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Author Topic: Aborpopulation  (Read 37774 times)

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  • Magic Gunner Miss Blue
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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #240 on: August 10, 2012, 06:53:21 PM »

Kansas is angry a doctor aborted a ten year old's baby that was caused by an uncle raping her.

For the complete cocktail, the 10 year old's mentally disabled as well.

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Shinra

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #241 on: August 11, 2012, 02:56:54 AM »

My wife and I shared outrage about this last night. I get that the abortion debate is only going to remain relevant to the electorate as long as the right is making mountains out of molehills, but I think they need to choose their battles better than fighting the abortion of a raped ten year old mentally disabled girl aborting her incest baby.

This should be the kind of outlier where they're pointing to this case and saying "Hey, we're not against ALL abortion!" and propping themselves up as being totally reasonable. Yet, somehow, they do entirely the opposite. And these people want to run the country.
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Royal☭

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #242 on: August 11, 2012, 06:11:42 AM »

That's because you probably have a hard time understanding an anti-choice fundie and can't see how this doctor killed God's beautiful gift to that child.

Shinra

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #243 on: August 11, 2012, 06:24:45 AM »

I was going to make a poor taste joke but I can't. I just fucking can't. Fuck everything about this.
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Thad

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #244 on: August 11, 2012, 10:05:10 AM »

I get that the abortion debate is only going to remain relevant to the electorate as long as the right is making mountains out of molehills

The opposite.  They only stand a chance as long as they emphasize vague, hypothetical, rare, and/or probably-imaginary situations.  They start emphasizing shit that actually happens and they're dead in the water.

This should be the kind of outlier where they're pointing to this case and saying "Hey, we're not against ALL abortion!" and propping themselves up as being totally reasonable.

But they're not.

The fundamentalists who are driving the abortion debate, the ones who actually think that the most important threat facing America is a 1973 Supreme Court decision that women should have control of their own bodies (also: gay marriage) -- this is what they really believe.

The parental notification stuff, the "no driving across state lines", the tighter restrictions on when a woman can get an abortion, the ridiculous "partial birth" debate -- all those are window-dressing, death-by-a-thousand-cuts things.  "No abortions, ever" is what these people really want; it's not an exaggeration or a strawman.

I'm not saying a majority of Republicans feel that way, but it is, absolutely, a mainstream position in the Republican Party.

Anecdotally: I've known some crazy pro-lifers.  Been friends with some.  "It's absolutely terrible if a woman is raped, but it's not the baby's fault" is a common refrain.

What you have to understand is, they believe that abortion is literal, not-hyperbolic, actual baby murder.

Framed in those terms, you can see where they're coming from -- I don't think anyone would advocate killing that baby if it were actually born.  The problem is that they consider a zygote to be exactly the same thing.

And that's the thing -- that may be a mainstream position in the Republican Party, but it's certainly not a mainstream position in America.  Even among people who declare themselves pro-life, the vast majority are immediately willing to make exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother.  Drill it down from there and you can probably get most people to agree that if the child is severely deformed or unlikely to survive and giving birth will do permanent damage to the mother's health, that's good justification too.  And from there, most people can reach common ground and start talking about ways to make abortions less common and less necessary.

But there's a fringe -- and a very loud, influential one that is a MAJOR force in driving Republican policymaking -- that won't concede any of that shit, that believes zygotes have souls and abortion is murder.
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Doom

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #245 on: August 11, 2012, 10:09:13 AM »

Quote
"It's absolutely terrible if a woman is raped, but it's not the baby's fault" is a common refrain.

I wonder in the hypothetical stance how the debate could be changed if say, there existed a really good foster care/orphan care system? Health of the mother and birth of the severely deformed would still come in to play, but delivering normal children to a good chance at a life might strengthen the argument against abortion. Of course, such systems don't really exist/are horribly overburdened? Or as the saying goes, defend the poor unborn child until it's born and then fuck it for wanting handouts.
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Thad

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #246 on: August 11, 2012, 10:28:06 AM »

I wonder in the hypothetical stance how the debate could be changed if say, there existed a really good foster care/orphan care system?

Very little, from the perspective of the anti-choice crowd, because their argument relies on the assumption that such a thing DOES exist.  "Put the baby up for adoption" is their answer to everything, as if every baby up for adoption immediately winds up in a good home.

The last time I pointed out to an anti-choicer that people usually do not adopt minorities, the disabled, or children above a certain age, her response was to grab me by the throat and start choking me.  I am not kidding.
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Friday

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #247 on: August 11, 2012, 11:14:59 AM »

Violence is the last refuge of the etc
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Royal☭

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #248 on: August 11, 2012, 11:23:12 AM »

You know, as vocal as the anti-choicers are about hating abortion, I blame some of the losing ground in the culture war on liberals. They've constantly been taking the "But what about rape and incest" bait and helping to define abortion as something that is a Bad Thing. As such they find themselves often tripped up trying to justify why we should allow a Bad Thing. This is something that the fundie right is really good at, which is allowing their framing of an issue to become the dominant one. See also how they trip people up with the "Being gay is a choice" argument, which is still not a valid reason to prevent gay marriage.

Friday

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #249 on: August 11, 2012, 11:31:23 AM »

For what it's worth, I have a friend (same one who is a young earth creationist, for those of you keeping score) who I've been able to make headway with on a lot of issues (the 6000 year old earth bit included, she now admits the "possibility" of evolution) but I have been able to make exactly zero headway with on the Abortion debate. None. Abortion, to her, is child murder, and that is the end of it.

Of course, she doesn't want to end welfare and is actually for more social aid programs so

But yeah. People get into their brains that abortion is baby killing, and that's pretty much impossible to argue against except by saying "a zygote isn't a baby" "yes it is" END OF ARGUMENT
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Bal

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #250 on: August 11, 2012, 12:14:46 PM »

I find the argument becomes hollow once they decide that baby killing is right out, but doctor killing is perfectly all right. I mean, if no circumstance, no matter how horrible can justify the murder of a baby, how is it that there is any act can justify the murder of a doctor? Oh, that's right, because they're full of shit.
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Brentai

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #251 on: August 11, 2012, 12:25:29 PM »

Babies have a chance to learn to bow down before Lord Jesus; doctors have denied Him and are therefore lower than swine.
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Bal

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #252 on: August 11, 2012, 12:34:01 PM »

Jesus doesn't much care what you do, so long as you acknowledge him as the only path to heaven, and has no opinion on abortion. Even if he did, as mentioned, he doesn't actually care. As long as you give him the savior nod, baby killer and doctor killer will walk hand in hand through the gates of paradise.
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Mongrel

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #253 on: August 11, 2012, 01:21:27 PM »

Once you make it a religious argument, you're on their turf anyway.
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TA

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #254 on: August 11, 2012, 01:27:53 PM »

I find the argument becomes hollow once they decide that baby killing is right out, but doctor killing is perfectly all right. I mean, if no circumstance, no matter how horrible can justify the murder of a baby, how is it that there is any act can justify the murder of a doctor? Oh, that's right, because they're full of shit.

I find the argument hollow for the opposite reason.

Suppose there was a place in your town where people murdered babies.  Like, no dissembling or anything, people brought their babies in and the people at this place just smacked 'em with a hammer and threw the corpses in the trash.  Not a day goes by without a baby being murdered.  And you knew about this, and knew that this was all happening with the full sanction of law enforcement.  Nobody's gonna do anything about these babies being murdered.

You'd burn that place to the fucking ground.

These people claim to believe that that's what every abortion clinic is, and yet don't show anything near the outrage that they should, were they true to their beliefs.
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Bal

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #255 on: August 11, 2012, 01:40:41 PM »

That's kind of what I said, from the other direction. As I said in the end, they're full of shit. Either way you slice it they are disingenuous.

Once you make it a religious argument, you're on their turf anyway.

I tend to find that once they make a religious argument it turns out they have no idea what their religion actually says, and it becomes easier to at least outrage and confuse them. This holds true of almost every religious argument.
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Mongrel

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #256 on: August 11, 2012, 01:42:02 PM »

Eh, in my experience they just go in to LALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING THAT'S NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS YOU HERETIC/HEATHEN mode. I suppose outrage factors in to that, but the core problem is that you are straight up dealing with lunatic extremists. Reasonable discussion is like five steps away from an effective solution.

Just like "Strict Consitutionalists" only worse. 
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Shinra

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #257 on: August 11, 2012, 01:44:08 PM »

Or they bust out the mistranslation/misinterpretation/the old testament/the new testament/revelations/the eye of a needle was an arch in jerusalem argument. Trying to convince somebody that what they believe is wrong when their entire life is structured around the validity of their faith is basically impossible.
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Bal

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #258 on: August 11, 2012, 01:53:55 PM »

I have no delusion that I will convince them that they are wrong, I just like watching them turn beet fucking red as I fill their heads with what I suppose passes for cognitive dissonance in there.
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Brentai

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Re: Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #259 on: August 11, 2012, 01:54:51 PM »

You don't use reason and empathy on the brainwashed to change their minds, you use reason and empathy on them to change the minds of everyone else.  Every time one of them grabs your neck and chokes you, you win.
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