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[Miss Cat Ears]

Wow.  Not WoW, just wow.  I had been ignoring this thread (because I ignore things I have no interest in, like World of Warcraft).  I didn't realize it was actually a pretty decent thread until just now.

I agree with Shinra in that a lot of people here seem to be throwing the word addiction around very casually.  From a healthcare perspective, the use of something becomes addiction once the use continues despite ongoing consequences.  And those consequences can be to their mental, physical, or emotional health.  It can be consequences at work, or consequences with relationships.  And what is casual use of something to one person could possibly be or become an addiction to the next, but that isn't a call someone can make without being very, VERY close to the situation.

So no, I don't think it's fair to say WoW is an addiction.  I don't think it's anybody's place to say "Anyone who _____ regarding WoW is an addict" or anything similar. 

That isn't to say that World of Warcraft, or ANY game, can become an addiction.  I have dealt with it myself - I have a younger brother who a few years ago had an addiction to online gaming.  I don't know all the games but I know that WoW was the first, then others once my parents stopped paying for his accounts.  And this was an addiction. He had consequences - failed out of school, lost a girlfriend and then most of his friends, often forgot to eat, and when my parents locked the computer away he would find a way to break into the room to continue playing.  It was VERY SERIOUS, alright?  He saw a therapist who specialized in gaming and computer addictions for approximately two years and currently has to be actively aware of how he is acting toward gaming in any capacity.

But that doesn't mean that Warcraft is dangerous, or an addiction by nature.  That is not your call to make unless you are close enough to witness someone's life falling apart because of it, or you are a professional.  These people have years of training behind them for a reason - that reason being that addiction is not a simple thing to categorize or define and every person has their own tolerances and weaknesses.

For example: I cross stitch, at a minimum, 25 hours a week.  Most of the time it is well above that.  And it is most certainly above 20% of my free time.   By most definitions I have seen in this thread, that would make me an addict.  And yes, that is a silly thing to do but it is also a silly thing to call an addiction.  It boils down to very similar things.

And I feel that for the record, I should state that I disagree with Shinra's disapproval of the 12 Step program.  I am an atheist, was raised an atheist, and will always be an atheist, but I do believe that the 12 Step programs are the only programs that have withstood the test of time and helped addicts in many, many areas more than they have been a burden.  The programs tell you to look to your higher power, not specifically to a Christian god.  Any program directors (or whatever) who encourage Christianity are doing so of their own will, not because the program mandates that.

[Bongo Bill]

They're not saying you are addicted to WoW. They're saying WoW is more likely to become an addiction than most other games.

[Crouton]

I was asked once to quit WoW and play Monster Hunter, which still sounds oddly ironic to this day.

[Fortinbras]

My impression is that everyone thinks Paco is saying something way more controversial than what he actually is, but that's understandable because he's saying it in that Paco kind of way.

[Miss Cat Ears]

What I gathered from his posts was that he was saying putting any substantial investment into a hobby makes it an addiction.  But I could be missing some nuances of some sort, since I was only half paying attention (that's how uninterested I am in World of Warcraft).

[Shinra]

And I feel that for the record, I should state that I disagree with Shinra's disapproval of the 12 Step program.  I am an atheist, was raised an atheist, and will always be an atheist, but I do believe that the 12 Step programs are the only programs that have withstood the test of time and helped addicts in many, many areas more than they have been a burden.  The programs tell you to look to your higher power, not specifically to a Christian god.  Any program directors (or whatever) who encourage Christianity are doing so of their own will, not because the program mandates that.

Whoa now! I didn't say I disapproved of twelve step or even what AA is doing - I said I disapproved of what their definition of addiction is. According to AA, anyone who comes home from work every day and has a cocktail is an alcoholic - what I'm saying is that they have ulterior motives in promoting that (imo, very flawed) definition of addiction.

AA's done good works and they are directly responsible for my dad getting clean for a few years - and I respect that. I don't respect the faith based initiatives that run the organization as a recruiting center.

[Miss Cat Ears]

Okay, I can understand that.  I haven't personally seen or heard of AA using that definition.  In my experience it's been more of a "if you are an alcoholic, you can no longer afford to come home from work and have a cocktail every day."  But the program is so widespread, I'm sure there are hundreds of different approaches.

Unrelated: I like to pretend my dog avatar is talking when I reread my own posts.

[Shinra]

They're not saying you are addicted to WoW. They're saying WoW is more likely to become an addiction than most other games.

Uh, no. Mongrel might be saying that, but Paco and the starters of this thread (who have since abandoned it) are saying that anyone who plays WoW regularly is an addict.

[Shinra]

Okay, I can understand that.  I haven't personally seen or heard of AA using that definition.  In my experience it's been more of a "if you are an alcoholic, you can no longer afford to come home from work and have a cocktail every day."  But the program is so widespread, I'm sure there are hundreds of different approaches.

Unrelated: I like to pretend my dog avatar is talking when I reread my own posts.

This is the html version of the file http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf.
Google automatically generates html versions of documents as we crawl the web.
Page 1
Service Material from the General Service Office
THE TWELVE STEPS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us
and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to
carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
affairs.
Copyright © A.A. World Services, Inc.
Rev.5/9/02

the argument of AA is that you are powerless to fight alcoholism if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

http://www.step12.com/alcoholic-20-questions.html

According to AA, answering 'yes' to any three of these twenty questions classifies you as an Alcoholic. Your sponsor or your meetings may even have narrower definitions. While I don't disagree that a lot of those questions are a definite sign of being an alcoholic, I still feel that they use the word a little too freely because of the positive effects it has on the organizations that sponsor AA.

[Miss Cat Ears]

I readily admit that I have never researched alcoholics anonymous and was only speaking of my personal experience with 12 step programs.  YMMV.

[Shinra]

like I said, I don't disagree with what they do ; I just disagree with how they do it. Anything that helps addicts get control of their addiction is fine by me. The years when my father was sober were some of the best of my life.

[Pacobird]

Uh, no. Mongrel might be saying that, but Paco and the starters of this thread (who have since abandoned it) are saying that anyone who plays WoW regularly is an addict.

No.  The starters of the thread are pointing out reasons why they regard WoW as potentially pathological, and I was commenting that your response to them (that you'd rather engage in activity X than hang out with your friends and it's their fault for not being as fun as X) is the sort of shit an addict would say.

And then you went on and praised WoW for being able to take up 2 hours of your day, every day, with completely avowed repetitive drudgery, as if this is a valid way to justify yourself to somebody who just told you he didn't see how it WASN'T boring.

So really, I'm more trying to get you to think critically about this than criticize WoW itself.


EDIT: I would also comment that 12-stepping is totally at ease with the theory of addiction-as-choice I mentioned earlier; the most important step is to attach meaning and purpose to your life so the drugs aren't the best option anymore.

[Brentai]

I "abandoned" this thread to go to sleep, and then work.

The irony is so thick you could probably forge some sort of +5 plate out of it.

[Norondor]

So really, I'm more trying to get you to think critically about this than criticize WoW itself.

Less effective when you have already copped to concern-trolling.

[Ocksi]

Since, in this thread, we're completely forgoing the idea of a non-chemical addiction, and only going for purely short-term destructive addictions to compare WoW addiction to, then, just out of curiosity, what is smoking?

[Bal]

I actually do think that the twelves steps are basically a cult, but that's another thread.

There are a few reasons WoW can become addictive (I define addiction here and elsewhere as forgoing genuine responsibility to one's self or others in favor of the substance/activity on a regular basis) more readily than, say, Dragon Quest.

1) Intermittent reinforcement. This is the same thing that afflicts the gambling addict, and it is a very powerful psychological force. In this case it is related to loot drops from the various monsters in the game. You've pulled the lever and come up empty 15 times, but on the 16th you get the piece you want, and you never know when that jackpot is going to come, so you have to pull the lever as often as possible. This, I think, also applies to killing bosses in raids, in addition to getting loot off of them. I have felt a physical thrill when a difficult boss goes down for the first time, as I'm sure any experienced raider can attest.

2) Progress Quest. Accomplishing something makes you feel good, for a lot of reasons. In WoW, it is very easy to accomplish many things with time being the only required investment. This ties into the first reason somewhat, but there are also achievements to be had, professions to level up, money to be made on the auction house, and a thousand other goals you can set yourself that are wholly within your reach.

3) Peer Pressure/Social Obligation.  Remember kids, just say no. After a certain point, you can tend to feel beholden to your guild. They need you, and you owe them your continued attendance, even if you'd rather not play on a personal level. It is also empowering to feel needed in this way. It is less true now, but there was a time when there were people in organized raids who could not be removed or easily replaced. To these people (mostly main tank warriors) there was tremendous pressure to keep playing from the rest of the group, and in many cases tremendous pride at being so essential. Just ask Malvado about why he kept playing with us in Molten Core, despite being tired of the game. Do you want to be the one that let 25-40 people down because you wanted to watch the game instead?

4) Time/Money Investment Fallacy (or; I've played so much, I can't let all that effort go to waste). This one is pretty much what it says on the label, and applies to almost any hobby. 

There are probably other reasons that I am missing, but these are the most obvious to me. Very few people are actually addicted to WoW, but those who are probably fall prey to one or more of those things.

[Pacobird]

So really, I'm more trying to get you to think critically about this than criticize WoW itself.

Less effective when you have already copped to concern-trolling.

The best trolls tell the truth.

and only going for purely short-term destructive addictions to compare WoW addiction to

Made funnier by the fact that nobody goes from a merit scholarship at Yale to a gutter two days after they do their first hit of meth.

[Lady Duke]

I'm glad Shinra is so knowledgeable about addiction.  Clearly, he is not defensive.

[Rico]

OH LOOK A SHINY

[Kazz]

http://www.youtube.com/v/XERZywq9o_g