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Author Topic: Culture Wars  (Read 73433 times)

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Brentai

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #760 on: January 16, 2013, 01:27:17 PM »

Another survey, released on Monday by the Pew Research Center, found that most Americans -- 64 percent -- favor putting armed guards or police officers in more schools.

I... okay.  I know these "I'm moving to Canada" reactions are passe, but speaking honestly... if I were to have a child, I would have serious, actual doubts about raising it in this country, in this day and age.
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Zaratustra

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #761 on: January 16, 2013, 05:05:23 PM »

Quote
Should every individual have a right to employment?
Make the case where society benefits from ensuring accommodations to keep someone blind, deaf, and with an IQ of 40, employed.

market for novelty doorstops

Disposable Ninja

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #762 on: January 16, 2013, 05:45:36 PM »

Quote
Should every individual have a right to employment?
Make the case where society benefits from ensuring accommodations to keep someone blind, deaf, and with an IQ of 40, employed.

So... are you legit asking this question or are you playing libertarian asshole?

Because I mean, obviously, the subtext of the question is: Is every individual entitled to a basic standard of living, and therein a right to live? If a person is not able to maintain, or rather not allowed to maintain, for themselves said standard, and it cannot be provided for them by others (such as the government), then according to libertarian logic they have no right to live.
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Royal☭

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #763 on: January 16, 2013, 05:57:08 PM »

Parsing the "every" as "every single living human, regardless of age or ability" instead of "every able person" is a pretty libertarian thing, really.

sei

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #764 on: January 17, 2013, 01:36:25 PM »

Quote
Should every individual have a right to employment?
Make the case where society benefits from ensuring accommodations to keep someone blind, deaf, and with an IQ of 40, employed.

So... are you legit asking this question or are you playing libertarian asshole?
Legit question. Let's call the disabled person Santorum.

I can see some case for providing Santorum with food and board. What I can't see is hiring other people to provide accommodations to keep an extreme case like Santorum in actual employ.

University assistance for an otherwise normal person who is deaf or blind has net societal benefit; they can contribute to society. Santorum can't, without more cost invested than output he can provide.

Because I mean, obviously, the subtext of the question is: Is every individual entitled to a basic standard of living, and therein a right to live? If a person is not able to maintain, or rather not allowed to maintain, for themselves said standard, and it cannot be provided for them by others (such as the government), then according to libertarian logic they have no right to live.
The distinction between (a) feeding/boarding Santorum and (b) hiring people to translate his personal work training program into Braille, putting in more accessibility accommodations, etc. financially relevant. I am not presently contesting his right to live.

Follow up: what do people have a right to bring into the world? If a baby is screened and will have severe disabilities, then what?
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TA

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #765 on: January 17, 2013, 02:04:05 PM »

We are not going to debate eugenics with you.
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Ted Belmont

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #766 on: January 17, 2013, 02:15:22 PM »

So uhhh

Protection For Obama's Kids, Gun-Free Zones For Ours?

This is a real ad. It is not satire.

:fukit:
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Disposable Ninja

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #767 on: January 17, 2013, 03:01:51 PM »

pointless-ass god damned hypothetical bullshit

the argument is not about whether hiring vegetables is a viable business practice.

the argument is whether every individual has a right to employment, and what that means. If an individual has no right to employment, then what does that leave them? If you have no right to acquire money, what the fuck can you do? You can't buy food, medicine, shelter, clothing, let alone can you support a family. You are literally left with nothing, not even the most basic items to sustain your life. You, by definition of not having a right to employment, have no right to live.

If the only way your hypothetical-ass vegetable can stay alive is to work, and if no one can hire him, you sure as fuck are contesting whether or not he has a right to live.
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sei

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #768 on: January 17, 2013, 03:39:06 PM »

Programs like SSI and disability require (or constitute) employment?

The gist here is that if a system supports something, it needs to set limitations to stay buoyant.

Though I think we can all agree, here, that semite bankers are the real enemy.
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Mongrel

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #769 on: January 17, 2013, 04:02:17 PM »

Though I think we can all agree, here, that semite bankers are the real enemy.

those are the guys who make the semtex, right?

(am I doing this right?)
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sei

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #770 on: January 17, 2013, 04:06:46 PM »

(no, it needs more hate or they can't feel offended)
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Classic

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #772 on: January 23, 2013, 06:00:49 PM »

God and money are two unrelated things Rico.

EDIT:
Yes, this is Classic being mortified.
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Brentai

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #773 on: January 23, 2013, 06:23:21 PM »

As unfortunate as it is for the victims of this wholly predictable clusterfuck, I support their defense on two bases:

1. It is legally accurate.
2. It implies, correctly, the the organization did NOT consider the fetuses to be people, did NOT treat them at all like people, and is NOT in any way, shape or form responsible for protecting them.

We can now proceed without operating under the idea that the "life" of an unborn non-person is at all relevant or of any damn concern of theirs.
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Mongrel

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #774 on: January 23, 2013, 08:21:58 PM »

FWIW, they're still liable for the woman's death. Adding the children magnifies the tragedy, but removing them doesn't make it not a tragedy.
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Rico

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #775 on: January 23, 2013, 09:32:17 PM »

Well, not really. The argument isn't that they could have saved the woman, it's that they could have saved the children.
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Mongrel

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #776 on: January 23, 2013, 09:45:00 PM »

Huh, I suppose that's not really spelled out clearly in the article. Especially when they seem to implicate the doctor overall stating he never replied to a page. But I can see where that's the argument.
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Brentai

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #777 on: January 23, 2013, 10:15:03 PM »

They're not held liable for the death of the woman because of the opinion that she couldn't have been saved anyway, they're only charged with the death of the infants, to which they are countering that no, you can't hold them legally liable if the infants have not been granted personhood, which is true and is exactly the sort of thing they have been trying to change.

This is all well and good except for three unsettling aspects of the case:

1. The fetuses died due to unexplained negligence on the part of a resident physician.
2. Neither the physician, the hospital nor the NPO running the hospital has made any sort of statement about it.
3. There is no evidence that the organization plans to be held liable, financially or morally, outside of the legal system, or to make any sort of reparations.

Basically, they don't seem to be making the "we should be responsible even though we are not legally responsible" argument (which would be the position of somebody who cared), they seem to be making the "we should be responsible, but because you haven't made us legally responsible, we refuse to take any responsibility whatsoever" argument.  It's half going-down-to-the-opponent's-level and half convenient wriggling, and generally it's being a bunch of cocks about the fact that they just killed two children.

It's odd, if not too surprising, behavior from people who proclaim to hold the rule of God higher than the rule of law, but it also draws into sharp focus the organization's priorities.  The first priority is dictating a policy; a distant second priority is actually holding sacred the lives of unborn children.  And when I say distant, I mean "failing to take a number of actions that any other medical organization, liberal or conservative, wouldn't have had to think twice about".
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TA

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #778 on: January 24, 2013, 12:51:35 AM »

Except you can too be held liable for the termination of fetuses against the wishes of the parents.  It's not murder, because they're not people, but it's not not a crime.
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Büge

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #779 on: January 24, 2013, 08:23:48 AM »

It's odd, if not too surprising, behavior from people who proclaim to hold the rule of God higher than the rule of law, but it also draws into sharp focus the organization's priorities.

Do Catholic doctors not take the Hippocratic oath? Because it seems to me that voluntarily swearing that you'll put the life of your patient before your own is a pretty damn big deal.

Or does the fact that you swear to a pagan god somehow invalidate it?
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