Brontoforumus Archive
Discussion Boards => Media => Topic started by: Disposable Ninja on May 07, 2012, 04:22:07 AM
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So yeah let's have a thread about the Avengers movie universe: Iron Man, Thor, Captain America and of course The Avengers. Speaking of which, I saw The Avengers yesterday. It was fun. Like, textbook definition fun. You open a dictionary up and where it says "Fun" there's a picture of Chris Evans and Robert Downey Jr. high fiving.
For now, a few thoughts:
-I hear Downey did a lot of improvising. I wonder how much of a nerd he actually is because at one point he references Life Model Decoys.
-The Hulk was awesome. Ruffulo was awesome.
-Joss Whedon's foot fetish is alive and well. Gwyneth Paltrow's one speaking scene is spent entirely barefoot.
-[spoiler]Thanos' outer space god dimension is totally Jack Kirby. Just look at it.[/spoiler]
EDIT: alright, inconsequential spoiler redacted.
DOUBLE EDIT: further edited so now it's a HUGE FUCKING SPOILER.
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let's talk about spoilers for a second
SPOILERS: YES IT'S A SPOILER NO MATTER WHEN IT HAPPENS YOU MONUMENTAL FUCKWIT (this monumental fuckwit being more of a theoretical one than actually being you, disposable ninja)
I mean, I am not upset about this! I have seen the movie, and that is inconsequential information overall, and probably if we're going to have a thread it should be spoileriffic anyhow but it has just been ticking me off across the internet in general lately with people thinking they get to decide what is and isn't a spoiler for other people.
anyway avengers is cool
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Ed Norton Hulk is canon too, he just couldn't reprise the role.
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I kinda want to watch Incredible Hulk again. People seem to rag on it almost as much as Ang Lee Hulk but I remember it being fun fluff.
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It was perfectly fine.
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i just rewatched it yesterday because people in IRC were talking about it. I'd say it hasn't stood up very well to rewatching, but it was ok.
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Captain America didn't stand up to a rewatch but the first time I thought it was fantastic. I've popped Incredible Hulk in a few times but always turn it off towards the middle.
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I watched Captain America last night for the first time, after having seen The Avangers. I didn't love it, but I'd like to see more post-frozen Cap movies.
I liked the Norton Hulk movie for its Banner, but not its Hulk, if that makes sense. Haven't seen it in awhile, though.
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So the Avengers was pretty good
I have this like, scale? I dunno
Movies/books/etc can't just have one meter when people ask "ok scale from 1-10" there needs to be at least two. You can break it down to more than two meters but I'm trying to be as simple as possible
The first meter is "fun/entertainment" and this is def a 10 in that regard.
The second meter is harder to define but I guess you could say it's "learning/thought provoking/realism". Movies like Unforgiven, No Country for Old Men, etc rate high on this meter.
Now there are some things (they are really, really fucking rare) that rate highly on both. I'm not saying No Country isn't an entertaining movie, but it's certainly not exactly "fun" at least not compared to something like Pirates of the Caribbean or Avengers or whatever.
I'd say Lord of the Rings and The Dark Knight are examples of those rare media that get scores of 8+ in both meters. Of course ymmv, and people love/hate very different things.
BUT IF ANY OF THIS IS MAKING SENSE TO YOU, THEN I RATE AVENGERS:
"Fun" Meter: 10. It doesn't get better than this. Rapid fire Whedon Ensemble dialog banter + HULK SMASH + THOR LIGHTNING + IRON MAN SHOOTING A LOT OF MISSILES
The "Other" Meter: 2. We don't exactly explore what it means to be human here. We get a little bit of OLD MAN STANDS UP TO LOKI and that's pretty much it before WHAM BANG FHOOSH KABLOOEY swoops back in.
anyway don't let the 2 rating dissuade you
any movie that rates above 8 in either meter is totally worth seeing is sort of what I'm getting at
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It's a pretty good superhero movie but I think people are overselling it a bit. I'd stick it right below Iron Man 1 basically. Which is still pretty high up there!
Hulk pretty much dominates the show any time he's around. I really like this version of Bruce too - I don't know what he was like in ALH but this one, well, let's just say he has a much more realistic attitude about the whole situation in this one than the usual weepy Lonely Man Banner.
I also like how Cap is, at any time before or after the meds, just so hilariously lacking in self-awareness that it almost constitutes a superpower in itself. (Insert joke about Cap representing America.)
[spoiler]Also, the ultimate irony is that Cap's real superpower is the natural ability to get people to fucking pay attention and listen to him, while Stark can't even manage to do that with a giant penis in the middle of New York with his name on it.[/spoiler]
There's a lot going on to think about if you want to, but you have to kind of overanalyze things to get into it. It certainly isn't big black guy tossing the detonator off the boat material, but it's not quite as stupid as all the explosions and shouting Norsemen would have you believe at first.
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On a less good note, the Avengers cartoon they have made was hastily made and pretty much blows. *Shrug* but who cares, the movies are neat.
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I keep reading this thread title as "THE ANGERVERSE!!!"
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Not too far off really.
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QUICK WHO DO YOU WANT MOST IN AVENGERS 2
WAIT, BEFORE YOU ANSWER: VISION, SCARLET WITCH, AND QUICKSILVER ARE ALL DUMB CHARACTERS
i want wasp because she is totally stylin' :cake:
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Forbush Man.
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Machine Man.
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Gilgamesh, the Forgotten One.
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i will never get over how appropriate that name is
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She-Hulk. I want She-Hulk.
In my pants.
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The Great Lakes Avengers
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How about the forgotten founding Avenger?
WE NEED MORE PYM.
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Hank Pym for sure. Hank and Jan together would be ideal of course, but leave out the domestic violence please. It's not even interesting in the comics, and before her death more often than not made Jan seem petty. 616 Jan, obviously. Ultimate Jan was systematically abused by Hank for years, and then almost killed, not smacked once years ago while he was in the middle of a psychotic episode.
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Clearly we need Janet to be based on the whimsical, more fun interpretations as seen in Marvel Adventures and EMH.
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Changing the topic momentarily just to say that I would've watched [spoiler]Hulk Bam-Bam Loki for about 20 minutes longer than it actually went on for. The look on his face afterward is just too good, also.[/spoiler]
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[spoiler]I wonder how many people even realized that Loki was whimpering pathetically after that, because even at a 10:15 AM showing the cheering was almost too loud to make it out.[/spoiler]
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On a less good note, the Avengers cartoon they have made was hastily made and pretty much blows.
Well, I disagree with this entirely. Animation's solid, writing's good, voice cast is quite good. It's not Spectacular Spider-Man good, but it's still one of the best cartoons Marvel's ever made.
Moreover, I quite like the stories and characters they've chosen. We've had characters like Kang, Zemo, Man-Ape, Klaw, Arnim Zola, the Leader, MODOC (yes with a "C" apparently you can't say "killing" in a children's cartoon), and Ultron, and Season 2 is building toward the Kree-Skrull War. The most recent episode featured Michael Korvac and the Guardians of the Galaxy, and the one prior to that had Ant-Man hiring Luke Cage and Iron Fist (the latter voiced by Loren Lester, who played Robin on Batman: TAS) to help him find who'd stolen his tech. (The only disappointment is that it turned out not to be Eric O'Grady.) And early in the season there was an episode where Ben and Johnny came over for poker night and Hulk immediately tackled Thing and started punching him as soon as he walked in the door. And then later swung him around by his feet as a weapon in a fight with Doombots.
If you don't think that's awesome then you're dead inside.
(Unless you were talking about the terrible 1990's Avengers cartoon. In which case, yes, that was terrible.)
How about the forgotten founding Avenger?
WE NEED MORE PYM.
:goodnews: Edgar Wright is supposed to be doing the Ant-Man movie. And apparently it's still going forward (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/05/07/edgar-wright-teases-ant-man-but-i-cant-quite-grasp-whats-going-on/).
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I know and I'm super excited. From what rumors I've heard it may not be a Pym Ant-Man and if that's the case I say we riot.
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The pitch a few years ago was that it was going to be split between a 1960's-era story with Hank Ant-Man and a modern one with Scott. I don't know if that's still the case but I think that would be pretty great; the world needs more period superhero movies. And the potential for a movie where we intersperse a young and old Hank would be cool too. Old Hank as a Hollis Mason-style mentor to Scott.
BTW, interesting bit of trivia on the wife-smackin' bit that people just can't let go of: it wasn't written that way (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2011/04/15/comic-book-legends-revealed-309/).
In that story (issue 213, I think), there is a scene in which Hank is supposed to have accidentally struck Jan while throwing his hands up in despair and frustration—making a sort of “get away from me” gesture while not looking at her. Bob Hall, who had been taught by John Buscema to always go for the most extreme action, turned that into a right cross! There was no time to have it redrawn, which, to this day has caused the tragic story of Hank Pym to be known as the “wife-beater” story.
Now, that's Shooter, so in and of itself it'd be a grain-of-salt story, but artist Bob Hall has corroborated it (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/04/01/jim-shooter-never-intended-ant-man-to-be-a-wasp-beater/):
I wasn’t really a pro at that point. I was a fan with some skill. I could not have drawn the panel the way JIm wanted it. In fact, I remember re-drawing that particular panel several times — not for JIm but because I didn’t like the results. The final panel was the point where I gave up and thought — I know how to do Marvel action — I’ll make it Marvel action cause nothing else I’ve done seems right either.
Anyway, it's like Tony's alcoholism -- I hate it and wish it would go away but unfortunately it's become the first thing people think of when they think of the character.
(Peter once hit MJ too, but everybody ignores that. I think that's partly because we're all pretending the Clone Saga never happened -- indeed that whole issue makes no sense after the "Peter was the real Peter all along" retcon, as it revolved around him having been preprogrammed by the Jackal when he was cloned -- and partly because Peter's just flat-out a more popular character than Hank and fans are more ready to let one bad story slide in his case.)
Now, Ultimate Hank going after Jan was a legitimately creepy and affecting sequence, and probably the highlight of the entire Ultimates run. I have no complaints about that, because you can do shit like that in the Ult U. But I sure wish the writers and fans could put it behind them in the Regular U.
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Anyway, it's like Tony's alcoholism -- I hate it and wish it would go away but unfortunately it's become the first thing people think of when they think of the character.
Even action figure designers. Note the hands:
(http://cdn.ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/1747496-hank_pym_slap_super.jpg)
(http://legendscrazy.net/hasbro/figpics/0034_yellowjacket_goldvari.jpg)
Peter once hit MJ too, but everybody ignores that.
And Reed Richards slapped Susan. But I think that Ultimate Hank really cemented the idea in readers' and writers' minds, and so it became a defining moment for the character. Most people focus on that rather than the "mad scientist trying to be a good guy" aspect of the character because it's just easier.
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No, Ultimate Hank was a wife-beater because readers and writers already thought of Hank as a wife-beater, not the other way 'round.
Even Busiek's run on Avengers dealt pretty heavily with the "Hank has a breakdown and becomes Yellowjacket" angle. Both in the main book and in Avengers Forever (which, as a series specifically designed to clean up ugly continuity -- Teenage Tony, Mutant Wasp, Vision being the original Human Torch -- could have totally retconned it out).
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From a movie perspective, Pym has two problems:
- As a superhero-not-comic fan, I know Hank Pym from discussions about his supposed domestic abuse. And I kind of know that he's a shrinking guy. Besides that, I don't know jack about him, so I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of seeing him onscreen, fucking up perfectly fun movies with uncomfortable beltstrapping scenes. Loki's kinda-sorta-maybe implied killrape threat was even a bit too much.
- Take a look at the plots of this movies and tell me what the hell a guy like Ant-Man is even going to do. Go inside Hammer's suit and fuck with it? Ride the Allspark like a mechanical bull? It's not that shrinking is an overspecialized power so much as the scale of a Hollywood movie plot necessarily makes it inappropriate.
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- As a superhero-not-comic fan, I know Hank Pym from discussions about his supposed domestic abuse. And I kind of know that he's a shrinking guy. Besides that, I don't know jack about him, so I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of seeing him onscreen, fucking up perfectly fun movies with uncomfortable beltstrapping scenes. Loki's kinda-sorta-maybe implied killrape threat was even a bit too much.
Well, presumably they'd spend as much time on his spousal abuse as they have on Tony's alcoholism. That is to say, maybe a very vague implication of it.
And the idea is that he gets his own movie to introduce him and then they don't need to bother explaining who he is when he shows up in an Avengers movie. Same as everybody else.
- Take a look at the plots of this movies and tell me what the hell a guy like Ant-Man is even going to do. Go inside Hammer's suit and fuck with it? Ride the Allspark like a mechanical bull? It's not that shrinking is an overspecialized power so much as the scale of a Hollywood movie plot necessarily makes it inappropriate.
Well, he grows, too. But yeah, "Shrink down to microscopic size and fuck up some electronics" is a perfectly cromulent use for a shrinking power. Spying, sabotage, that kinda thing.
The actual talking-to-ants thing is a little trickier; one of my favorite gags in Ultimates was where he tried to summon ants but they were in the city so he could only get like six of them.
That said, stick him in the right setting and control over bugs is a perfectly decent power to have.
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Hank's spousal abuse amounts to him slapping her once, almost ten years ago in universe time, while is was in the middle of a legit psychotic episode, and he was totally freaked out by it even then. Writers just latched on to it to make some kind of point, or make the characters edgy or some shit, and never, ever let it go. It tends to make Jan seem either petty, when she starts waxing about it as an almost total non-sequitur, or freaking bi-polar where she'll reject him or the idea of getting back together with him due to the incident, and then become jealous whenever Hank seems to be moving on. At which point she would often mindfuck him out of whatever relationship he was trying to have.
It got old pretty quick.
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How much more did the average person know about Thor before his movie? Or even Iron Man?
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Hank Pym is best when he isn't growing or shrinking, but is just Science Man, doing whatever science can.
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True, and I thought of mentioning that, but the team's already got two Science Geniuses.
Related: Frankenstein: Agent of SHADE is kinda the DC equivalent. It's got Ray Palmer, but he doesn't wear a costume or shrink or grow; he is in fact just Science Man.
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I heard that and wanted to check it out, but I'm kind of in the mindset to not reward DC for dumbass moves. And I prefer Ryan Choi as an Atom anyway.
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They need to establish him as Science Man in Avengers 2, so they can show him building Ultron after the credits, and then Avengers 3 writes itself.
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Stark and Banner giving each other handjobs in the lab was embarrassing enough. I think I might spit if I have to listen to three nerds in a room congratulating each other in between outbursts of Cap interjecting with DURR I'M A BIG STUPID SOLDIER AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND SHIT.
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To be fair, Tony would say "I saw your stuff Pym. I improved it." Pym would get all flustered and angry and Banner would stare at the numbers or something boring. That's basically what happens anytime they get together in the comics.
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To be fair, Tony would say "I saw your stuff Pym. I improved it." Pym would get all flustered and angry and Banner would stare at the numbers or something boring. That's basically what happens anytime they get together in the comics.
They could pretty much have every one of his scenes like that, and then bam!
they can show him building Ultron after the credits, and then Avengers 3 writes itself.
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I heard that and wanted to check it out, but I'm kind of in the mindset to not reward DC for dumbass moves.
Hm, you mean the relaunch? I still maintain that the ideas behind the relaunch (jettison continuity, diversify the lineup, attract new readers) were noble, but yes the execution was utterly boneheaded because the same fucking people are in charge as before.
Frankenstein is a great damn book, though.
But if you choose not to reward one ray of sunshine for an overall dumbass corporate direction, well, this is hardly the thread for me to tell you you're wrong.
And I prefer Ryan Choi as an Atom anyway.
Palmer's not actually Atom in Frankenstein -- at least, not yet. I expect it'll happen.
No word on where Choi is post-relaunch, if anywhere.
Anyhow. Adding: I mentioned Eric O'Grady earlier in the thread, and for those who don't know, he's the latest Ant-Man in the comics. He's a small-time thug who stole Pym's tech, which I think is actually a great setup -- not for an Avengers movie, necessarily, but for a story all its own. Shrinking is a perfect small-time thug power.
I could see Wright having fun with that, but it'd be even better with Guy Ritchie.
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Reed's the one who does that usually. Stark isn't as smart as Pym, except at making robot suits.
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Tom Spurgeon, who's done a great job on the whole "Let's acknowledge Kirby" thing, has a couple of good posts up at The Comics Reporter.
These Men Created the Avengers (http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/these_men_created_the_avengers/) recognizes Lee, Kirby, Heck, Lieber, Simon, Millar, Hitch, Bendis, Finch, Rico, Allred, Ditko, and Starlin -- he misses Granov in that list (possibly because, unlike most of those other names, Granov actually got hired on for the movies and gets credit and compensation for them) and I've E-Mailed him about that, but it's really a very good long list and worth reading all the way through.
And he also documents the donations to the Hero Initiative and the Jack Kirby Museum (http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/avengers_related_hero_initiative_donations_hit_2871/), which are around $3000 and $1300 at present -- not bad, but a pretty small damn fraction of what the movie's made. (I'm not judging, mind -- money's tight and I haven't had a chance to donate either.)
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Avengers is a huge, multi-million dollar blockbuster, with three prominent female characters and helmed a director noted for his series with Feminist themes. So why does it fail the Bechdel test? It's not that I didn't like the movie or thought it was great affront to women, it just seems odd that Whedon would stick two prominent female characters on the same set, and then not give them some dialogue together. What's more troubling is that the three, named female characters still end up being defined the men around them.
But, overall I enjoyed the film. I'm still sitting here stupefied that it even got made. When they made the announcement around the time of Iron Man, I wrote the thing off as either going to be in development hell, or going to be some film tossed to a C-list director to hold on to the rights. So it's quite a surprise that ends up being a tight, entertaining action film, that brings together all its different threads and weaves them together pretty successfully. It's audacious just in its existence, so now we get to see if they can hold it together through the second story arc.
Now, on the subject of Ant-Man, I have to admit to having my entire opinion of him changed by Earth's Mightiest Heroes. My initial impressions of Hank Pym came from Mark Millar's Ultimates books, where he was more of a pathetic joke character than anything, defined mostly by bad choices and impulsive violence. It wasn't really a watershed moment for the character. But in EMH, they really get a good grip on the character. Not only do they take advantage of his powers to showcase just how creative and successful a shrinking/growing character can be (see the episode where thugs try to steal from his lab for a good example of the environment just warping around him), but they develop him as an intelligent, thoughtful character.
This wasn't the rash, petty Hank Pym from the Ultimates. The EMH Hank Pym was philosophically a pacifist, who joins the Avengers not to fight crime, but to try and rehabilitate it. He frequently designs his weapons for non-violent take downs, prefers not to get in fist-fights, and even balks when the other Avengers suggest he reprogram Ultron to fight. The show constantly portrays him as a scientist who, while not as brilliant, can still hold his own against Tony Stark and Bruce Banner (although Banner is limited in the show). And the failure of his inventions comes not from hubris or ill-thought, but more from just the corrupting nature of the world. Ultron would never have been allowed to been just a guard robot, because the people around Pym can only see him as a weapon. And, as Thad noted, the Ant-Man equipment is perfect set of tools for a bank robber or petty thief, even if they were designed only to help. It's good stuff, and shows that the writers have reached back into the character's history and pulled out and refined what's good. Plus, he can get into arguments with Jan and never look like he's going to, well...
(http://cdn.ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/1747496-hank_pym_slap_super.jpg)
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This wasn't the rash, petty Hank Pym from the Ultimates. The EMH Hank Pym was philosophically a pacifist, who joins the Avengers not to fight crime, but to try and rehabilitate it. He frequently designs his weapons for non-violent take downs, prefers not to get in fist-fights, and even balks when the other Avengers suggest he reprogram Ultron to fight. The show constantly portrays him as a scientist who, while not as brilliant, can still hold his own against Tony Stark and Bruce Banner (although Banner is limited in the show). And the failure of his inventions comes not from hubris or ill-thought, but more from just the corrupting nature of the world. Ultron would never have been allowed to been just a guard robot, because the people around Pym can only see him as a weapon. And, as Thad noted, the Ant-Man equipment is perfect set of tools for a bank robber or petty thief, even if they were designed only to help. It's good stuff, and shows that the writers have reached back into the character's history and pulled out and refined what's good.
It's funny you should mention all that, because the defining Pym moment for me was an Avengers West Coast issue back in the early '90s where the entire team was brainwashed into trying to kill him and Hank had to non-lethally defeat all of them using only the (shrunken) contents of his pockets.
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Will Edgar Wright Shoot ‘The World’s End’ or ‘Ant-Man’ This Year? (http://www.slashfilm.com/edgar-wright-shoot-the-worlds-end-antman-year/)
So as not to jinx things, I am going to remain spectacularly vague on this. Let’s just say I hope to shoot some Antman & World’s End this year.
Fingers crossed.
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Hero Complex (http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2012/05/11/avengers-spoiler-special-mystery-villains-creator-speaks-out/#/0) interviews Starlin; the entire thing is one gigantic spoiler of the end-credits reveal, so, you know, if you've somehow gotten this far without seeing the movie or finding out what the reveal in question is, you probably shouldn't click. Assuming my mere name-drop of Jim Starlin hasn't already given it away.
HC: I spoke to Jerry Robinson once and I congratulated him on the billion-dollar success of “The Dark Knight” and he winced like I had poked him in the eye. Of course I instantly realized that watching Alfred, the Joker, Two-Face, etc. fill the coffers of Warner Bros. was like watching a son raised in another house with another family’s name. I don’t know the arrangements on this film, but has this project and its success been a mixed experience in any way?
JS: Very mixed. It’s nice to see my work recognized as being worth something beyond the printed page, and it was very cool seeing [spoiler] Thanos [/spoiler] up on the big screen. Joss Whedon and his crew did an excellent job on “The Avengers” movie and I look forward to the sequel, for obvious reasons. But this is the second film that had something I created for Marvel in it — the Infinity Gauntlet in “Thor” being the other – and both films I had to pay for my own ticket to see them. Financial compensation to the creators of these characters doesn’t appear to be part of the equation.
So just to be perfectly clear:
*I* got a free ticket to see The Avengers...which means I have received more compensation from the film than Jim Starlin.
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Apparently the same thing happened with Stan Lee. But then, he's got that golden parachute.
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So the same thing did not happen to Stan Lee.
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Yeah, I wish Marvel made me buy MY own movie ticket out of MY million-dollar-a-year stipend.
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In a bold attempt to continue justifying why I don't read PVP, Scott Kurtz weighs in on why we should stop bitching about Marvel's treatment of Jack Kirby because he's dead, you know (http://pvponline.com/news/where-credit-is-due).
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Man Constantine, if a creator's other batshit and insensitive ideas made it so that you couldn't enjoy or appreciate their other work we wouldn't have Sherlock Holmes, Cerebus the Aardvark, or the Ender's Series.
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Actually, I've come to regret reading all of those. So never fucking mind.
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To be fair, the terribleness of PvP makes it hard enough to enjoy without Scott Kurtz's assholeishness.
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The other thing that's infuriating is the constant "Well the movie was also based on the work of X, Y, and Z; therefore Kirby doesn't deserve any money for it" argument.
Yes, the movie was based on the work of maybe 15 different easily-identifiable writers and artists.
That doesn't mean Kirby's heirs shouldn't get money, it means that there are 14 other guys who should ALSO get money.
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Man Constantine, if a creator's other batshit and insensitive ideas made it so that you couldn't enjoy or appreciate their other work we wouldn't have Sherlock Holmes, Cerebus the Aardvark, or the Ender's Series.
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Actually, I've come to regret reading all of those. So never fucking mind.
Appropriately, Conan Doyle's wacky nonsensical ideas bother me the least of those three and Sherlock is the only one of those three I like without any qualification (the first two-to-four volumes of Cerebus are some of the finest comics ever... too bad about the other dozen+ being among the all-time worst. The less said about Ender, the better).
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Speaking as one who worked on AVENGERS after Kirby, @evandorkin -- I couldn't have done it without someone creating the characters and book.
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I sure do love Kurt Busiek.
...I love Dorkin, too. I assume he said something stupid? That's a pity.
(EDIT: No, wait, he said this:
So, others worked on The Avengers et al after Kirby et al. That's your answer? Really? Buildings without foundations collapse, assholes.
So Kurt wasn't admonishing him, he was agreeing with him. Freakin' sweet; go Dorkin.)
And if Bill and Ted 3 turns out to be based on the comic series, then yes, I absolutely believe that Evan Dorkin should get a cut.
(I also believe the part of Rufus should be played by Ringo Starr.)
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Fantastic Four, Avengers, and X-Men were also pretty pioneering in showing a superhero team in conflict, even if the Justice League did predate any of the big teams by a year or three.
Though speaking of Thor just being Norse myth, I do absolutely love that the comic was so popular they actually did do a spin-off that was just straight retellings of Norse myth. Tales of Asgard, I think. I have a TPB or two somewhere.
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Fantastic Four, Avengers, and X-Men were also pretty pioneering in showing a superhero team in conflict, even if the Justice League did predate any of the big teams by a year or three.
I think it was really X-Men that nailed it. Fantastic Four -- well, Ben was the tragic character but I don't think there was really THAT much strife within the team; most of it was horseplay between him and Johnny, and that love triangle with Reed, Sue, and Namor. Avengers -- well, Hulk quit immediately because he's Hulk, but most everybody else got along, even after Hawkeye tied up the butler and shot arrows at him.
X-Men did a lot of the same light horseplay stuff too, but both Cyclops and Beast quit the team pretty early on. Only lasted one issue, but still.
Certainly Marvel nailed the Heroes with Problems stuff -- Hulk and Thing both struggling with their monstrous appearance, Iron Man constantly fearing his heart would stop, Cap coming back suffering from PTSD after losing his sidekick, and Peter Parker having pretty much any problem you could reasonably expect a guy to have and some you couldn't.
And the X-Men -- the allegory wasn't as pronounced as it became during Claremont's years, but it was there pretty early on; Beast quits the team because he's tired of protecting people only to have them turn around and call him "filthy mutie", and I believe the Sentinel/Master Mold arc was Kirby's swan song on the book.
X-Men was the book that really deepened the "strife within the team" idea under Claremont, and then The Authority and X-Statix each kinda took the premise to its logical extreme around the turn of the century. And pretty much every superhero team book (or toon) since has cribbed from them to some extent or other.
I'm skipping over a lot, of course, but those are all fairly important data points I should think.
Though speaking of Thor just being Norse myth, I do absolutely love that the comic was so popular they actually did do a spin-off that was just straight retellings of Norse myth. Tales of Asgard, I think. I have a TPB or two somewhere.
Yeah, that's where Thor really hit its stride; the Don Blake stuff wasn't as much fun as Stan-and-Jack Do Norse Mythology. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the series where the Warriors Three debuted, right? Man I love the Warriors Three.)
Tangentially: Anybody ever read Horus? It was one of the Moore/Veitch 1963 books. It's pretty much what you'd expect from the context I'm bringing it up in: it's a pastiche of Thor, except instead of being a Silver Age superhero take on Norse mythology, it's a faux-Silver Age superhero take on Egyptian mythology. Really a great damn book.
Quick background: 1963 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_%28comics%29) was a series Moore, Veitch, Bissette, and Totleben did in 1993, made up of tributes to Silver Age Marvel (and, to a lesser extent, DC) books. It was fun as hell, and it was never completed; it was all supposed to lead to a big team-up issue where all the characters traveled to 1993 and met the Image superheroes. Which should probably explain why it was never completed, because it's 20 years later and the Image founders STILL can't finish a fucking project together (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_United#Delays).
Anyhow, 1963 is easy to find; it's a product of the 1990's boom, lots of copies got printed, and it frequently shows up in dollar bins.
Also, since Alan Moore has actively fucking sandbagged Veitch and Bissette's attempts to get the series reprinted, as far as I'm concerned it's okay to pirate it. Especially if you buy some new Veitch and Bissette books so they get some money in their pockets.
...wow, that's one hell of a tangent.
But still, yeah, 1963 is great, and Horus in particular is a thoroughly enjoyable takeoff of those Asgard stories.
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Of course, Moore would then re-purpose the Horus idea later in Terra Obscura, his spin-off from the Doc Savage tribute Tom Strong.
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Fantastic Four, Avengers, and X-Men were also pretty pioneering in showing a superhero team in conflict, even if the Justice League did predate any of the big teams by a year or three.
I think it was really X-Men that nailed it. Fantastic Four -- well, Ben was the tragic character but I don't think there was really THAT much strife within the team; most of it was horseplay between him and Johnny, and that love triangle with Reed, Sue, and Namor.
Well, in the first issue, Ben and Reed got into fisticuffs after their rocket crashed. There was some tension over Susan, I believe, before Alicia Masters came along. And speaking of which, there was also the time that Lyja seduced Johnny while she was posing as Alicia, and that drove a wedge between Johnny and Ben. All in all, though, I think you're right. The FF is a lot more like a family than anything else (another theme that Kirby and Lee pioneered), and they tend to stick together.
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(I also believe the part of Rufus should be played by Ringo Starr.)
:oic:
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Fantastic Four, Avengers, and X-Men were also pretty pioneering in showing a superhero team in conflict, even if the Justice League did predate any of the big teams by a year or three.
I think it was really X-Men that nailed it. Fantastic Four -- well, Ben was the tragic character but I don't think there was really THAT much strife within the team; most of it was horseplay between him and Johnny, and that love triangle with Reed, Sue, and Namor.
The FF is a lot more like a family than anything else (another theme that Kirby and Lee pioneered), and they tend to stick together.
Well, three out of four of the core team members ARE related.
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Well, in the first issue, Ben and Reed got into fisticuffs after their rocket crashed.
Right, forgot about that.
There was some tension over Susan, I believe, before Alicia Masters came along.
Hm, don't remember that offhand but it wouldn't surprise me; the early 1960's were full of abandoned love triangles. (There's a line in an early issue of X-Men where Professor X angsts over being in love with Jean; it was wisely never followed up or acknowledged in any way ever again.)
And speaking of which, there was also the time that Lyja seduced Johnny while she was posing as Alicia, and that drove a wedge between Johnny and Ben.
Yeah but that was in the mid-1980's (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/03/03/the-abandoned-an%E2%80%99-forsaked-johnny-married-alicia/). Not exactly what we're talking about here.
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In a bold attempt to continue justifying why I don't read PVP, Scott Kurtz weighs in on why we should stop bitching about Marvel's treatment of Jack Kirby because he's dead, you know (http://pvponline.com/news/where-credit-is-due).
Mightygodking issues a rebuttal: http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2012/05/22/scott-kurtz-is-still-scott-kurtz/ (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2012/05/22/scott-kurtz-is-still-scott-kurtz/)
It's full of that nasty "logic" all the cool kids sneer at.
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It's the kinda thing I would have written if I hadn't already written it about 400 times in the ComicsAlliance comments section in the past six months.
...I realize, with creeping horror, that I am not sure I am exaggerating.
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http://www.dharbin.com/blog/in-defenseoffense-ofto-scott-kurtz/ (http://www.dharbin.com/blog/in-defenseoffense-ofto-scott-kurtz/) ...and now we've got a third voice chiming in on this!
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I dunno.
First thing is, obviously I am the last person who should be complaining about point-by-point quote posts interspersed with insults for a little flavor. And I seriously doubt I could have responded to Kurtz's post without calling him an entitled asshole, either.
On the other hand -- yeah, certainly bits of the mightygodking post, including the SNL ref, felt a little off. And yes insulting someone is a poor way to reach a middle ground, and can distract from the strength of your argument.
On the OTHER other hand, the mightygodking post ISN'T just a bunch of ad hominems; it's thorough and it's logical. Harbin's engaging in false equivalence here. "People aren't going to listen to you if you insult them" is perfectly good advice, but suggesting that Bird-or-whoever's post is equivalent to Kurtz's is just wrong, and I utterly reject the accusation that "the substance of what someone says is less important than deconstructing each word they use to say it" -- and not just because I'm big on point-by-point response posts myself.
Kurtz is (1) wrong and (2) acting like a real asshole, and he absolutely deserved to be called on it. Bird probably took it a bit too far, but he's not wrong.
HARBIN'S the guy who's harping on a guy's choice of words instead of the substance of his point.
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Welp, I wrote some stuff (http://www.corporate-sellout.com/index.php/2012/05/23/all-or-nothin/) and rewrote some other stuff (http://www.corporate-sellout.com/index.php/2010/04/05/kings-ransom/).
(And yeah there's a formatting thing up at the top where "Categories" and "Tagged" are on the same line. I've never used tags before, have decided now might be a good time to start, and I'm already up WAY too late blogging and should brush my teeth and go to bed instead of fucking around with PHP.)
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As usual, your writing is informative, entertaining, and interesting. I wish you'd update the site more often. I don't even really care what you choose to write about, it can be another FF retrospective or comic books or political commentary. It's all good.
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Yeah, I'm trying to move that direction; the tags are part of that.
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The world needs more of the Falcon voiced by Lance Reddick, yes.
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Would you settle for Human Torch voiced by Bill Murray?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ibskIqoNYi4# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ibskIqoNYi4#)!
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Earth's Mightiest Heroes to be cancelled (http://www.marveltvnews.com/2012/06/06/avengers-emh-officially-cancelled-to-be-replaced-by-avengers-assemble/), to be replaced by a new series called Avengers Assemble, with a more modern/Ultimates influenced look.
Mores the pity. EMH was the first Avengers stuff I'd see that actually got me interested in the Avengers, The first season was terrific in how it bounced around the classic Marvel stories, carefully seeding future episodes while building to the larger Loki plot. But like Spectacular Spider-man, it had to be moved aside to make room for a newer one more focused on the high-profile versions of the properties.
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But like Spectacular Spider-man, it had to be moved aside to make room for a newer one more focused on the high-profile versions of the properties.
Would sure be nice if people would stop repeating that nonsense.
Spectacular was cancelled over a combination of the Disney acquisition, the 4kids bankruptcy, and a rights SNAFU with Sony.
Whereas THIS actually DOES appear to be a case of a perfectly good show getting canned due entirely to meddling from the marketing department.
That promo image is fucking hideous, but fortunately the animation's bound not to look that shiny/overmuscled.
Don't see why they couldn't just add Falcon to the current series and change Hawkeye's costume. Seeing as how they've ALREADY redesigned the Big Three in season 2 as it is.
Wonder if any of the same cast or crew are staying on.
Even if not, while this is a shame it doesn't inherently mean the new show will be awful. I know a lot of people don't like Ultimate Spider-Man, but come on -- it's got Agent Coulson as the high school principal, dream sequences teaming up Venom with Doop, and Frog Thor. I don't see what's not to love, except that, like most other TV shows, it's not Spectacular Spider-Man.
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Fine fine, the Spectacular Spider-man wasn't done in by nefarious scheming. And in truth, I bet EMH was done in by something that rhymes with "slow matings", but since they've got that updated image up I'm not surprised. And Falcon IS in this version, he just had a bit part. Of course, most of the characters who show up later start as just kind of walk-ons, so I was expecting him to join the main cast later.
As for Ultimate Spider-man, I saw the Frog Thor episode and just didn't get into it. It's well done, I like the energy and that it's about a happy Peter Parker, and the Teen Titans and B&tB influence is strong. It's got everything that should hook me in, but I just didn't go for it. I'd say I want a more serialized format, but I loved B&tB so I that's not it. I'll give it a few more chances.
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And in truth, I bet EMH was done in by something that rhymes with "slow matings"
Probably. Which is pretty fucking asinine considering, you know, they weren't airing new episodes when the Thor and Cap movies came out last year and obviously made this decision BEFORE they had time to check whether the show had gotten a significant ratings boost from the Avengers movie.
And who knows, maybe it won't be a huge rejiggering -- best case it really WILL be essentially a "season 3" with a new title.
More likely it'll be in the same "universe" as USM but with a more grim-n-gritty tone. I could get behind that too.
As for Ultimate Spider-man, I saw the Frog Thor episode and just didn't get into it. It's well done, I like the energy and that it's about a happy Peter Parker, and the Teen Titans and B&tB influence is strong. It's got everything that should hook me in, but I just didn't go for it. I'd say I want a more serialized format, but I loved B&tB so I that's not it. I'll give it a few more chances.
Well, maybe you just don't love Frog Thor as much as I do.
I'll grant it's not my favorite Marvel toon, and the later episodes haven't matched the level of the (Dini-written) opener. But I like it all right. I'd rather have SSM, but, well, spilt milk.
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And in truth, I bet EMH was done in by something that rhymes with "slow matings"
Probably.
Could also be Jeph Loeb waving his dick around.
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Sure, but, as with USM, the fact that someone wants it to happen wouldn't be enough IN AND OF ITSELF to get the existing series cancelled.
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So, funny story: that press release saying Avengers: EMH is cancelled?
Completely made up.
The site that "quoted" the made-up press release?
Run by a guy with an axe to grind.
Leastways, that's according to Bleeding Cool (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/06/19/the-boy-who-hated-ultimate-spider-man/), which itself is best taken with a grain of salt. But has anyone actually SEEN the press release?
Loeb DOES refer to a new Avengers Assemble series in a TV Guide interview (http://www.tvguide.com/News/Exclusive-Marvel-Assembles-1048788.aspx). So that gives the claims of EMH cancellation some weight. But still, no press release or official confirmation.
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oh thank god
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They need to bite the bullet and do a Marvel Animated Universe to complement, but not necessarily mirror, the film-verse they're working on now. If they can get a proper MAU up and running with a few single shows and Avengers, that would make for one hell of a block of programming, much like WB had back in the day with something like an hour and a half of DCAU programming every Saturday morning.
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I wouldn't be surprised at all if USM, AA, and Hulk all took place in the same universe. Course, USM's pretty episodic and not big on continuity anyway.
Keep in mind that 1990's Spider-Man and X-Men were in the same universe. It didn't stop them from being bad.
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Well, if you count a couple of crossover episodes, yeah, but my point was that they just need to shit or get off the pot with this thing. Either these shows are related, or they aren't. If they are, they could do some really fun stuff with it, without making the shows lose their character, or become hidebound to the idea. If they're not going to be related, stop messing with them so they can gain their footing.
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Jim Starlin fires a pretty big shot across the bow (http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/07/03/creators-rights-activists-take-note-the-great-thanos-war-is-brewing/):
This is probably one of the first concept drawings of Thanos I ever did, long before I started working at Marvel. Jack Kirby’s Metron is clearly the more dominant influence in this character’s look. Not Darkseid. Both D and T started off much smaller than they eventually became. This was one of the drawings I had in my portfolio when I was hired by Marvel. It was later inked by Rich Buckler.
Sounds like a casual, historical oh-look-at-this-neat-thing-I-stumbled-on reference, but Heidi MacDonald reads it -- and I'm inclined to agree -- as "Hey Marvel, you know that guy who you put in your billion-dollar movie and are gearing up to put in two more movies? I created him, it wasn't work-for-hire, and unlike Jack Kirby I've got proof."
Nat Gertler in the comments section says this:
We're more likely to run into the Blade situation, which ended up resting (in my not-a-lawyer understanding of the case) not on the question of whether it was work for hire, but on the question of whether the similarities between the original Blade and the movie Blade were sufficient to be infringing.
I'm inclined to agree.
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Loeb made a special point of clarifying that Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes was not cancelled, as such. He said the order was always for 52 episodes, and likened the transition to Avengers Assemble -- which is in continuity with the previous series -- to the transition of creative teams on superhero comics.
Emphasis mine.
So (1) Avengers: EMH as we know it IS ending but (2) the new series is a continuation of the previous series. How smooth the transition goes, whether the new creative team is any good, and whether the voice cast sticks around all appear to be open questions at this point.
We should be so lucky as for this to just turn out to be like Justice League becoming JLU in its third season.
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Christopher motherfucking Eccleston is Malekith the Accursed. (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/08/01/christopher-eccleston-to-play-malekith-the-accursed-in-thor-the-dark-world/)
Man, this boycott just keeps getting harder.
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Rumor: Marvel is in negotiations with Fox (http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/08/06/marvel-and-fox-playing-swapsies-for-daredevil-film-rights/) to extend the latter's Daredevil rights in exchange for getting Galactus and the Silver Surfer back.
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Would anyone even give a shit about another Daredevil movie?
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Would anyone give a shit about a Blade movie? Would anyone give a shit about an Iron Man movie?
I think someone could easily make a Daredevil movie that didn't suck -- hell, while Marvel's talking about TV series, Daredevil is probably their best possible character for THAT.
I think a Daredevil movie with a decent script and cast could do just fine.
(And the mere fact that Fox is asking for more time indicates they are in fact concerned about the quality of the movie and are hoping to do more than just crank something out to keep the rights.)
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End result:
nope.avi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14#ws)
http://www.deadline.com/2012/08/fox-insiders-no-galactus-talks-with-marvel/ (http://www.deadline.com/2012/08/fox-insiders-no-galactus-talks-with-marvel/)
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BC (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/08/06/alternative-report-says-fox-wont-trade-fantastic-four-villains-with-marvel-might-just-let-daredevil-rights-lapse/) suggests that Disney's telling one story and Fox is telling another, each to suit its own interests.
So it's a custody battle and nobody wants Daredevil.
Consensus seems to be that Galactus and Surfer fit the cosmic bent of Marvel's upcoming movies but that yes Daredevil would be their best pick for a TV series.
Good gag by a poster named Ian Coke:
'Foggy, I can't be in court tomorrow. Tonight, I have to fight undead ninja assassins.'
'Matt, I understand. But what's more important to you? Your antics as a vigilante, or our next big case?'
'I suppose one of the others could take care of the problem, maybe.'
'Exactly, Matt. Does Moon Knight have a job? Does Spider-Man? Or The Punisher?'
'I was thinking more about our paralegals.'
'Yeah ... They should be forced to go out and fight crime in the city ... it'd show a clear commitment to the firm!'
'That's not how I see things, Foggy.'
'But Matt, you can't see anything!'
It could be a show about how a superhero's better instincts are consumed, and ultimately destroyed, by the day-to-day grind of being a legal professional.
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Ha ha ha, oh wow (http://www.toplessrobot.com/2012/08/marvels_avengers_blu-ray_megaset_is_awesome_screwe.php)
Marvel was going to release a huge collection of Avengers and Avengers-related blu-rays in a replica of Nick Fury's briefcase from the film. The only problem is that Marvel only got the license to use the briefcase in the film, not make collectible copies.
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So about that TV series set in the Marvel Movie Universe: Whedon's onboard. (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/08/07/joss-whedon-signed-for-avengers-2-and-working-on-the-marvel-universe-tv-series/)
(Oh and Avengers 2 I guess.)
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In recognition of the fact that Joss Whedon is doing a new TV series, someone has started a petition to save it from being canceled (http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/08/08/the-outhousers-starts-campaign-to-save-joss-whedons-avengers-tv-show-from-cancellation/).
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So it's a custody battle and nobody wants Daredevil.
Looks like they might get him back after all. (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/MarvelFreshman/news/?a=65718)
Who knows? Maybe he could be the cornerstone for a Marvel Knights/Heroes For Hire film series.
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I still stand by the fact Iron Fist/Luke Cage action comedy buddy superhero movie would be one of the greatest things in existence.
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I still think Daredevil and Power/Fist are ideal for prime time TV.
Course, the timing of Fox letting Daredevil revert to Marvel just as Marvel's talking about a secret in-universe TV project DOES suggest that could be exactly what's happening.
My favorite idea's still a man-on-the-street show with various superhero/supervillain guest appearances, though. But anyone who's been paying attention to my favorite kinds of superhero stories over the course of the past dozen years should probably be unsurprised by that.
(I'd like to see the Daredevil and Spider-Man rights end up in the same wheelhouse someday, too. Having Ben Urich work for the NY Post instead of the Daily Bugle was lame. ...okay, it wasn't even in the top 10 lamest things about that movie, but it was still lame.)
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Of course, there's still slow development going on for a TV series based on Powers, so if it finally gets going Marvel might end up beaten to the punch. Or more likely they'll launch simultaneously like every other random big-idea coincidence that happens in showbiz.
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Guardians of the Galaxy plot synopsis (http://io9.com/5935297/guardians-of-the-galaxy-plot-synopsis-reveals-new-character-details):
"A U.S. pilot who ends up in space in the middle of a universal conflict and goes on the run with futuristic ex-cons who have something everyone wants."
I'm going to assume you're all thinkin' who I'm thinkin'.
Which would really be something -- a superhero movie with a female lead.
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Nah, US audience are about to get introduced to Carl Danvers, the powerful Mr. Marvel.
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So there's a One Shot on the Avengers bonus features that may be worth a purchase alone. Rest of the bonus features are eh. The original intro and end were interesting if only to be different.
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Peter Quill is Star-Lord and was an astronaut. Pretty sure they're still going to use him.
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Agent Coulson is alive and starring in his own television series. Suck it, fuckers. (http://io9.com/5951540/rejoice-agent-coulson-will-be-in-the-new-shield-tv-series)
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LMD.
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Don't say that, George W. Bush will start bombing us!
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Can't find a scan of the page where Thor agrees to join the Ultimates only after Bush agrees to increase the foreign aid budget, and Fury deadpans, "And to think I voted for Nader."
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Watching the new Avengers Assemble cartoon.
It's superbly awful. Every line is either a punchline or its set-up. The voices are off and animation is a bit stiff but the writing is just god damn terrible.
Why are people praising this?
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All I've seen is the pilot. It didn't do much for me but it didn't seem bad, either. I'll see how I feel when I've watched more, but I still haven't finished the last few eps of EMH, so.
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I actually watched pretty much all of EMH and was tickled absolutely retarded by it. Then that other thing that came after it was just... what the fuck ever. Thanks for reminding me that cartoons are stupid baby shit for stupid babies.
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SHIELD casts another dead guy from a Whedon movie (http://io9.com/high-res-shield-photos-include-first-your-glimpse-of-a-993613726).
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Thorested Development (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVfZAIHAruo#ws)
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Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: because Torchwood didn't have enough Whedon quips.
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On the plus side, this one doesn't seem to be written by a 13-year-old. It also has levity, which makes it a fun show compared to most of what's out there. It shows promise, and once they get past the pilot and establishing episodes, maybe things will really open up and we can see what they have in mind. And maybe, just maybe, the next episode will have actual elements of the Marvel universe in it.
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It needs fewer generic sexy young, inexplicably talented people and more Agent Coulson. And characters like Agent Coulson.
Also, wow, they really played the hell up out of the Luke Cage bait-and-switch.
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My favorite part of the show was that Jack Kirby got a creator credit right upfront.
My least favorite was the overwhelming sense that we're supposed to be rooting for Big Brother.
So fucking sick of that trope. I loved The Authority around, oh, say, 1999-2001, but Jesus Christ, it's as played as Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns at this point.
The show had a few good moments of whimsy. It, and the entire fucking genre, needs more.
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I got what I was hoping for from The Agent Phil Coulson Show Starring Clark Gregg. All those other characters who were there for some reason were pretty good for a pilot as well.
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It needs fewer generic sexy young, inexplicably talented people and more Agent Coulson. And characters like Agent Coulson.
Yeah, it really feels like someone sat down and went, "Wow, people love Coulson, let's make a show about Coulson!" without any thought as to why Coulson is popular. Not a bad show but it could have been a lot more too. Or maybe will be. Pilots are always kind of weak.
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Or possibly Coulson's inclusion was an afterthought and they started putting the show together before Gregg was onboard.
But given that this is a Whedon/Whedon/Tancharoen show, I think "network meddled with original pitch" is probably a pretty safe bet.
(You know, I never did get around to watching the original Dollhouse pilot...)
Course, I'd be happy to see it go full Steranko (who also got a credit!) and play up all the James Bond shit with some psychedelia thrown in. Course, that's up there with "Fantastic Four movie set in 1962" on my list of awesome Marvel adaptations that will never actually happen.
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Yeah, same here. Didn't much like every character that isn't Coulson.
That said, I really disliked Dollhouse at the start, and I came to really enjoy it once it got its footing, so I'll keep an eye on SHIELD.
My least favorite was the overwhelming sense that we're supposed to be rooting for Big Brother.
So fucking sick of that trope. I loved The Authority around, oh, say, 1999-2001, but Jesus Christ, it's as played as Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns at this point.
Do you mean that literally, or that you think they're going for "go you secretly rooting for an evil Orwellian organization the entire show then TWIST"?
I wasn't crazy about how they spent the majority of this episode showing how having surveillance on every street corner of the city was the only thing that stopped a bombing. I mean, I've never liked SHIELD for that reason -- it seemed like an excuse to pretend like having an enormous military with unassailable power with insight into every citizens' life would be all that stood in the way of the death of western civilization.
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That said, I really disliked Dollhouse at the start, and I came to really enjoy it once it got its footing, so I'll keep an eye on SHIELD.
Right, that's what I meant to imply with the comparison. Dollhouse took about four episodes to come around, and then BAM.
My least favorite was the overwhelming sense that we're supposed to be rooting for Big Brother.
So fucking sick of that trope. I loved The Authority around, oh, say, 1999-2001, but Jesus Christ, it's as played as Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns at this point.
Do you mean that literally, or that you think they're going for "go you secretly rooting for an evil Orwellian organization the entire show then TWIST"?
I don't know. I watched all of Alphas waiting for the episode where the nominal heroes bucked the evil organization whose job it was to disappear people without due process and stick them in a gulag, and it never came. The show did a very good job of establishing that the people who were in charge were very bad people, but never quite got past the part where the main characters did what they said anyway because they were the lesser of two evils.
(The comic book equivalent of Alphas would be if the X-Men joined up with the Sentinel Program because hey, Magneto is EVEN WORSE.)
Marvel's certainly done plots where SHIELD itself was depicted as a villain and a rogue group of operatives had to re-infiltrate it, take charge, and throw out the corrupt influences -- but I don't see that happening here. Coulson and everybody else but Hacker Lady seem perfectly okay with the idea that the organization's purpose is to spy on everybody and then swoop in with overwhelming strength. For their own good, of course.
Granted, the episode managed to twist that idea so far around in the climax that it became self-parody ([spoiler]government agent shoots dangerous but mentally unstable man in the head, but it's all right because it turns out it's actually a special bullet that helps him![/spoiler]) -- but that may be the best we can hope for.
I wasn't crazy about how they spent the majority of this episode showing how having surveillance on every street corner of the city was the only thing that stopped a bombing. I mean, I've never liked SHIELD for that reason -- it seemed like an excuse to pretend like having an enormous military with unassailable power with insight into every citizens' life would be all that stood in the way of the death of western civilization.
You know, my uncle pegged that as the most unsettling thing about Ultimate Spider-Man in its very first episode -- Fury reveals that SHIELD has the technology to negate Spider-Man's Spider Sense, and we as the audience are supposed to accept that as badass instead of terrifying.
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I never had that problem with SHIELD because if I was a normal fellow in a world full of metas and mutants I'd want the government to be doing something about it, because god damn. Civil War was supposed to be about that, but then they dropped the ball through a wormhole that turned it into an egg that fell on their faces.
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Well, the problem with Civil War was that it took place in the Marvel Universe.
In the real world, Iron Man would be absolutely right and these people need to be accountable.
In the Marvel Universe, Captain America is absolutely right; the superheroes are above suspicion and reproach and the government has repeatedly proven its tendency to send giant robots first and ask questions later.
Superpowers or not, this was a show about a government organization tracking down a guy who was dangerous but, ultimately, the victim of unethical drug experiments, and [spoiler]shooting him in the fucking head during a negotiation[/spoiler]. And, in the process, detaining an (as far as we know) ordinary, non-powered human who was recording anti-government podcasts in her van.
Course, Batman is all about a filthy-rich white guy putting on a scary costume and beating up the mentally ill. The superhero genre does not want for truly problematic subtext.
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I wasn't really specifically referring to the show as much as the organization in the MU. SHIELD generally reflects the government's desire to have some sort of control over all this madness, but failing spectacularly to actually succeed at anything other than comic book, over the top spy games. They're quite a bit more powerful in the Ultimate setting, where they're basically at the center of everything, but they still manage to fuck things up more often than not.
I haven't actually watched the pilot for the show yet, but guys, it's about SHIELD. They're not just, like, contractors for SHIELD, they're actually fucking SHIELD, so they kind of have to be shown as being in the right.
Also, the problem with Civil War was that they fucked it up by completely failing to portray both sides as equally valid (as promised), and turning Tony Stark into a "THEY SAID I WAS CRAZY" mad scientist villain, along with Reed. CLONE THOR IS PERFECTLY ETHICAL. NO I DIDN'T STOP TAKING MY MEDS. It then transitioned into being about Tony and Cap's failed marriage and then stumbled into an awkward faceplant of an ending.
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I wasn't really specifically referring to the show as much as the organization in the MU. SHIELD generally reflects the government's desire to have some sort of control over all this madness, but failing spectacularly to actually succeed at anything other than comic book, over the top spy games.
Fair enough, in the current century. I think it hewed closer to the crazy sci-fi spy genre back in the past century, and particularly in its Steranko heyday. I don't think I have to say which version I prefer.
They're quite a bit more powerful in the Ultimate setting, where they're basically at the center of everything, but they still manage to fuck things up more often than not.
And of course the film universe is an often-awkward sort of hybrid between the two. The designs are mostly Hitch or Hitch-influenced (except Iron Man, which is pure Granov), while the characters and their origins are closer to their Kirby/Lee/et al incarnations. It's an attempt to reconcile the aspirational, if flawed, heroes of the 1960's with more modern, grim-'n'-gritty sensibilities, and the SHIELD series, by going ground-level, makes that awkward contradiction all the plainer. The climax of the episode has one character talking about how terrifying it is to have actual gods walking the Earth and hitting aliens with hammers and seriously, how the hell is one man supposed to feel like he can do anything; Coulson responds that they don't do what they do because of their gifts, they do it because of the kind of people they are.
(Which reminds me of something Evanier has often said about Kirby: "You will probably never be able to draw like him, but you do have the ability to work as hard as he did.")
It really didn't work for me. But I appreciate the effort.
I haven't actually watched the pilot for the show yet, but guys, it's about SHIELD. They're not just, like, contractors for SHIELD, they're actually fucking SHIELD, so they kind of have to be shown as being in the right.
Well yes, that's it exactly -- so if they're depicted as being Big Brother, then ipso facto Big Brother has to be shown as being in the right.
The question then becomes, is it possible at all to depict a covert government organization in 2013 without showing it spying on its citizens and violating their fundamental rights?
My answer is yes, it is, IF you're doing escapist fantasy.
They don't need to make any statement at all about current events or the modern surveillance state, but they've chosen to wade into it. And while one character pretty effectively calls out how terrifying this all is, she comes around by the end of the episode and realizes they're the good guys.
Now, it's entirely possible she'll continue to be a voice of protest throughout the show, try to reform them from the inside -- possibly even play the kind of role that Green Arrow did on JLU. That would be great! But judging by the pilot alone, the whole thing's pretty disquieting and fuck no I do not consider SHIELD to be in the right and find it deeply problematic that the writers/producers/network think I SHOULD after that hour.
Also, the problem with Civil War was that they fucked it up by completely failing to portray both sides as equally valid (as promised), and turning Tony Stark into a "THEY SAID I WAS CRAZY" mad scientist villain, along with Reed. CLONE THOR IS PERFECTLY ETHICAL. NO I DIDN'T STOP TAKING MY MEDS. It then transitioned into being about Tony and Cap's failed marriage and then stumbled into an awkward faceplant of an ending.
Yeah, Tony and Reed really didn't come off well and the whole Clone Thor thing was just bonkers. But I still think the premise is flawed from the start, at least as set in the Marvel Universe -- the premise of a Registration Act would work fine in the Ultimate Universe, though the UU would have its own problems with the story (mainly, too small a cast to make for much of a Civil War, and a much harder case for who would be on the anti-registration side -- as Millar himself noted, Ultimate Cap would definitely be pro-).
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Nah, I don't think the premise is inherently flawed for the main MU. It's basically been the backdrop for the X-Men since day 1, and the biggest problem with that has always been "Why just mutants? Why not all these freaks?", which Civil War set out to answer. The problem, as I said, is just that they fucked it up. It's easy to believe that rational minded, non-evil characters would be totally on board with Registration, and equally so that others wouldn't, and this being professional wrestling, I mean cape comics, they'd have to settle it with a big fight. Unfortunately the most memorable thing that actually came out of the cluster fuck they actually delivered is OMD/BND. SO THAT WENT WELL.
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The problem, as I said, is just that they fucked it up.
I'll say. They never actually defined what the parameters of the Registration Act were, so in one book, you'd have a fairly reasonable (but debatable) set of laws while in another, they'd be OBEY OR DIE. I maintain that Marvel should have had one of their lawyers draft up a document that writers could work around. Even if it was a flimsy one, there would be at least some consistency.
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Nah, I don't think the premise is inherently flawed for the main MU. It's basically been the backdrop for the X-Men since day 1
Ah, but now you've hit another of the contradictions of shared-universe superhero comics: yes, we like that these characters all exist in the same place and interact with each other, but if you think about it too hard the entire thing starts to unravel. Why doesn't the Justice League just go in and fix up Gotham City? Because that would be messing with Batman's cake (http://www.digitalspy.com/comics/news/a385421/kurt-busiek-discusses-batmans-cake.html?rss).
A premise that works for the X-Men doesn't necessarily make sense for the rest of the Marvel Universe. It doesn't even necessarily make sense for the X-Men.
After fifty years it's pretty hard to swallow the "people don't trust these guys" idea, even with heavyhanded racist metaphors and the occasional clone or mind control incident ruining someone's reputation. I like to think that Jameson's pretty much the only guy who doesn't trust Spider-Man at this point and everybody else is just laughing at him; not only does that make the most sense given how thoroughly Spidey's proven himself at this point, it's also funnier that way.
Unfortunately the most memorable thing that actually came out of the cluster fuck they actually delivered is OMD/BND. SO THAT WENT WELL.
BND actually did go pretty well.
I'll say. They never actually defined what the parameters of the Registration Act were, so in one book, you'd have a fairly reasonable (but debatable) set of laws while in another, they'd be OBEY OR DIE. I maintain that Marvel should have had one of their lawyers draft up a document that writers could work around. Even if it was a flimsy one, there would be at least some consistency.
Continuity was a HUGE fucking problem in Civil War, and usually is in events of that size, but starting to actually examine legal reasoning is one more thing that makes the whole thing unravel. I'm certainly not the first person to point out that Captain America would have been much better off arguing his case in court than with punching.
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I liked the second episode a lot better than the first -- not only does SHIELD do some stuff that's actually heroic (including [spoiler]shooting the doomsday weapon out into space instead of keeping it for themselves[/spoiler] -- can't imagine THAT could have any repercussions), but the episode was centered around Coulson and why he's so likable: ultimately, because he's an optimist; he's a guy who cares about stuff. They managed to pull off the "heroes try to save the villains" cliche and actually make me FEEL something besides annoyance at it.
And sure, the bits where characters engaged in annoying, corny arguments with each other tended to drag the whole thing down -- but you know what? That's what Marvel IS. Mismatched teams of misfits who don't work well with others, bitching at each other. I don't think those scenes quite lived up to the high standard of subtle, naturalistic dialogue set by Stan Lee, but maybe someday.
Oh, and [spoiler]Nick Fury? Total hypocrite. Like he never explosively decompressed a cabin to get some motherfuckin' snakes off a motherfuckin' plane before.[/spoiler]
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[spoiler]shooting him in the fucking head during a negotiation[/spoiler].
[spoiler]... with the cure. They shot him with the cure that kept him from exploding[/spoiler]
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(http://31.media.tumblr.com/0752f64f27a5cea75e553f0234b9a5f8/tumblr_mgj6r6471e1qg47ego1_500.gif)
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[spoiler]shooting him in the fucking head during a negotiation[/spoiler].
[spoiler]... with the cure. They shot him with the cure that kept him from exploding[/spoiler]
Yes, thank you.
Granted, the episode managed to twist that idea so far around in the climax that it became self-parody ([spoiler]government agent shoots dangerous but mentally unstable man in the head, but it's all right because it turns out it's actually a special bullet that helps him![/spoiler]) -- but that may be the best we can hope for.
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yeah, the ending only seemed to go down that way for the sole purpose of making you think that the guy had just been shot by a real bullet. One of the characters saying "Hey, we have the antidote to your condition" and then administering it in a consensual fashion was not an option because it wasn't as dramatic. It's really like the writers arrived at "Shoot him with cure bullet" and then tired to create a scenario where that fit, but when they couldn't they just said "Fuck it' and shot him with the cure bullet anyway.
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It was weird that it was to his head, yeah. Like... no matter how good your cure is, it still bore its way into his brain right there.
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Nice:
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is like doing a Lord of the Rings TV show where the characters are not allowed to mention Frodo, orcs, the ring, Sauron, elves, dwarves, Aragon, Gandalf or magic; and every episode, the main characters fight a different gang of human bandits
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That would be a good analogy if the very first fucking shot of the show in question was kids looking at Gandalf and Frodo action figures.
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Or if they didn't mention Sauron like three times an episode but talked about "that big damn glowing eye".
Also, episode three was probably the most fun one so far. Still not GREAT tv, but good tv.
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Marvel strikes deal to create Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Power Man and Iron Fist shows for Netflix (http://comicsbeat.com/marvelnetflix-to-launch-daredevil-jessica-jones-power-man-and-iron-fist-shows/)
Still has not announced plans to put elements of the Marvel universe in a network TV show.
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I'm going to have to assume that's because the networks have spent the past decade saying No. How long have they been trying to get Jessica Jones on the air?
Still, people have been saying street-level heroes -- and these characters in particular -- are perfect for a TV series, and I'm inclined to agree.
And hey, for 50% of them I even get to be offended that they're stiffing creators BESIDES Jack Kirby! And for the remaining 25%, I bet the creators actually get a cut!
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Nice:
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is like doing a Lord of the Rings TV show where the characters are not allowed to mention Frodo, orcs, the ring, Sauron, elves, dwarves, Aragon, Gandalf or magic; and every episode, the main characters fight a different gang of human bandits
That would be a good analogy if the very first fucking shot of the show in question was kids looking at Gandalf and Frodo action figures.
And then the week after the new movie came out did an episode that may as well just be 44 straight minutes of a giant billboard flashing "GO SEE THE HOBBIT: THE DESOLATION OF SMAUG! NOW IN THEATERS!"
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Yeah, the HEY FOR THE REAL STORY HERE COME ON DOWN TO YOUR LOCAL THEATER AND SEE TV'S "THE THOR" IN HIS NEW FEATURE-LENGTH FEATURE, "THE THOR: TWO“ NOW IN THEATERS AND I M A X thing has readily made it so I can probably never take this show even remotely seriously ever again. I mean I knew something like this was coming but this is a freaking 25 minute commercial.
God dammit, Joss Weadon.
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Wow, so they've taken one of the most obnoxious problems with comics and transplanted it into the moving pictures.
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I probably could have forgiven it more if they had actually done a AND HERE'S OUR BUDDY, THOR! THANKS FOR HELPING US FOR 10 MINUTES, THOR! or something.
It's hard to be too mad at Peter MacNicol being in an episode though.
Also given that the next time this can happen will be during Captain America 2 which looks to be entirely about WELL, FUCK SHIELD at least that will probably be more interesting.
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Maybe I read so many comics I'm numb to shameless cross-promotion, but I liked the episode. I liked MacNicol, I liked the Berserker Staff and how it effected humans. For all the complaints you guys had about this not being comic booky enough, this is pretty god damned comic booky, and I enjoyed it.
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Wow, so they've taken one of the most obnoxious problems with comics and transplanted it into the moving pictures.
Yeah, it really did remind me of that old '60's-era Spider-Man Annual where he keeps just running into people like Daredevil, Ant-Man and the Wasp, and Dr. Strange while going around New York, and each time a footnote shows up and tells you to read their book.
It's hard to be too mad at Peter MacNicol being in an episode though.
MacNicol was definitely the highlight. He makes everything better.
Maybe I read so many comics I'm numb to shameless cross-promotion, but I liked the episode. I liked MacNicol, I liked the Berserker Staff and how it effected humans. For all the complaints you guys had about this not being comic booky enough, this is pretty god damned comic booky, and I enjoyed it.
And it's nice that they finally hung a lampshade on the show's resemblance to Alphas by just having one of the actors from that show show up.
And speaking of lampshades, I remarked on the similarity betwen "It's a magical place" and [spoiler]"Did I fall asleep?" - "For a little while."[/spoiler] weeks ago.
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Welp. Think I'm done with Shield.
This latest one brought back one of the most bland, charmless characters in the show's history and revolved an impossibly cliche story around him, then cut off on a cliffhanger and previewed another two or three episodes of the same arc. I reeeeally could not care less about a rogue group making their own super soldiers.
I guess the big thing is that I don't see any surprises here, or in the foreseeable future.
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Yeah, I was keeping tabs on the show by reading reviews at the AVClub and ComicsAlliance to see if anything developed, now I don't even have the energy to do that. Blandness just seeps into the skin of the show, so deep that it's even wrecking Gregg Clark's Agent Coulson. Unless this show can someone turn itself around, it'll be remember as how to take a good premise from a popular series of movies with a good production team and just ruin it. They seemed afraid of sticking many actual Marvel elements, except for occasional set-dressing and to do promotional work for Big Movie Event X or whatever. Such promise, scuttled by tepid commitment.
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And that's without even getting into the strong fascist undertones.
Who would have figured Arrow would be a better show than SHIELD?
Arrow's biggest problem at the moment is it seems to be suffering from an identity crisis (joke about Jean Loring joining the cast goes here, I don't have the energy). The mandate for the season, as set up in the new opening narration, is that Ollie's not supposed to be the grim-'n'-gritty murdering vigilante he was in season 1, he's turning into more of a traditional superhero. And while they've stopped short of boxing gloves, they have actually used the phrase "trick arrows". There's a real sense here that they're trying to make superheroes aspirational instead of grimdark again.
The trouble is that half the writers seem not to have gotten the memo, and he still keeps straight-up murdering dudes like every other episode, in-between talking about how he's not actually a murderer. And last week he just straight-up put an arrow through Roy's leg, to "protect" him.
I sure did like Barry, though; when they weren't walking through his stupid new Geoff Johns Batman MY PARENTS ARE DEEEEEEEEEEAD (and/or incarcerated) Origin Story they tended to remember that he's actually supposed to be a lot of fun. So I'm actually starting to get my hopes up for the Flash spinoff.
Now, giving Jim Gordon his own series set before Batman comes to Gotham is a dumb idea, for reasons already covered by Chris Sims (http://comicsalliance.com/gordon-fox-television-batman-gotham-city-dc/) (tl;dr you either have a real downer of a show where Gordon gets his ass kicked every week and constantly loses, or you depict a Gotham PD that can take care of the problems in the city all by itself and UNDERMINE THE ENTIRE PREMISE OF BATMAN). But it still might be better than SHIELD.
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http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/features/exclusive-early-test-footage-of-paul-rudd-in-the-ant-man-suit.php (http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/features/exclusive-early-test-footage-of-paul-rudd-in-the-ant-man-suit.php)
this is really happening
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http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/features/exclusive-early-test-footage-of-paul-rudd-in-the-ant-man-suit.php (http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/features/exclusive-early-test-footage-of-paul-rudd-in-the-ant-man-suit.php)
this is really happening
Man, ever since the battle at the end of Role Models, I've been waiting for Rudd to get the recognition and the quality parts he deserves. This is a good step in that direction.
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Finally saw Captain America the other day, on my friend's new Netflix subscription.
I love, love, loved that movie. I wasn't expecting to like it, but oh god, it was a delight.
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Captain America feels like Joe Johnston finally got a second shot at making The Rocketeer a success. Because the only thing better than having The Rocketeer in this world is having two of them.
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So who here is (still) watching Agents of SHIELD? Because I don't, not really, but my family is a big fan, so I catch an ep over dinner every now and then. Anyway, what did y'all think about this week's reveal? Or should I say, "reveal", given that the show didn't actually reveal SPOILER WARNING SPOILER ALERT SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER that Coulson is now an Asgardian robot OKAY SPOILERS ARE OVER YOU CAN GO HOME NOW
I personally think the show suffers too much from being bland. (wow, what a new thought!) I mean, I guess I'm not the best judge here, since I don't really pay attention re: dinner, but isn't that kind of the problem here? Let me list the things I remember from last night's episode:
- That one dude talking to that one Asian lady
- I guess the guys with the British and Irish accents said stuff as well
- The top brass doesn't like the team's plan for figuring out where Coulson was, but tough beans, cuz they're right!
- This one chick who works for the bad guys convincing Coulson to let her look at his brain with amazing brain technology. He goes with her because who wouldn't want to know the mystery that's been doled out in tiny patches so far
- The show becomes a car commercial for a while, and then Skye walks out of it into a creepy landscape full of burnt-out houses and mannequins and shit. I think she gets ganked here? Or possibly someone else gets ganked, I don't recall
- Coulson has some zany hallucinations
- Oh yeah, and [spoiler]turns out he was BRAIN-ZAPPED! In a regular ol' (well actually it looked pretty high-tech) medical lab, not Taihiti.[/spoiler] I'm spoilering this because it's the most interesting thing in this episode
- After that last bit, I sorta figured they revealed Coulson was a Robot/LMD/Alien/Zombie/Teenage Frankenstein/Doombot at the end, but from the reviews I've read, I'm guessing they didn't. Shame.
I was frankly more captivated by the fifteen minutes I caught of Psych this evening than anything in this episode, even the [spoiler]BRAIN-ZAPPAGE[/SPOILER]. It feels like the writers are flippin' terrified of doing anything that could be considered even the least bit weird or not exactly "normal" television, and I mostly got into superheroes for the weird junk, sooooo... Come to think of it, that's probably why that spoilered bit sticks out so much for me. Really the show resembles nothing so much as the boring junk I imagined all superhero comics to be before I actually read some superhero comics. It's too bad that ABC's big comic book show is afraid to be really comic-booky, but I enjoy reading reviews and reactions online more than the show itself, really, so I guess it works out for me in the end.
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Shit, I watched SHIELD when I could have been watching a new Psych instead?
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On another board there's an obnoxious guy who posted about that episode's reveal and was all "I waited for this?".
Everybody else who replied answered on some variation of "Oh. I just realized I'd already forgotten that show existed."
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Shit, I watched SHIELD when I could have been watching a new Psych instead?
Psych was on Wednesday! SHIELD and Psych are on two different nights. So you could have watched both! Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
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No, I understand. But I had both of them downloaded and clearly chose the wrong one to prioritize.
Psych was pretty good! It had Vinny Jones.