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[Brentai]

Isn't all of that what happens in The Old Republic?

[Bal]

RE: "Bringing balance to the Force".

I still maintain that Anakin did this by killing a whole mess of Jedi. They were more high on themselves and detached from reality than corrupt, but the Jedi Order represents a pretty huge rock in the stream that is the Force. Even if they weren't complacent dullards it seems to me the sheer weight of such an organization on the Force is probably a bad thing.

I'll agree that the second thing he did to balance the Force was father Luke as the counter to all the chaos he wrought in the first place, balancing the force in two parts. Anakin burns it all down, Luke builds it back to somewhere reasonable, and counters the growing dark side influence before it can become as disruptive as the Jedi had been.

Notably, Luke is no saint. He's a hot head to start with, becomes a warrior and rebel, explores his Jedi heritage largely to be a better warrior/rebel, and though there's closure with regards to the dark side when he chose not to kill his father, he still beat the ever living shit out of him and chopped his god damned hand off. I haven't read any of the EU stuff regarding the New Jedi Order that he founds. My only experience of it comes from the Jedi Knight games, in fact, but here's hoping he doesn't start taking himself too seriously. 

[Kayin]

Yeah, what's great about the original feel of the mythology is the whole light and dark side doesn't seem like a binary choice where you're either a buddhist monk, or a psychopath who gave into a moment of temptation before being brought down by the wait of some mythological power of corruption. It seems more naturalistic. Clearly both the light and dark side are very strong opposing forces in both trilogies, but like all things that came after the original trilogy, it just seems watered down and more cartoony in the sequels (or seemingly also in the EU, but that I might just depend on the writer).

[Brentai]

What always bothered me about the Anakin->Darth Vader transformation is that the movies give him absolutely no motivation to keep being Darth Vader and follow Palpatine around until Episode IV.  Yeah okay so it's PalpaTech(TM) that's got him on life support but really, wouldn't you jump ship at Cloud City or else just the first place that seems like they can support your freaky robot getup and start planning your revenge after realizing that this cackling jackass just ruined your life?  Or does he just continue to be lured by the carrot of somehow resurrecting Aeris (which is totally at the top of the Emperor's to-do list) and having her totally be glad to be alive and not at all disgusted by the fact that her husband has become a burnt up paraplegic who murders people and, oh yeah, that's right, killed her in the first place?

As goofy as the Force Unleashed games are they at least make a pretty good attempt at a plausible explanation for this bullshit.  Vader spends his time trying to out-Palpatine Palpatine, and never gets anywhere in 20 years because, well, he's as good at planning and thinking things through as Anakin Skywalker.  Which still hinges two decades of galactic oppression on one man being a complete moron, but at least now he gets a gold star for trying.

[Mongrel]

I always liked the idea that the Jedi were wrong and that the Force is a fundamentally neutral element, like any other natural object or force and that "Light" and "Dark" are more a matter of "how you use it".

The neat thing there is that if you go by the EU/Lucas offscreen version, that's actually heretical to the Jedi (and Lucas) who beleive that "sides" are intrinsic to the Force, but that if you just take the original movies with absolutely no extraneous material, they don't actually disprove the Force-as-intrinsically-neutral view (and even support it a bit, like the scene in the cave where Yoda says "only what you take with you").

If you want to rework the story so that the Jedi are just as responsible for any imbalance as the Dark Jedi, that right there is an amazing justification - that they imposed this warped black-and-white ideology on the galaxy and it caused all this misery in the first place. The fact that the Dark Jedi buy into the duology even harder than the regular Jedi even though they're deadly enemies makes the analogy even better.

(delicious bonus note: remember, the EU shows us that the Dark Jedi get wiped out over and over again, but always come back because some regular Jedi always fall sooner or later - so technically for the last x millenia, the real source of all Dark Jedi is regular Jedi).

[Thad]

S02E13, "Voyage of Temptation" -- Dini/Murphy/Gilroy again

This one explores a lot of the very themes we have been discussing!

Obi-Wan and Anakin are escorting a Mandalorian Duchess to Coruscant.  Turns out she and Obi-Wan have a romantic history -- but she's a pacifist and he's a general.

So we get a lot of shit that just isn't there in the movies.  The duchess says, straight-out in dialogue, that Jedi aren't supposed to be generals.  And we've also got an example of Obi-Wan really questioning The Rules, which as I've mentioned before unfortunately doesn't really happen in the prequel trilogy.

And of course there's the obvious parallel to Anakin.  That he has a secret wife (who he fell for under the exact same circumstances -- she's a diplomat he and his master were appointed to protect) is never mentioned in the episode, but it doesn't have to be; this subject is quite clearly on his mind.

And while in a way the episode goes for an easy out ([spoiler]while Obi-Wan and the duchess are debating the ethics of killing the bad guy in order to save everyone on the ship, Anakin walks up and just straight-up stabs him in the back[/spoiler]), it has the good sense not to go for any trite resolution where anyone Learns a Lesson.  The duchess is still a pacifist and Obi-Wan is still a general.  They may have their doubts, but they're living their lives on what they believe in, and the show doesn't go for a tidy right-or-wrong value judgement.

I'll agree that the second thing he did to balance the Force was father Luke as the counter to all the chaos he wrought in the first place, balancing the force in two parts. Anakin burns it all down, Luke builds it back to somewhere reasonable, and counters the growing dark side influence before it can become as disruptive as the Jedi had been.

Very Nietzschean.  Interesting.

[Ziiro]

And while in a way the episode goes for an easy out [spoiler](while Obi-Wan and the duchess are debating the ethics of killing the bad guy in order to save everyone on the ship, Anakin walks up and just straight-up stabs him in the back),[/spoiler]

God, I loved that scene in that episode. I forgot about that. Especially the few seconds afterwards.

[Thad]

"...What?"

So somebody else IS watching these things.  Any recommendations besides the ones I've already put on my list?

[Mongrel]

Mandalorian.... pacifist duchess?

They're supposed to be like... equal-opportunity Klingons (warrior ethos culture open to anybody who "really" wants to join).

Oh man, they really don't care what the hell continuity they blow up with that cartoon at all. Haha, oh god.

[TA]

And while in a way the episode goes for an easy out ([spoiler]while Obi-Wan and the duchess are debating the ethics of killing the bad guy in order to save everyone on the ship, Anakin walks up and just straight-up stabs him in the back[/spoiler])

You can call that an Easy Out, but [spoiler]I think it's more of an exploration of how Anakin differs from Obi-Wan.  Obi-Wan did not want to cold murder the guy, even though his duty demanded it.  Anakin gave no fuck - like he said, dude was gonna blow up the ship.  That's the kind of casual approach that leads to Vader.[/spoiler]

"...What?"

So somebody else IS watching these things.  Any recommendations besides the ones I've already put on my list?

I watched the first three seasons, but stopped with season 4 when the first three episodes were a three-parter that was almost all fighting and nonsense.  Basically, Clone Wars episodes seemed to divide themselves into two categories: those that are mostly CGI combat and are dull as fuck, and those that are character stories and are actually really interesting.  Overall, it's worth just watching from the beginning, really.

[Bal]

I'll agree that the second thing he did to balance the Force was father Luke as the counter to all the chaos he wrought in the first place, balancing the force in two parts. Anakin burns it all down, Luke builds it back to somewhere reasonable, and counters the growing dark side influence before it can become as disruptive as the Jedi had been.

Very Nietzschean.  Interesting.

The crux of it, really, is how many Jedi there are at the end of it all. Ignoring those few remaining in hiding, and various force sensitives (all only explored in the EU), there is exactly one, Luke Skywalker. He's not a monk. He's a warrior, but not a killer, and while he has rejected the dark side, he's no fanatic, and knows that there is no Force without the dark side.

Sounds like balance to me.

[Thad]

Mandalorian.... pacifist duchess?

They're supposed to be like... equal-opportunity Klingons (warrior ethos culture open to anybody who "really" wants to join).

Oh man, they really don't care what the hell continuity they blow up with that cartoon at all. Haha, oh god.

Actually, there's a rationale hinted at, in that she saw her family killed in a Mandalorian civil war.  You can kind of reasonably assume that a pacifist noble is kind of a new thing for them.

You can call that an Easy Out, but [spoiler]I think it's more of an exploration of how Anakin differs from Obi-Wan.  Obi-Wan did not want to cold murder the guy, even though his duty demanded it.  Anakin gave no fuck - like he said, dude was gonna blow up the ship.  That's the kind of casual approach that leads to Vader.[/spoiler]

Well yes, absolutely.

But it's still a convenient way to prevent Obi-Wan and Satine from having to make that call.

Hence the "in a way" qualifier.

It's also a way of making Anakin relatable that the movies just don't do.  You can totally see where he's coming from -- even consider that you'd do the same under the circumstances.  He still seems like a lovable rogue at the end of it.

...dammit.  ANAKIN should have been the Han Solo character in the prequel trilogy.

Basically, Clone Wars episodes seemed to divide themselves into two categories: those that are mostly CGI combat and are dull as fuck, and those that are character stories and are actually really interesting.

Again, the Edlund episode was one of the action-oriented ones and disappointed me in terms of plot and dialogue but really impressed the hell out of me in the visuals.

[A²]

Re: What Luke becomes in the EU.

He basically becomes Jesus. Like, omnipotent, always ready with an asspull, able to do stupid crazy things by virtue of being Luke Skywalker, always good boy Jesus. It's kind of annoying.

If memory serves, there's one book where he willingly becomes (clone) Palpatine's dark side apprentice, and goes full monty into it, with force lightning and murdering people. And the climax of the series is
<Leia> Luke you need to stop being a dark jedi
<Luke> Oh right they're bad. POOF Palpatine I'm good again.

[Mongrel]

Oh man, I remember that. It gets better: That's the series that Lucas claimed he felt was the spiritual equivalent to Episodes 7, 8, and 9.

[Brentai]

It's like poetry, it's sorta, they rhyme.

[Mongrel]

Actually it also amused me at how often people in the post-OT EU go on ridiculous murder sprees (we're talking millions/billions of lives) only to "Poof! Oops! Sorry!" it away.

STORYTELLING! YEAH!

[Büge]

[Cthulhu-chan]

Symptoms may include flat affect, self-important douchebagginess, and possible megalomania.

[TA]

The (Totally) Phantom Menace

[TA]

Dancing to "I'm Han Solo" on Kinect Star Wars