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Author Topic: Dota 2  (Read 5081 times)

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Doom

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2012, 07:50:50 AM »

I wonder when they'll burn the HoN servers to the ground.

Achievements? Hol-eeeee shiiiiiiiit.
Locked achievements? Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Haha yeah the interface is pretty gross but everything else feels really fluid and solid.

First Game: 14/6/13 as Tide Hunter NOTHING NEW HERE HEH.

I mean when I say the interface is gross I guess it's still a beta, it's just really weird to find a match, right? You sit there and look for players like normal, but then you need all ten to hit "ready" and then it checks to see if they load properly and after 3-5 attempts that are 1-3 minutes long each you have ten people who aren't playing the game on a toaster connected to phone lines by twine and it loads the full game map and then it tosses you into a character select screen.

The sort of thing I hope is a place holder.

But then you have stuff like the shop that is a work of art, using the stash felt good. Also the graphical style and presentation and atmosphere is gorgeous, none of that HoN-syndrome where you can't tell what the fuck is going on. Even the little visual impacts and the symbols that pop up and the timers for stuns and your screen-shaking as the Spirit Breaker works you over feels great, like you're in an actual fight and can still influence your actions and shit in the middle of a CC-train.
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Rico

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2012, 01:01:33 PM »

I have the opposite opinion about the graphics. HoN can certainly get a little busy during a team fight, but DotA 2 has a couple of really big problems in its graphical presentation right now: In what I can only assume is meant to be a throwback to DotA because that makes it only very slightly less retarded, the physical scale of some heroes (Dark Seer pops immediately to mind) is too small and/or their visual style is too close to a creep that it is difficult to pick them out in a team fight.

Abilities and their effects can seem very disconnected, and sometimes hard to track in team fights. Lich's ult in DotA 2 is a little ball that bounces around. It looks completely non-threatening and the effect gets lost easily, despite it being one of the strongest spells in the game. Plague Rider ult's trail and sound effects immediately make the power of the spell apparent and the progress of it during a team fight is very easy to track (making it much easier to do the most important thing: Swear like a sailor at the dumb guy that leads it right towards you when you've already gotten away).
 
Another example is Lina v. Pyromancer. Even with remastered graphics (I do like the scorched ground effect), the cast animation is pretty lame (why the hell is it shooting out from her spine?) and there is absolutely no indication other than healthbar that Sven is even touched by it (and the graphic doesn't match the cone). Now in this clip, even though the video quality is awful, you can still see the difference. The spell is actually being cast by the hero, and the impacted heroes have a short-lived orange glow. Shadow Priest just has a bunch of purple swirls going on all the time. I know each of the hero's abilities but it's still not always apparent what he's doing at any given time. Demented Shaman's slow in HoN has a constricting vine effect, his heal is heal-colored and the visual bounce is clearer, etc..

I do really like the stash interface for picking up items, but there is no way or at least no clear way to use it for storage without anything in it already. Why does the outpost have two pages instead of a scroll? I don't like the regular shop at all either but I'm willing to chalk that up to familiarity.

There's plenty of good in DotA 2 visuals, but the combination of the input delay and lack of good spell feedback in most cases makes it awkward to play. I played a bunch of it (and still do occasionally) when I wasn't playing HoN at all so it's not a switching back and forth or adjusting thing, and while it was a fun experiment, I was not very convinced. The real test for the game will be where it goes after it's finished porting DotA whole hog.
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Shinra

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2012, 02:49:15 PM »

holy shit this game is so different from LoL that it is really hard to believe they're even the same genre. :( I need an adult, this is really hard and confusing.
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Defenestration

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2012, 12:09:30 PM »

So did you new people that just got invites play much at all? The normal group that plays suddenly lost interest in DotA (and it's my fault entirely! :rage:)
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Doom

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2012, 06:08:02 AM »

I find it terribly clownish to not have a Surrender option in a MOBA in the year 2012.
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Defenestration

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2012, 06:24:14 AM »

Beta is beta etc. Price you pay for early access!
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Rico

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2012, 09:08:04 AM »

I've seen a number of fairly credible references to it being intentional, but they all reference non-public forums, so it's a little questionable and may change anyway. The reasoning is that "Comebacks happen so we don't want to instill a defeatist attitude" or something like that, completely ignoring that there are any number of sensible conditions that could have to occur before the concede feature unlocks.

That and if your goal is to make a game for people to enjoy you should probably not completely discount that a significant portion if your playerbase is unlikely to enjoy wasting 10-50 minutes per game for maybe a 1/10 shot that the other team will screw up enough to allow a comeback.
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Shinra

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2012, 11:53:31 AM »

I've poked around on the dev forums and the core testers are all opposed to putting in a concede option. HoN and occasionally LoL are used as examples of why concede is a bad idea, except aren't both of those games actually relatively balanced? Considering how wildly out of control carries seem to scale in DotA2, it seems that once a carry gets to around 7-8 kills in the early game they can 1v5 an entire team. You eventually reach a point where recovery is an impossible goal. So if your team makes some exceptionally retarded mistakes (which will happen often, it is a moba after all) your game can conceivably be over in the first 12 minutes. But if the other team wants to farm up their full item sets, you might be stuck for an hour. Encouraging people to idle at the fountain is a bad gameplay mechanic.

edit: i also want to point out, I know they're trying to perfectly replicate DotA's feel and gameplay, but they are intentionally reviving bugs and horrible inadequacies from Warcraft 3. Heroes getting stuck on the environment, heroes not responding to input, input delays, heroes taking input from other players in the game, etc. Hell, just the size and responsiveness of minimap clicks is enough to give me an aneurism. I'll be trying to escape, get a pixel too close to the minimap and suddenly my hero will whirl around and run right into the enemy team. How about when I'm trying to last hit and my hero keeps RUNNING INTO THE CREEPS UNTIL I HIT 'H', a command that is COMPLETELY undocumented in the interface because they expect you to remember that this is how units moved in Warcraft III! This is fucking stupid design and it is shocking to me that Valve is allowing a game being branded under their name to commit so many sins of game design for the sake of 'keeping the feel' of a game that is older than both of my teenage sisters.
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Rico

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2012, 12:16:20 PM »

The hard-coded input delay is probably the worst, but I'd blocked out DotA staples like losing hero control and such. That reminds me to see whether Blink Dagger is a purchasable item on Pudge!

But yeah, that's really the thing about DotA comebacks. You can be really far behind and come back, but it relies on some combination of your line-up, the enemy team line-up, who has the kills on both teams, and a couple more before even getting to the important one: Can you get the idiots on your team to actually respond correctly even if every comeback point is in your favor? It was one thing in DotA when you had no leave protection (and leaving sucks!), but if DotA 2 keeps having leaver protection but doesn't have concede that's kind of unconscionable. There is no real reason that if 4 or 5 people on the same team don't think they can win, or think they can but would rather just start off fresh instead of grinding their face trying to dig up, stupid! that they should not be able to just stop playing with no penalty other than the loss.
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Ziiro

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2012, 12:33:26 PM »

I've had a serious issue with completely losing hero control. I get an error message of "Command queue full" and my character proceeds to walk up and autoattack the nearest enemy until I'm dead. I sometimes regain control, but at that point I'm nearly dead anyway.

This generally happens when walking back from the base to the lane and issuing the commands from the base at the creep line - the only thing I can logically figure out that might be causing this is giving too many commands to a unit before it has the ability to finish them.. But that wouldn't make any sense, why is it queuing my commands if when I give a new one, it's meant to replace the old one?

Alternative theory: Leveling up an ability after queuing up the old one may be doing it.
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Shinra

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2012, 01:19:08 PM »

I am pretty sure it has something to do with them trying to replicate the way heroes operated in Warcraft 3. Because limitations of a decade and a half year old engine are "charming".
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Bal

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2012, 03:01:26 AM »

Two tickets to ride the Dota train to whomever wants them.
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Niku

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2012, 03:33:50 AM »

I'll take one if you've got 'em.  I don't have a lot of interest in playing it so much as I'd like to be able to spectate though, so if people actually want to play the game be my guest.
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Bal

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2012, 03:58:15 AM »

Sent. One remaining.
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Defenestration

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2012, 05:15:31 AM »

I have another two, if anyone cares.

I kind of don't after learning that Icefrog felt "very strongly" about not including a concede vote.
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Joxam

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #75 on: March 24, 2012, 10:44:34 AM »

If you still have one left man I'll take one.
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Zaratustra

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #76 on: March 24, 2012, 03:38:27 PM »

I would like one too :(

Defenestration

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #77 on: April 08, 2012, 05:19:43 PM »

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James Edward Smith

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #78 on: April 08, 2012, 06:38:18 PM »

More like Dota 4: Abdul Ismael's Revenge.

am I rite?

Btw, O-yoroi Gauntlet alternate avatar released in HoN last week? Ahhhhh-MAZING.
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Ziiro

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Re: Dota 2
« Reply #79 on: May 03, 2012, 11:50:14 AM »

Dota 2 Phantom Lancer

Welp, 'bout time to reinstall the ol' Dota 2.
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