned out to be puss-easy and the slapdash escape sequence was the real challenge, OHHHH WELLLLLL.

Anyway yeah obviously my real pet project with this Knorpse was uhhhhh "Box Monster" (it's supposed to be Dark Force from Phantasy Star II but apparently not too many recognized that sprite, probably because it's from the end of a game so unfair it makes EK2 look like Kirby).  Box Monster was my absolute, probably final breaking of the Knytt Stories concept.  It made the player actually attack and kill a creature in a game where the concept of direct combat specifically does not exist.  Also I implemented a health bar, lol.  There are unfortunately a ton of things about the final product that I'm not 100% happy with, but I did manage to accomplish, in my mind, the one thing I had set out to do: make the Knytt Stories engine my bitch.

Also, at least three other contributors added their own "bosses" and nobody batted an eyelash or even said "You took that idea from Brentai", so clearly my campaign has met with some amount of measurable success.  And it inspired the Knorpse's best joke.
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayma on December 09, 2009, 08:51:52 PM
 :tldr:
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 09, 2009, 11:11:14 PM
That whole essay about myself can be safely skipped.

ON A DIFFERENT NOTE, I'm starting a poll before the "What can we use instead of Knytt Stories for next time?" question effectively puts the cart before the horse.  Don't worry, we won't be seriously talking about this for a good long while.

(Consider yourself a designer if you have an interest in contributing to the Knorpse in the future even though you haven't done so yet.)
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 10, 2009, 01:04:22 AM
Since Kazz wanted to LP this one, I figure I'll be doing everyone (especially Zara I am so sorry ;_;) a favour if I am a contributor on the next one of these.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayin on December 10, 2009, 02:10:11 AM
Personally i want to see Knytt Stories done one more time. I think we've matured enough in our usage of it that we might be able to produce something super nice given another attempt.

Also the fact that there is like nothing available that has as much resources but is also as simple... Maybe if we begged Zara for the base of something?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 10, 2009, 02:13:23 AM
Having played this and toyed around with the editor, there is a fair chance I would be interested in helping to complete the trilogy.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 10, 2009, 03:01:16 AM
Also, this game is fucking fantastic so far.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 10, 2009, 11:10:55 AM
fun fact: you can skip zara's ufo entirely by using the umbrella to leap back over the quicksand and then backtrack to the palace and up the throne room.

haha, scratch that.  as soon as you get climb, you can skip straight to grabbing the high jump and then the umbrella, thus negating my area, kazz's area, bongo's area (save for popping in the back to get the key), and zara's area.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 10, 2009, 11:52:14 AM
god damn wall climbing sequence breaking

but can you skip why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Zach on December 10, 2009, 12:08:24 PM
Personally i want to see Knytt Stories done one more time. I think we've matured enough in our usage of it that we might be able to produce something super nice given another attempt.

I'd support that. My zone in EK2 is better than what I did for EK1, and now I've purged myself of the need to make challenge levels and fireball spam. What's the next stage? That's what I'm not sure about. Ambiance, exploration, and designing some new tiles?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: François on December 10, 2009, 12:28:19 PM
I have an idea for this, I think I might want to join. Gotta learn the editor etc. etc.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 10, 2009, 02:42:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z16yAx4M4ng

by popular demand
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayma on December 10, 2009, 04:54:15 PM
I had a blast making my level, and have really enjoyed seeing what everyone else did, and watching Frocto blast through it all. Big Ups to Newbie for putting this monster together.

And yeah, I don't care if we use Knytt or not, I'll definitely be a part of the next endeavor. You know, unless I start suicide trolling and get permabanned.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kazz on December 10, 2009, 05:11:36 PM
right now I am actually making my own level.  but i would be part of the next ek project.

i'd like to come later in the game this time; in the first two, i was pretty early.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: McDohl on December 10, 2009, 05:31:21 PM
Since it would be my first time, I'd like to be more early on in the sequence, that way I wouldn't have to balance for too many powers.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 10, 2009, 06:03:15 PM
(http://www.nikumatic.com/images/noholograpocalypse.png)

nobody gets to complain about apocalypse anymore.  (v1.0, because updating's for suckers.)
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 10, 2009, 07:16:10 PM
okay while inadvisable, yeah, it's entirely possible to beat v1.0 without ever getting a hologram projector.

[spoiler]The first stage of the final boss where you need to hold down the switch is fucking insane though.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 10, 2009, 08:29:54 PM
Wait, how did you beat Test of Wit?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 10, 2009, 08:30:50 PM
That might be the cruelest thing you've ever said to me.   :oh:
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 11, 2009, 03:45:07 AM
hey someone tell me how to make it so that i can hit a flag or shift or whatever and make a lot of blocks appear somewhere (specifically when i grab an item)

i suspect i have to duplicate the rooms and use warp, right? i cannot for the life of me figure out how

i didnt want to start a new thread please dont split it i'll feel bad
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 11, 2009, 05:04:12 AM
Put, like, Shift A in the same tile as the item. Have it go to the exact same room, except with the blocks. Make sure the shift has Shift On Touch, Invisible, and Turn On Flag for the relevant item, since it's unlikely that the player will actually be able to pick up the item when he hits the shift.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 11, 2009, 09:40:55 AM
I can do that, I think. The problem is the blocks are in another room (three rooms, actually, but only two of them connect to places that should otherwise be the same). Is there a way to turn on warps so that I can go from the duplicate rooms into the regular part of the level from before only after I hit the shift?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 11, 2009, 09:50:32 AM
I can do that, I think. The problem is the blocks are in another room (three rooms, actually, but only two of them connect to places that should otherwise be the same). Is there a way to turn on warps so that I can go from the duplicate rooms into the regular part of the level from before only after I hit the shift?

Yyyyyes, I know it's possible. It takes using a Flag to do so, though, which is something I still haven't tried to do myself, yet. Zaratustra and Brentai made warps that worked that way in EK2. Let me see if I can find the method.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 11, 2009, 10:16:55 AM
Thanks, that'd rule. I tried looking at rooms that I know do that in the level editor but I don't understand what they are doing, how, or why.

I think for now I am going to clone all the rooms from the start to the area that I need blocks to appear in, which sounds stupid, but it might be the best way to do it: start in the miniature cloned level, work your way through to said item, warp to the real level, continue on.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 12, 2009, 02:27:37 AM
It's too late and I've been working with way too much theoretical stuff today to really grok what you're trying to do without some sort of diagram (corporate SQA is ridiculously serious business) but it sounds like what you want is a Warp on Item Flag.

The gist of it is, you place your warp object (0-20, the box with four arrows) somewhere on the screen where you want the exits to be altered.  In the Screen Editor, select a flag at the top (probably Flag A), scroll the dropdown underneath it to the bottom where you have all the "Item xx" options - meaning the warps will only work if the player has that item - and then set up where you want your exits to go to using the "Warp Up", "Warp Down", etc. options.

If that doesn't help just PM me some explanation of what you're really trying to do and I'll see if I can't work it out for you.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: SCD on December 12, 2009, 09:36:27 AM
If that is too slow, I suggest looking at "don't eat the mushroom" as I suspect that is a simplified version of what you are looking for.  I do know that Zara's fine work knyzarro used ( or at least I think used) that particular item-based teleport. 

Apologies in advance if I'm off the mk
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 12, 2009, 09:47:25 AM
what is this knyzarro
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: SCD on December 12, 2009, 10:13:56 AM
Really?

Alright:  goto the nifflas support forums and look it up in the releases bit.  You should find zara's work still there.  It is a contest entry in the last pyolympics that towered over everyone else. 

That and don't eat the mushroom are both fun rides although detm is short and easy ( spoiler:  you shouldn't die once unless you try.)
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 12, 2009, 10:28:36 AM
Yeah, I played DETM, it was bundled with the Knytt Stories download Newbie or Brentai gave me when I was asked to LP EK1. I was bored on the train ride home one night and went through it in about ten minutes.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 12, 2009, 10:32:54 AM
I couldn't find it.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 12, 2009, 10:43:05 AM
Knyzarro (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/Zaratustra%20-%20Knyzarro.knytt.bin). This was Zaratustra's creation that one year where Knytt Stories Level Creation was part of the Pyolympics.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 12, 2009, 10:47:32 AM
It was an event this year, t - aaaack gaaah choke
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: SCD on December 12, 2009, 11:33:13 AM
Not quite.  The pyolympics were 2008, where the WOE was 2k9. 

No reason to choke.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 12, 2009, 03:12:23 PM
Uh, I don't know if we're going to be using Zara's hacked version or whatever, but I want my item to be the Hologram, and I want it to be after pretty much everything else. I love designing with full powerups, but I hate having to design for the gram.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 12, 2009, 03:15:32 PM
Actually, if I had my way, I'd say fuck the gram. It is not a very interesting item. It can be used as a "key" of sorts by blocking off area with those spike guys and those electric runes, but we have four other keys to work with. I propose leaving out the gram entirely, and just toning down the challenge accordingly.

Having the gram also just completely negates so many tools that the designer can use. Falling mouths, shooting mouths, evil fire (used sparingly), etc, are all just negated by a hologram dropped at the entrance of any screen. Yes, I know Zara is designing a limited duration gram, but I say why halfway fix it when you can just drop it entirely. There's no law that says we have to include the holo in our game.

Others may disagree and/or have interesting ideas about using the gram, of course. I just don't see it being a very compelling or interesting powerup.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on December 12, 2009, 03:24:03 PM
I feel like the hologram turns Knytt into an annoying pixel perfect jumping "game" because you can no longer be challenged with enemies.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 12, 2009, 03:43:41 PM
Yeah, that too.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on December 13, 2009, 02:00:11 AM
Brentai, I'm afraid to end this cutscene in your final boss.

[spoiler]The hologram and the save point were my friends! The only things in this game that have never killed me! And you took them away from me! How could you be so cruel? The only way I was able to get past everything that came up to it - most especially Friday's gauntlets - was with those two things! And now you take them away?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on December 13, 2009, 02:44:49 AM
I'm done. I did not beat it. I stalled on what I assume was the final stage of the final boss, where you deal the finishing blow, and I realized that I was not playing a game. Rather, I was gambling. My victory was entirely contingent on whether, three times in a row, no fireball would stray from its path directly into my trajectory. Do everything perfect and still lose a hundred times in a row. I've lost all enthusiasm for the lavish praise I was going to heap on everything prior to the endgame gauntlet.

I'm going to go play a nice, forgiving deterministic turn-based game.

Thanks for toning down your endgame section, though, Friday. That laser maze scared the bajeezus out of me but it wasn't so bad once I actually made it; but I wouldn't have been able to get there if you hadn't submitted that patch.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kazz on December 13, 2009, 02:56:38 AM
don't feel bad.

frankly, i gave up during my own section.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Stush on December 13, 2009, 05:52:28 AM
This looks like, super fun to make, i'd sorta like to give it a go sometime, would that be alright? I'll grab the stuff i need and see how easy it is to pick up.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 13, 2009, 01:18:22 PM
If you really are giving up, Bill, then open the editor and place yourself in the room directly above the final boss. Brentai did a bang up job of the ending, and you should see it.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 13, 2009, 01:45:03 PM
Thankyou, everyone who worked on this.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Guild on December 17, 2009, 04:25:04 PM
I have a very high tolerance for that kind of shit. Higher than most people, including you, it seems.

Friday... bragging?

This seems like one of those situations where pixel-perfect jumps are appropriate and even necessary for the game to hold my interest, but then again I used to save the princess in 45 minutes in the original Prince of Persia. With most of the potions and almost full health and the run button taped down (not really that would be suicide).

The harder a game is, while still being intuitive to figure out, the better it is. Even if it means I have to 'grind' out each specific jump until I can do it first try, it makes the ones I start to frequently one-shot all the more sweeter. In Knytt Stories games I learn the timing so perfectly, and it's because the timing and sound integration are all spot-on. That little 'dng' I hear when Juni hits a wall trains my reflexes to tell me exactly when she'll land and where.

A four-screen no-saves randomfuck superjump area is a-ok once and a while in my book, but if there's one in every area, and I have to re-cross that area many times, that starts to get annoying. What I'm seeing in Frocto's LPs don't look exceptionally evil, so I'm going to assume everyone playtested their jumps (since that's what any sane person would do, and I only drew art in this thing).

For some really fun and rather hard gameplay, play any of the glass ball levels from Within A Deep Forest.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 17, 2009, 04:53:51 PM
Quote
Friday... bragging?

nope, just saying I'm a masochist and most people aren't. I'm not exactly proud of it or anything.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Guild on December 17, 2009, 06:00:00 PM
 That's how I feel about my Castlevania completionist compulsion.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: DoctorKazefa on December 22, 2009, 09:49:23 AM
Holy fuck how do I get past this part.
(Literally. Where is the exit?)

p.s. Yes, I made an account just to ask this question... and I have hi jump, double jump, climb and parachute but nothing else
Fantastic game btw!
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Niku on December 22, 2009, 09:54:41 AM
Step on that green button in the middle.  Stay there until door opens.  Profit!
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Frocto on December 23, 2009, 07:55:38 AM
or you could watch my "narrated" "walkthrough"  :profit:
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 23, 2009, 09:11:10 PM
"Now you have to die 50 times on this part and finally wallswim your way past it."
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: DoctorKazefa on December 24, 2009, 12:37:00 PM
Trust me I normally would Frocto but I couldn't find a video of you doing that part yet.

p.s. you die a lot
 ::(:

edit: oh god is this even possible?
can i jump off and come back to the button without leaving the screen, will that add cumulatively?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on December 24, 2009, 12:57:25 PM
HINT: Umbrella blocks shots.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 24, 2009, 01:08:19 PM
Umbrella blocks shots, yes, but you can jump up and down on the button or otherwise move away and then back. It's not as fast as just standing on the button, but it may be necessary right there.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: DoctorKazefa on December 25, 2009, 06:38:49 PM
Thanks! I love this game.
Now I'm a-searchin' for the yellow key, which isn't (?) at the top of the clock tower like I thought the scientist said...

EDIT: Bwhahahah found it
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Friday on December 25, 2009, 06:59:15 PM
 :nyoro~n:
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: DoctorKazefa on December 28, 2009, 09:39:23 PM
Jesus this is brutally unforgiving.

EDIT: Now I'm on the moon, what the fuck (and I bypassed the flaming eyes part, after dying 100 times and only making it to the third screen). I swear whoever made the Space Bandit's hideout did so on LSD.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on December 28, 2009, 09:54:33 PM
It gets pretty hard in certain places.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: DoctorKazefa on February 14, 2010, 12:18:12 AM
 :nyoro~n:
Beat it.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on February 14, 2010, 12:21:22 AM
Oh, hey, maybe it's about time we make another to complete the trilogy?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on February 14, 2010, 03:58:21 PM
I would be down.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on February 14, 2010, 04:04:26 PM
Yeah, I'm up for doing another one, but I wanted to hear more about Zaratustra's idea for letting everybody build simultaneously and not needing as much moderator involvement.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on February 14, 2010, 04:24:10 PM
Speaking of Zara, we should definitely use the Knytt 2 he made.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on February 14, 2010, 05:25:24 PM
It would kind of limit our audience to do it that way, though.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Kayma on February 14, 2010, 05:41:01 PM
That would be an issue.


...unless we bundle game and program together. Can we do that? Is it legal? Is it safe?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on February 14, 2010, 06:48:51 PM
I have no idea why it would be an issue, save it'd be slightly harder to add to whatever level DB is out there which nobody plays EK via anyway.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on February 14, 2010, 07:45:01 PM
All you'd have to do is package it with Knytt Stories 2.exe rather than Kytt Stories.exe and keep the rest of the file structure intact. It's a whopping <1000 kilobytes more of data, I think that could be managed.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Brentai on February 14, 2010, 08:13:25 PM
Well the problem is that the level editor has this nifty self-packager that doesn't include the entire game executable because that'd usually be redundant.  It's the preferred method of level distribution, but you'd have to make sure people are playing it in the right damned game.

I suppose you could put in some hack like making the starting room have a message like "GO HERE TO DL KNYTT STORIES 2" and then the KS2 executable automatically takes you out of that room.  Or just stop worrying about it because like 1 guy outside of WFE has any interest in playing a Knorpse.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Royal☭ on February 14, 2010, 08:56:24 PM
Is it possible we could just ship the whole thing as our own version of Knytt Stories?  Replace the regular game, so all the player has to do is unzip and kyntt.exe?
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on February 15, 2010, 02:25:19 AM
Well the problem is that the level editor has this nifty self-packager that doesn't include the entire game executable because that'd usually be redundant.  It's the preferred method of level distribution, but you'd have to make sure people are playing it in the right damned game.
I don't know what you are saying here? The preferred method of distribution is the level you made plus the .exe, that's it. If we just ship the .exe Zara made instead, no one will care or load it wrong.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Zaratustra on February 15, 2010, 10:04:22 AM
Yeah, I'm up for doing another one, but I wanted to hear more about Zaratustra's idea for letting everybody build simultaneously and not needing as much moderator involvement.

Would work like this:

1) Everyone makes a single area with some open connections
2) The moderator ties them all together in a single map
3) Each player is tasked with connecting the areas of two other players
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: yyler on March 06, 2010, 02:26:29 AM
Does anyone want to organize this? I've been sitting on some great ideas since the last one (as I am sure we all have). I will as a Last Resort but I don't think I'd be best for it.
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on March 06, 2010, 06:48:26 AM
Okay, sure. (http://brontoforum.us/index.php?topic=4799)
Title: Re: Exquisite Knorpse 2: The Worst Exquisite Knorpse Ever
Post by: Bongo Bill on June 22, 2010, 11:17:30 PM
So apparently for the last few months, both my mirror and Brentai's have contained version 1.5. Whoops. I got that straightened out; mine's now got 1.9, the latest.