Brontoforumus Archive

Discussion Boards => Thaddeus Boyd's Panel of Death => Topic started by: Thad on March 21, 2012, 08:54:38 AM

Title: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on March 21, 2012, 08:54:38 AM
So, okay.  If you're following the news even a little you've probably heard the Trayvon Martin (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0320/Trayvon-Martin-case-use-of-Stand-Your-Ground-law-or-pursuit-of-a-black-teen) story.

I know I have my biases.  So I try not to rush to judgement.  Maybe there's more to this story, maybe it's not what it seems.

But here's what we know, for a fact, and what is not being disputed:

A guy shot an unarmed 17-year-old, after being told by a 911 operator not to engage him, and was not arrested for it.

I really can't think of any set of extenuating circumstances that would make that okay.  And yeah, it's pretty fucking hard to escape the conclusion that Martin's race had something to do with it.

And we talked about this awhile back, when the Stand Your Ground laws became trendy -- they invite precisely this sort of shit.  They're an excuse to shoot somebody on completely spurious grounds because you feel "intimidated" -- and yeah, I happen to think "intimidated" is a code word.

Personal anecdote: I've got a cousin who's biracial.  He's the sweetest, most unassuming kid you'll ever meet; I've known him all his life and I've never heard him say an unkind word or raise his voice.  And he LOOKS unassuming; he's medium height, doesn't swagger, and looks skinny.  (He's actually not; he's on the swim team and the boy is ripped.  But you wouldn't know it from seeing him in a T-shirt and jeans.)

Anyhow, about three years back -- he'd have been 15 or so -- we took him to a concert, and on the train ride there he bumped into somebody.  Because, you know, it's a train and you sometimes accidentally bump into people.

He immediately apologized but the guy got aggressive, like he wanted to start something.  He was bigger, and looked a few years older than my cousin (probably late high school/early college).

And I can't for the life of me see any other reason why he would have reacted that way except that my cousin is black.  (And, presumably, because he didn't realize the three people standing by him were his family and it was perhaps not advisable to pull the tough-guy act under those odds.  But of course the reason he didn't realize we were his family is, again, because of his race.)

So yeah, speaking of my biases, that's where my mind goes in situations like this.  My cousin -- who's about as far from a Scary Black Man stereotype as you can get -- has to deal with this shit on a regular basis, has to deal with people who get twitchy just because of the color of his skin.

And maybe that's not what happened here.  Maybe this guy shot an unarmed 17-year-old for some reason OTHER than his race.  Maybe race played no part, conscious or otherwise, in his motivation.

But that's frankly hard to believe.  And it's even harder to believe that if it had been a black man shooting an unarmed white 17-year-old that the police would have just sent him home.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on March 21, 2012, 10:29:48 AM
Considering all the accounts of police pressing witnesses to change their testimony and the infamous 911 tapes where Zimmerman follows the kid despite police correcting him not to and then Trayvon begging for help/his life before a second shot is fired, it's really hard to look at this case objectively.

Chalk in the fact that Zimmerman is a certified busy-body loony(he called the police dozens of times, if not more) and it really does seem like HE AMERICAN, HE OWN GUN, HE USE GUN retardation.

I also hear Zimmerman is Hispanic just to really make things a bit more confusing, as white people like to pretend that race vs race bias doesn't exist and only white folks need to stop giving other folks a hard time.

Only thing that bugs me is the thought that Zim wouldn't go to trial. The law he's being protected under is disgusting... or license to go plan recreational murders? Like, god damn, Florida!
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on March 21, 2012, 10:42:52 AM
Doom, aren't you a white as fuck spic too?

Zimmerman is Hispanic...white people like to pretend that race vs race bias doesn't exist and only white folks need to stop giving other folks a hard time.
Seriously, all I know about latin america is how to call people shit eaters and that it's got some seriously bonkers racial discrimination.
On the one hand, I mean, everyone has theoretically equal rights under the law.
On the other hand it sounds like "race mixing" or "darkening the blood" is viewed with some serious disdain throughout.

Heck, my moms told me that her father dragged her out of a dance because she was dancing with a black dude once.
Jeez.

EDIT:
Clarified what I meant and added a racial slur just so no one thought I was being uncharacteristically classy.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on March 21, 2012, 10:53:04 AM
It's not often you can legitimately use the phrase Going to Hell in a Handbasket, but Florida and other trigger-happy (http://tinyurl.com/23c5szk) Stand-Your-Ground states are damn well working on it.

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ziiro on March 21, 2012, 11:03:00 AM
Tip, Mongrel: When you want to use a youtube in a link, use the short link. Unless you wanted that to be the surprise in which case I just hate tinyurl.

I am going to take my :thad: hat off now
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on March 21, 2012, 11:07:12 AM
I actually realized I'd C&P'd the wrong one and updated it - probably between when you looked at it and when you hit post. :P
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Joxam on March 21, 2012, 11:08:07 AM
When I saw this page (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-a-little-thug-ghetto-monkey-fox-news-readers-set-new-high-water-mark-for-racism/) I didn't know if I should cry or want to take someone's head off in rage. Its a page dedicated to all the Fox News Website's Community's reaction to the story.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on March 21, 2012, 03:20:52 PM
Seriously, dude, you gotta stop reading internet comments. That shit is just depressing.

Unless it's Thad taking apart morons in ComicsAlliance comments, then it's entertainment.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on March 21, 2012, 08:45:57 PM
But what about when those comments are from a bunch of people who came from the Fox News site?

"What an uninformative article.  It doesn't even tell me who Jack Kirby IS!"
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Bal on March 22, 2012, 01:44:36 AM
 :endit:
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: on March 22, 2012, 03:01:09 AM
He's the pink guy from Nintendo games, right? He writes comics now?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on March 23, 2012, 10:32:05 AM
I can't remember where, or who, but someone was talking about people trying to make excuses for murder, and they said something to the effect of "this is only going to get worse". Sadly, they were right:

Geraldo Rivera Blames Trayvon Martin (Or His Parents) For Wearing Hoodie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTMyb15bfAE#ws)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Esperath on March 23, 2012, 10:44:19 AM
Ah, the good ol' "don't dress slutty unless you want to get raped" defense.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: NexAdruin on March 23, 2012, 10:48:23 AM
Did that guy just say that it's normal and natural to feel an immediate reaction of needing to defend oneself because someone else is wearing a jacket
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on March 23, 2012, 02:00:15 PM
Yeah uh there's a whole lot of really terrible stuff out there along the lines of "Trayvon Martin caused his own death" FOR THE CRIME OF BEING BLACK.

My favorite is The Blaze(founded by Glenn Beck) (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/al-sharpton-dismisses-self-defense-argument-in-shooting-of-teen/) implying that Trayvon was a problem child because he was absent from school once. Unable to find facts to aid their article, they list the full spectrum of criminal activities that can get you suspended from the school, completely unrelated to anything Trayvon actually did, just so they can put the words arson, kidnapping and murder in the same article as him.

Hol-eeeeeeee

Fuck.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on March 23, 2012, 03:53:12 PM
Ah, the good ol' "don't dress slutty unless you want to get raped" defense.

I guess now we forever have the male version to throw back at people.

That's not exactly worth a boy's life though ( ._.)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on March 23, 2012, 04:54:37 PM
I can't remember where, or who, but someone was talking about people trying to make excuses for murder, and they said something to the effect of "this is only going to get worse". Sadly, they were right:

Geraldo Rivera Blames Trayvon Martin (Or His Parents) For Wearing Hoodie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTMyb15bfAE#ws)


...It is surprisingly difficult to find an embeddable clip of Earl shouting, from the back of the BRAT, "Hey Gerardo!  Fuck you!"

I am sorely tempted to sign up for a YouTube account, download the episode, and rip and upload those two seconds just for this occasion.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on March 23, 2012, 04:56:17 PM
:doit:
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on March 23, 2012, 05:47:29 PM
He's got a point though.  What kind of normal person would want to wear a hooded sweatshirt in a notoriously wet and rainy climate in February?

This was my original snarky reaction, but then I listened to the whole clip where Geraldo actually addresses that:

Quote
Unless it's raining out, or you're at a track meet, leave the hoodie home.

It's fucking Miami, you douchebag.  It rains 135 days out of the year and averages 61.9 inches.  If you wait for it to rain before dressing appropriately, you're going to end up fucking miserable; if you do it in February, you're going to end up seriously sick.

You're too stupid to keep talking, get off my TV.

Look, I get where the guy is coming from.  He's not racist, at least not the way you think; he's got his own clutch of conspicuously not-white kids and is exasperated by the fact that they refuse to believe that there are white people out there who will shoot them for acting conspicuously non-white.  But equating a piece of functional attire to a shit-eating hick on the scale of murders is completely the wrong tack to take.

What I'm saying is if you really think it's appropriate to demand that non-white people be banned from wearing comfortable clothes just so white people will stop shooting them, then slap yourself in the back of the head for every armed neo-Nazi you just encouraged.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on March 24, 2012, 07:29:19 AM
I think Geraldo is suffering from the same problem his parents suffered from when his generation was running around with long hair and listening to the Beatles. He is too old and out of touch to understand youth culture and like most people he does not posess the necessary cynicism to believe that this could happen for no reason in America - so he blames what he does not understand, Hoodies, for the death of a child rather than a cold-blooded racist murderer who shot dead a child for committing the high crime of being black after dark.

(edit: I wonder how long it would take to find a pundit from the Lennon era attribute Lennon's death to having long hair?)

For the record: as someone who is vehemently against gun control, this case is everything that is wrong with stand your ground and then some. Someone gave a clearly unstable racist shitheel a gun and a neighborhood watch post. If we're not going to monitor who we are handing these fucking guns out to, we shouldn't have them at all.

Quote from: Doom
Considering all the accounts of police pressing witnesses to change their testimony and the infamous 911 tapes where Zimmerman follows the kid despite police correcting him not to and then Trayvon begging for help/his life before a second shot is fired, it's really hard to look at this case objectively

Also, someone cleaned up the audio of the 911 tapes and zimmerman is heard saying 'fucking coons' under his breath. This is pretty much the most cut and dry hate crime in years and the fact that this guy isn't rotting in prison right now is a serious miscarriage of justice.

If I was George Zimmerman, I would be begging the police to let me stay in a cell. He's probably waking up every morning to slashed tires and busted windows. When Samuel L Jackson is referencing you by name in a PSA you've officially become overexposed.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Angry Beaver on March 24, 2012, 07:52:42 AM
Actually living just a few scant miles from Sanford, and reading this in the paper every day, I will not be suprized if the entire city goes up in flames.

And nothing of value will be lost.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on March 24, 2012, 08:39:39 AM
I think Geraldo is suffering from the same problem his parents suffered from when his generation was running around with long hair and listening to the Beatles. He is too old and out of touch to understand youth culture and like most people he does not posess the necessary cynicism to believe that this could happen for no reason in America - so he blames what he does not understand, Hoodies, for the death of a child rather than a cold-blooded racist murderer who shot dead a child for committing the high crime of being black after dark.

(edit: I wonder how long it would take to find a pundit from the Lennon era attribute Lennon's death to having long hair?)

For the record: as someone who is vehemently against gun control, this case is everything that is wrong with stand your ground and then some. Someone gave a clearly unstable racist shitheel a gun and a neighborhood watch post. If we're not going to monitor who we are handing these fucking guns out to, we shouldn't have them at all.

Quote from: Doom
Considering all the accounts of police pressing witnesses to change their testimony and the infamous 911 tapes where Zimmerman follows the kid despite police correcting him not to and then Trayvon begging for help/his life before a second shot is fired, it's really hard to look at this case objectively

Also, someone cleaned up the audio of the 911 tapes and zimmerman is heard saying 'fucking coons' under his breath. This is pretty much the most cut and dry hate crime in years and the fact that this guy isn't rotting in prison right now is a serious miscarriage of justice.

If I was George Zimmerman, I would be begging the police to let me stay in a cell. He's probably waking up every morning to slashed tires and busted windows. When Samuel L Jackson is referencing you by name in a PSA you've officially become overexposed.


What PSA is that? I did find this (which is quite good):

Samuel L. Jackson's Stop Gun Violence PSA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=depgWW3wakQ#ws)

But while he's obviously referencing Zimmerman, he does not actually say his name. Is there another where he does?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on March 24, 2012, 08:48:47 AM
It's possible I misheard it, or it's possible it was already edited, but that was definately it. it was early, so I probably just misheard it.

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Zaratustra on March 24, 2012, 03:27:02 PM
The kid committed the crime of being too black near a white dude with a gun.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: TA on March 24, 2012, 04:51:58 PM
The kid committed the crime of being too black near a hispanic dude with a gun.
There's a lot of racial tension in Florida, and not everything is black and white. (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0324/Who-is-George-Zimmerman-and-why-did-he-shoot-Trayvon-Martin)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on March 24, 2012, 05:26:37 PM
Hispanic people can't be racist. Racism is a purely white disease.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: NexAdruin on March 24, 2012, 10:37:18 PM
That PSA was posted to youtube in 2011, so I don't think it's referencing Zimmerman. It does sort of fit, though.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on March 25, 2012, 06:30:59 AM
Didn't the original shooting happen some time ago? I thought we were months into this thing but it only now exploded in the news (like there was a window for the locals to deal with it, and when they didn't, shit hit the fan)?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Caithness on March 25, 2012, 07:14:13 AM
That window was one month, apparently.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: NexAdruin on March 25, 2012, 07:15:04 AM
The shooting happened on Feb 26th according to the article Thad posted.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: NexAdruin on March 25, 2012, 09:47:00 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/0ShZ0.jpg)

Here's a thing.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on March 25, 2012, 10:55:04 AM
That PSA was posted to youtube in 2011, so I don't think it's referencing Zimmerman. It does sort of fit, though.

Well, don't I feel stupid.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on March 25, 2012, 11:44:04 AM
On the other hand, what an eerily accurate forecast.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on March 25, 2012, 02:52:11 PM
Here's a thing.
It's funny because it ignores what the justice system assumes about people based on melanin.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: LaserBeing on March 25, 2012, 03:48:07 PM
Here's a thing.
It's funny because it ignores what the justice system assumes about people based on melanin.

:joke:
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on March 26, 2012, 09:07:38 AM
Trayvon Martin hulked the fuck out and savagely beat Zimmerman, claims Zimmerman! (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager)

Ignoring the opportunity to be any snarkier(OK last shot: wow, he overcame a 100 lb weight class and the threat of a drawn gun + warning shot?) I have to wonder why, if beaten to a bloody pulp and forced to use his gun to save his own life, Zimmerman wouldn't get some nice timely photos of his wounds from the police to keep his story up to date?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on March 26, 2012, 09:48:00 AM
Quote
He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.

And already the headlines are pouring in.  Expect the Limbaughs of the world to start shouting things like "Juvenile delinquent!" and, with Rush's usual lack of self-awareness, "Drug addict!"

(An aside: not the first story I've heard of a kid getting suspended over an empty baggie.  Jesus Christ, if it's empty, THROW IT OUT.)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: McDohl on March 26, 2012, 01:50:43 PM
In the work truck today, they had Limbaugh playing, and, yes, he was squawking that, but no "drug addict" line.  He was trying to distance it from the race issue by bringing up that all the left-wingers were bringing it up as a race issue.

Doom's article states what I needed confirmed from Rush's diatribe: the New Black Panthers have offered a $10,000 reward for Zimmerman.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on March 27, 2012, 06:09:03 AM
Zimmerman's lawyer runs away from interview; Lawrence O'Donnel yells at an empty chair instead. (http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/27/10878312-zimmermans-lawyer-bails-on-interview)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on March 27, 2012, 09:19:52 PM
He was bigger, and looked a few years older than my cousin (probably late high school/early college).

I have consulted with my lady, who got a better look at the guy than I did, and she says I'm way off; the guy who wanted to start a fight with a 15-year-old who bumped him was in his mid-30's.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on March 28, 2012, 08:11:57 AM
So apparently some fellow found Zimmerman's address and tweeted it, whereupon it was re-tweeted by Spike Lee and re-re-tweeted endlessly after that.

Only the address doesn't actually doesn't belong to George Zimmerman: it belongs to a pair of septuagenarian retirees; who are now receiving all manner of loving and wonderful messages of friendship.

Thanks, Internet Lynch Mob.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: NexAdruin on March 28, 2012, 05:25:16 PM
There was a discussion in #finalfight about using violence and methods of spite (mostly violence) to eradicate racist attitudes in people. It was one of the dumbest conversations I've ever been a part of and it quickly devolved into a small flamewar before Patito silenced the room.

Internet fighting aside, this kind of lynch mob bullshit has simply gotten out of hand. This isn't justice, and it wouldn't have been even if they had targeted the right address. You can't hate people into being less hateful, and the fact that anyone seems to think you can baffles me. Zimmerman obviously needs to be removed from society for a while, and probably removed from guns for a lifetime, but harassment doesn't get anything done.

It's easy to hate Zimmerman. It's easy to want to punch him until he forgets his name. But someone, at some point, has to stop being angry. Watching the Sammy J PSA, his scenario seems to involve the gun-holder being assaulted, or somehow targeted. But the fact that he acted in retaliation doesn't excuse what happened. At some point we each have to look at ourselves and decide if we're going to continue cycles of hatred and violence or if we're going to break them. Zimmerman chose to continue it, and by attempting to harass him for his behavior instead of letting the justice system (which itself needs a lot of work, but is better than vigilantism) handle it the people doing this are only better in that they don't have a loaded gun available.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on March 28, 2012, 06:41:43 PM
You guys are putting a lot of people into the Internet Lynch Mob that don't belong there. How about you keep it at "the people brazen enough to post addresses and act on posted addresses?"

Quote
Zimmerman chose to continue it, and by attempting to harass him for his behavior instead of letting the justice system (which itself needs a lot of work, but is better than vigilantism) handle it the people doing this are only better in that they don't have a loaded gun available.

The rest of us are howling because A) this is an interesting case highlighted by almost comical cover-up and lying and B) there's a lot of precedent for somebody like Zimmerman getting away with it. We want him to get busted.

And with any luck he will! Seems police report is coming out and there's even video of his initial arrest, where he is completely uninjured. To the point of not even having grass stains on the back of his shirt. I hear the Department of Justice is investigating that Sanford PD as well. So a lot of us are just waiting for the hammer to fall in the form of a trial.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on March 28, 2012, 06:44:02 PM
You guys are putting a lot of people into the Internet Lynch Mob that don't belong there. How about you keep it at "the people brazen enough to post addresses and act on posted addresses?"

Thousands of people have re-tweeted the Spike Lee tweet. Granted this doesn't make them much more than blind followers, but what the hell does anyone think an angry mob is made up of anyway?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on March 28, 2012, 06:46:19 PM
Quote
Thousands of people have re-tweeted the Spike Lee tweet.

So does "people brazen enough to post and act on the posting" not count because there's a lot of them?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: NexAdruin on March 28, 2012, 06:50:14 PM
By all means this is an important case, and attention should be brought to the events that transpired so we can get an idea of what happened and why it happened that way, but clamoring for justice and spamming the guy with death threats are completely different things. It's good that the justice department is looking into the case.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on March 28, 2012, 06:53:07 PM
Quote
Thousands of people have re-tweeted the Spike Lee tweet.

So does "people brazen enough to post and act on the posting" not count because there's a lot of them?

Some people will re-post without actually acting on it, hoping that "someone" will.

God it's hard to type properly this drunk.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on March 28, 2012, 08:06:06 PM
And with any luck he will! Seems police report is coming out and there's even video of his initial arrest, where he is completely uninjured. To the point of not even having grass stains on the back of his shirt.

Yep. (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57406183/video-shows-zimmerman-without-blood-bruises/)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on March 30, 2012, 08:13:30 AM
Spike Lee settles with the McClains (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_162-57407018-10391698/spike-lee-settles-with-couple-after-retweet-blunder/); Hannity finds a way to blame Obama for it (http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/03/30/obama-mega-donor-spike-lee-embroiled-controversy).
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: NexAdruin on March 30, 2012, 08:39:24 AM
Thad, haven't you heard? Every problem in the world can be blamed on the sitting POTUS. Unless he's of your party, in which case the problems can be blamed on the last POTUS to be nominated by the other party.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on April 09, 2012, 07:49:34 PM
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/04/09/461201/breaking-george-zimmerman-launches-website-features-vandalized-black-cultural-center/ (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/04/09/461201/breaking-george-zimmerman-launches-website-features-vandalized-black-cultural-center/)

So the scumbag's got a paypal account set up so people can donate him money.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Disposable Ninja on April 09, 2012, 07:56:43 PM
So apparently NBC cut out a part where the 911 Operator asked Zimmerman what ethnicity Treyvon was, and as such attributed racial prejudice to Zimmerman that he might not have had.

On the other hand, he's now living off of the "goodwill" of racists.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on April 10, 2012, 01:04:41 PM
Zimmerman's lawyers just dropped him for not following their legal advice and cutting off contact with them.

 :whoops:
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on April 11, 2012, 02:11:19 PM
Zimmerman to be charged with second-degree murder, which kinda seems like the obvious thing to do.

I read a rather bizarre and breathless conjecture piece on The New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2012/04/chasing-george-zimmerman.html) just a little bit ago suggesting that he might go on the run; it's since been updated to acknowledge that he has in fact turned himself in.  Way to go, New Yorker.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on April 11, 2012, 03:10:56 PM
George Zimmerman's super professional website where you can paypal him money because unfortunately he experienced a "life altering" event. (http://therealgeorgezimmerman.com/)

I wonder why his lawyers dropped him.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: McDohl on April 11, 2012, 05:46:00 PM
Zimmerman is in custody, somewhere in Florida.

Police custody, heard it on Sirius XM's POTUS channel on the way home from work.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on April 27, 2012, 08:24:57 AM
Zimmerman collected over $200,000 in donations from racists. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-zimmerman-reveals-support-fund-2012-0427,0,1035645.story)

Quote
O'Mara said that Zimmerman had already used roughly $50,000 of the money "for living expenses -- rent or whatever"
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Disposable Ninja on April 27, 2012, 08:27:03 AM
Well... at least it's good to know that there are more fans of old school adventure games than there are horrible human beings.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: McDohl on April 27, 2012, 02:15:06 PM
I love that face on the article.  Perfect for stupid image macros.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on April 27, 2012, 05:26:21 PM
I've seen a lot of mad people but that's close to the maddest I've ever seen a human being. He must really feel like he's being torpedoed by his client.

Zimmerman collected over $200,000 in donations from racists. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-zimmerman-reveals-support-fund-2012-0427,0,1035645.story)

Quote
O'Mara said that Zimmerman had already used roughly $50,000 of the money "for living expenses -- rent or whatever"

Spent 50,000 dollars on "rent" in two weeks.

 :richiam:

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on April 27, 2012, 06:28:45 PM
I can't go to 7-11 my life is over oh wait there's actually a chance in hell I can beat this charge and get off scott free and move to another country and live like a king, thanks racist shit-heels. :pfff:
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on April 27, 2012, 08:21:25 PM
I'm not sure what the problem is.  I think all the rednecks should invest every last dime they have into this guy.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on April 30, 2012, 03:13:26 PM
Zimmerman's lawyers want in on that sweet, sweet racist idiot money train. (http://gzlegalcase.com/)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on May 02, 2012, 11:17:47 AM
Some Thoughts on the Trayvon Martin Case (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLEAwbef8-g#ws)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on May 03, 2012, 03:17:14 AM
Ahahaha they found his myspace. (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/george_zimmerman_myspace_trayvon_martin.php?ref=fpa)

Quote
“I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book,” Zimmerman wrote. “Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!”

It's fun to imagine every single racist defender that stepped up for Zimmerman just... completely thunderstruck. And then their brains size up a Hercules' Labor style task of trying to do the mental backflips necessary to ignore it. :jizz:
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 11, 2012, 11:06:57 AM
Floridan black woman sentenced to 20 years after firing an intentional warning shot at abusive husband who strangled and threatened to kill her. (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/florida-stand-ground-sentencing/)  Stand Your Ground defense ignored completely.

Do we need to go fight another war over this shit?  It's getting laid pretty damned bare down there.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on May 11, 2012, 03:22:11 PM
SYG is a terrible law, but the case got muddied up when she retreated, grabbed her gun, went back to the guy and fired a warning shot. It's a bunch of stuff about right to retreat. "Warning Shots" are a terrible idea to begin with and I wish she could pick up a very light sentence(a few months? a year? I'm not sure what would count as light here, though 20 years is obviously some fire hose to a tea cup shit) given the circumstances and the husband might get called out on, you know, strangling his wife.

Since Florida does not want for shitty laws, I guess 10-20-Life has a good hand in the overbearing sentence.

Quote
"Under the state's 10-20-life law, a conviction for aggravated assault where a firearm has been discharged carries a minimum and maximum sentence of 20 years without regarding to any extenuating or mitigating circumstances that may be present, such as those in this case," Daniel said.

You can't bring up circumstances or context! This is a court! We've got people to sentence! What do you think a trial is for?! Establishing motives for actions?! Get out!

I went ahead and readied the necessary .gif.

(http://doom.pyoko.org/florida.gif)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 11, 2012, 03:30:21 PM
Apparently she was offered a plea deal for 3 years and her legal team refused, and the minimum sentence for aggravated assault in Florida is 20 years. I think if anyone's to blame for this it's her legal team for gambling on her getting off and failing to follow through.

I suspect this will probably be thrown out on appeal, in any event. It's a bit of a national embarassment.

additionally as Doom pointed out, she fled the house and chose to come back with a weapon. 'He had it coming' is not an adequate legal defense for aggravated assault. It looks like the DA argued that she put her children at risk by re-entering the house and firing her weapon when she could have fled on foot to, say, a neighbor's house and called the police.

edit: I'm definitely not going to argue that her husband was in the right, or that she was particularly in the wrong, or that this is a sane and just legal judgement. However, like in most things, this is not a black and white issue and what she did was in a definite legal grey area. Her legal team should have fought harder to work on getting her out on a plea deal instead of gambling on a pretty liberal interpretation of a law that is already being looked at with harsh scrutiny because of the Trayvon Martin case.

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 11, 2012, 07:01:17 PM
We don't really need to be reminded what about the nuance and questionable applicability of "stand your ground" makes this an embarrassment? The questionable applicability of "stand your ground" is what these cases have in common.

When a fairly pale latino slew a black teenager with a firearm, "stand your ground" was summarily invoked in spite of how shaky the evidence and details were.
When a black woman being threatened with death or the surrender of property uses the threat of lethal force to successfully de-escalate a situation in her home, she is jailed, tried, and convicted after a short deliberation.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 11, 2012, 07:25:04 PM
To be fair, the primary difference here is that one has been to trial and the other hasn't.

Don't be shocked if Zimmerman spends 30 years in prison after 15 minutes of deliberation.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 11, 2012, 07:26:14 PM
Is there a statement to the fact that she went back to confront her husband rather than to extract the two children trapped in a house with him?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 11, 2012, 07:30:57 PM
Ehhh... Extracting children from a spouse when the spouse has not given very explicit threat to them is usually a no-no. Attempting to extract the children could be grounds for denying visitation if the matter came to court.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on May 11, 2012, 09:25:53 PM
To be fair, the primary difference here is that one has been to trial and the other hasn't.

Don't be shocked if Zimmerman spends 30 years in prison after 15 minutes of deliberation.


But also don't be shocked if he doesn't.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on May 11, 2012, 10:19:53 PM
The paradox about the Zimmerman situation is this:

He deserves a fair trial, same as anyone, and is innocent until proven guilty.  We are a nation of laws, and the court of public opinion needs to take a step back and let the justice system work.

BUT

If the court of public opinion hadn't gone fucking apeshit on him, he never would have gone to trial in the first goddamn place, and would have gotten off scot-free for what does indeed appear to be a pretty clear case of second-degree murder.

ANYHOW, to the current subject at hand, yeah, the real villain here seems to be minimum sentencing.  That shit is fucking crazy and undermines the basic job description implied by the word "judge".
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 11, 2012, 10:30:27 PM
Hey look, I'm not trying to judge people unfairly here, but...
I'm going to say that racism gets top villain billing here. Minimum sentencing (especially for first offenses), callous and "conservative" as it is, might not even rank second choice next to how baffling SYG and its implementation is.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on May 12, 2012, 10:32:23 AM
You're assuming that minimum sentencing and stand your ground are not subcategories of racism.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 12, 2012, 10:53:57 AM
Then you might as well say that Agahnim is the top villain in Link to the Past.

You know, I'm even willing to give "minimum sentencing" the benefit of the doubt in terms of how racist* it is, because at least it's (theoretically) applied uniformly across all convicts. Never mind that the process of reaching a conviction is evidently frighteningly racist, how can you tell what parts of it aren't racist or what difference those hypothetically not-racist parts actually make?

Like, maybe instead of getting convictions with unfairly light sentences some people are now just getting off the hook for these minimum sentencing crimes.




*racist rather than generally pro-establishment, which high, fixed punitive measures inevitably are.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 12, 2012, 11:01:55 AM
Then you might as well say that Agahnim is the top villain in Link to the Past.

I do not think that counter-argument is as effective as you think it is.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 12, 2012, 11:35:57 AM
If we were going to have a scholarly analysis of LttP, I think we're going to come to an agreement that Agahnim's a special boss, but he's definitely not top villain by any stretch.

Oh, wait, you're talking about the applicability of the analogy? Or maybe that it's useless to talk about a vague, pervasive ur-cause of inequity like racism or "dark falz"?
OK I can see the rationale for those.

Here's the thing, though. Florida just gave the rest of the US a big textbook example of how racism still lingers and disenfranchises people. We've got plenty of other little atrocities more directly about how the wealthy are paranoid, petty, and self-serving in the Oh!Bama, Republican Implosion, Occupy Boardwalk, and Mitt Romney Mitting Off Again threads. So why pick the one thing in this story that's least tied to how racist our court system can be as the villain in the Marissa Alexander case?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on May 12, 2012, 11:42:23 AM
If we were going to have a scholarly analysis of LttP, I think we're going to come to an agreement that Agahnim's a special boss, but he's definitely not top villain by any stretch.

...have you ever finished the game?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 12, 2012, 11:54:37 AM
Yeah, like 40 times. Ganon is foreshadowed throughout. Agahnim is revealed at his final defeat to be a modest fraction of Ganon's power. Agahnim, while he serves other purposes as a villain exists primarily to foreshadow and psych you up for the fight with Ganon. That ultimate evil and total dick who you've known is the cause of all your problems for the whole game.

And don't go, "Oh! Ganon's not as tough as Agahnim," or, "But! You only fight Ganon once," or, "But that's how it always is in Legend of Zelda! It doesn't differentiate the titles to say Ganon is the big bad!"

Really? Did you finish Adventure of Link? I did. Where was the Ganon fight there guys? Answer: Nowhere.
In the 16 bit era, there wasn't a precedent in Zelda that guaranteed Ganon was a boss. But we knew he was going to be, because he was foreshadowed and talked up every time you fought Agahnim, and by golly he was tougher to beat than Agahnim. In part because Agahnim, unlike the other bosses, gave you a practice fight earlier in the game.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 12, 2012, 11:56:23 AM
You're assuming that minimum sentencing and stand your ground are not subcategories of racism.

I hate to agree with Classic on this, but I don't see how either of these are racist. If anything, minimum sentencing prevents judges from giving whites shorter sentences, and stand your ground is a misguided self-defense law, no racism is actually implied.One could argue about implementation, or that violent crime is predominately perpetrated by minorities, but in the case the former that's idiotic and/or racist judges and prosecutors, and in the case of the former, if we're going to go that route why don't we just erect the full strawman and say that we should abolish all law because poor minorities are more likely to break it, and :racist:

edit: before somebody takes my statement out of context, it is not racist to state that minorities commit more crimes because that's a proven fact. It'd be racist if I was saying that minorities commit more crimes because they are racially more inclined to do so. I'm aware that minorities are responsible for such a lopsided chunk of crime because crime is predominantly committed by the extremely poor, and fewer opportunities are available for minorities to succeed, mostly due to institutionalized racism.

Having said that, I still don't see how stand your ground is an extension of the institutionalized racism that plagues our society. If you want to blame anything for the potential issues it causes with race relations, blame laws like Right to Work and the various immigration "reforms" that have done such a fine job of putting young black and hispanic men out of jobs and onto the streets, or No Child Left Behind that makes sure that any school that can't afford to buy textbooks, pay competent teachers or keep toilet papers in the fucking stalls stays that way forever.

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 12, 2012, 12:02:54 PM
Strictly speaking Shinra, because there's apparently a racial bias in the judicial system, it's more accurate to say members of minoirity races are "convicted of more crimes".

It's surprisingly easy to either get out of, or remove, a DUI conviction from your record if you're white and "know the rules" for breaking the law.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on May 12, 2012, 12:08:34 PM
Before we get back on track:

Dude.  Agahnim IS Ganon.
Zelda link to the past Boss fight Agahnim (2 time) 96 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qBjV_P114A#)
Zelda : A Link to the Past - Final Boss - GANON (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7KeCT8SwBA#)

If anything, minimum sentencing prevents judges from giving whites shorter sentences

Assuming whites were convicted at the same ratio as minorities.

and stand your ground is a misguided self-defense law, no racism is actually implied.

Bullshit.

Stand Your Ground is inherently racist.  "Feeling threatened" is thinly-veiled code for "SCARY BLACK MAN".

The Zimmerman/Martin example is not an anomaly.  It is the exact thing the law was written for.  You see a Scary Black Man, you shoot him, the police let you go.

edit: before somebody takes my statement out of context, it is not racist to state that minorities commit more crimes because that's a proven fact.

Saying "it's a proven fact" is not actually proof.

What's your source?  What's your source's rubric?

It's certainly true that minorities are disproportionately CONVICTED of violent crimes.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 12, 2012, 12:16:12 PM
Agahnim IS Ganon.
I was pretty sure it was a plot point that Ganon was trapped in the dark world by the sages' seal. I'm also pretty sure Agahnim makes it out like he's part of some kind of Evil Trinity, or something. That he's an Evil Jesus. But I have VC, I have a SNES. I CAN DOUBLE CHECK THIS SHIT FOR MYSELF.

and stand your ground is a misguided self-defense law, no racism is actually implied.

Bullshit.

Stand Your Ground is inherently racist.  "Feeling threatened" is thinly-veiled code for "SCARY BLACK MAN".

Thanks Thad. I didn't have the heart to straight out tell Shinra he's been picking up racist talking points from someplace.

EDIT:
I almost missed an opportunity to use a pluralized possessive! What's wrong with me?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 12, 2012, 12:22:20 PM
I don't disagree, but the fact remains that more minority offenders are arrested and convicted for violent crime. Again, I'm not saying they're more likely to offend out of racial bias, but being poor and not having any opportunities makes you do some desperate shit. I'm not ashamed to say that during times of unemployment I've stolen to eat and considered (more than once) robbing a store to keep my goddamn power on. And that's the desperation I feel as a white person with a reasonable education and good job skills. A lot of black and hispanic men never get the opportunity to develop those skills or even complete their education, and when the best thing you can hope for is to get a ten dollar an hour job at the steel mill, it's not exactly shocking that racial minorities are more likely to be involved in robberies, muggings and gang related crimes. The government in the wake of desegregation instead created a world where ethnic communities are stuck, pereptually, in low-income areas with low standards of education. And every time some new standard is raised up, a new law comes into play to block it. It's not exactly a secret that No Child Left Behind specifically targets and leaves behind low-income schools , and it's not exactly a secret that laws like Right to Work were designed to target industries like unskilled labor and manufacturing, which tend to be the places unskilled workers go to find jobs that are actually worth doing. While, like Stand your Ground neither of these laws deliberately target minorities (only low income/low education areas), they still have a more direct effect than SYG, which is pretty unambiguous in what it sets out to do. Minorities dying because of SYG is a symptom of institutionalized racism, but SYG itself is not a cause or even directly a part of that system.

Quote from: Thad
Saying "it's a proven fact" is not actually proof.

What's your source?  What's your source's rubric?

It's certainly true that minorities are disproportionately CONVICTED of violent crimes.

OK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States)

Quote
Murder
Homicide victimization by race, 1976-2005. [1]

    UCR, Murder Victims by Age, Sex, and Race, 2009: [4]
    UCR, Murder Offenders by Age, Sex, and Race, 2009: [5]
    UCR, Race and Sex of Victim by Race and Sex of Offender, Single victim/single offender, 2009: [6]

A United States Department of Justice report which surveyed homicide statistics between 1974 and 2004 stated that of the crimes surveyed, 52.2% of the offenders were Black, 45.8% were White, and 2% were Other Races. Of the victims in those same crimes, 50.9% were White, 46.9% were Black, and 2.1% were Other Races. The report further stated that "most murders are intraracial" with 86% of White murders committed by Whites, and 94% of Black murders committed by Blacks.[21] However, the document does not provide any details concerning what races or ethnicities are included in the designations "White", "Black", or "Other Races".

The report cited:
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_03.html (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_03.html)

Quote
Race / Ethnicity    Number    Percentage of
U.S. population
Americans    308,745,538    100.0 %
White    223,553,265    72.4 %
Black or African American    38,929,319    12.6 %
American Indian or Alaska Native    2,932,248    0.9 %
Asian    14,674,252    4.8 %
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander    540,013    0.2 %
Some other race    19,107,368    6.2 %

Demographic breakdown of the US population shows that black and hispanic americans make up, combined, about 20% of the population, but, combined, account for some 60% of murders alone in the US.

Quote
Thanks Thad. I didn't have the heart to straight out tell Shinra he's been picking up racist talking points from someplace.
Pointing out that numbers line up isn't racist, guys. I don't know what to say. I already went over the rationale of why this is the case, but I guess you can pretend I'm fucking posting from Stormfront or something?

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: TA on May 12, 2012, 12:29:25 PM
The issue is that you're assuming those numbers are comprehensive.  "Minorities commit more crimes than whites" is the racist conclusion to be drawn from the data point of "Minorities are arrested, tried, and convicted at disproportionately high rates for their population count, as compared to whites".

You've talked in the past about having shoplifted perfume and stuff from grocery stores.  Were you arrested, tried, and convicted every single time you did that?  If not, do you think the times you weren't are included in any of those statistics?  Do you understand the point being made here?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: TA on May 12, 2012, 12:31:29 PM
Agahnim IS Ganon.
I was pretty sure it was a plot point that Ganon was trapped in the dark world by the sages' seal. I'm also pretty sure Agahnim makes it out like he's part of some kind of Evil Trinity, or something. That he's an Evil Jesus. But I have VC, I have a SNES. I CAN DOUBLE CHECK THIS SHIT FOR MYSELF.

I'll save you the effort.  Here's the script (http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/561559-the-legend-of-zelda-a-link-to-the-past/faqs/29462).  Ganon specifically refers to Agahnim as his "alter ego".
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 12, 2012, 12:31:53 PM
Oh:

Quote from: Thad

Bullshit.

Stand Your Ground is inherently racist.  "Feeling threatened" is thinly-veiled code for "SCARY BLACK MAN".

The Zimmerman/Martin example is not an anomaly.  It is the exact thing the law was written for.  You see a Scary Black Man, you shoot him, the police let you go.

I'm not saying the law does not set up situations like these, I am saying the law is not (as you are implying) inherently racist and is not directly furthering the pervasive racism in our society. I will not deny that, as a symptom of other factors, it has managed to for lack of a better term, put a racial group in it's sights. Get rid of SYG because it let an idiot like George Zimmerman with extremely poor judgement murder a child, not because of some perception that it's making racism worse in this country.

edit: And you know what, for that matter, get rid of it because somebody thought it'd be a good idea to go back to confront her husband with a firearm and fire a loaded weapon in the direction of her fucking children. I used to support laws like this, but it's really become apparent that people can't be trusted with the fucking responsibility of gun ownership in the first place.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 12, 2012, 12:37:03 PM
The issue is that you're assuming those numbers are comprehensive.  "Minorities commit more crimes than whites" is the racist conclusion to be drawn from the data point of "Minorities are arrested, tried, and convicted at disproportionately high rates for their population count, as compared to whites".

You've talked in the past about having shoplifted perfume and stuff from grocery stores.  Were you arrested, tried, and convicted every single time you did that?  If not, do you think the times you weren't are included in any of those statistics?  Do you understand the point being made here?

I'm not assuming that they're comprehensive, but I'm also not buying the opposite assumption that Whites are committing enough crimes to equalize the table but they're just not being tried for any of them.

Can we agree that a greater amount of crime is committed by persons at, just above, and below the poverty line?

Can we agree that a greater percentage of persons at, above and below that line are minorities, mostly due to institutionalized racism as I've already discussed?

(here's a source for minorities and poverty, didn't dig too deep into it though: http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/ (http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/))

I know it's a controversial point, but that doesn't make it a false one.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 12, 2012, 12:40:19 PM
Do you get, at least, why we're insisting on emphasizing "CONVICTED" instead of "COMMITTED". Those stats are for convictions and a quick wiki for wrongful execution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution) (since we're not holding ourselves to better sources) show why equating conviction to actually committing a crime isn't accurate. Not to mention all sorts of plea and informational bargains that get struck.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 12, 2012, 12:43:08 PM
Ganon specifically refers to Agahnim as his "alter ego".
Obviously, I now have to gather the full script for the SNES (Japanese???) version, so that we can argue what the real "Ganon" is here.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 12, 2012, 12:46:40 PM
Except that's not for convictions, that's for the actual perpetrators of actual crimes. That includes plea bargains, no contest, etc. Please read the actual article instead of dismissing what I am saying outright.

I am not going to deny that, and have not denied, at ANY POINT IN THIS THREAD, that black people are inordinately represented in American prisons and are inordinately wrongfully convicted of crime. Even if you account for wrongful convictions and white crime being ignored, minorities in America STILL make up a disproportionate amount of violent offenders regardless, simply by virtue of being MUCH more likely to be poor.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 12, 2012, 12:49:53 PM
SYG is not racist, it's classist.

This is still a fucking problem.

EDIT: That was not an counterpoint to anyone.  If you get defensive about this post I will poke your eyes right out.

DOUBLE EDIT: Oh, nevermind then.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 12, 2012, 12:51:56 PM
Not disagreeing.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 12, 2012, 12:54:07 PM
Can we agree that a greater amount of crime is committed by persons at, just above, and below the poverty line?
I'm not sure we can even agree on this point. The further that you drift away from this presumably "high risk" level of wealth, the more resources you have to deflect conviction for a committed crime.
If you wanted to prove your assertion, It might also make sense to refer describe a "convicts per capita" rather than a straight number of convictions to deflect questions of population size and recidivism.
It might also be interesting to see, the breakdown of court cases that actually result in conviction based on the race of the defendant or the rate of their tax returns.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 12, 2012, 01:11:23 PM
Except that's not for convictions, that's for the actual perpetrators of actual crimes. That includes plea bargains, no contest, etc. Please read the actual article instead of dismissing what I am saying outright.
I don't actually see where in which article this is explained, but don't think I'm dismissing what you're saying outright. I'm trying to point out an important, if subtle, difference in the way lots of people like to characterize DoJ statistics.

Also:
SYG is not racist, it's classist.
Classist, all too often, is code for, "It's not racist, because sometimes it disenfranchises white people too!"

Granted, I don't think many lawmakers actually think to themselves, "How do I keep those damned minoirities down?" So much as, "How do I protect my own wealth?" But the difference is negligible to the people crushed by poorly conceived laws.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Royal☭ on May 12, 2012, 06:41:07 PM
I know it's a controversial point, but that doesn't make it a false one.

The problem is the point you're trying to make is vague and you're just stating numbers without any actual exploration of them. It is true that minorities are arrested more than whites, but in spite of this you're still trying to argue that it's situational rather than systemic. Basically, that even though they have poor living conditions, minorities are still more likely to be criminals. I dispute this claim, as the numbers I crunched don't add up.

According to the 2012 census abstract (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/income_expenditures_poverty_wealth/poverty.html) (See: People Below Poverty Level by Selected Characteristics: 2009), the following are numbers and percentages of three main races below poverty line:

White: 30,888,000 or 15.7% of 196.8 million
Black: 10,575,000 or 28.06% of 37.7 million
Hispanic: 12,350,000 or 24.47% of 50.5 million

Of note, each of those is the percentage of poverty within their own population, rather than the aggregate. IE White is percent of whites in poverty, not how many whites make up the total.

Now just from those numbers, you can see evidence of a systemic imbalance.

But, once you enter in the FBI records on Arrests (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_43.html), you can get some interesting insight:

Of the 10.7 million arrests in 2009, 7.39 million were white, 3.03 were Black, and the rest were American Indian and Asian Pacific.

As a percentage of their overall population:

3.75% of Whites were arrested
8.03% of Blacks were arrested

That's a pretty staggering difference in arrests, with blacks, at 12.2% of the population, being arrested at more than double the amount of whites, who make up 63.8% of the population. If whites were arrested at the same rate, there would be 15,745,404 arrests of whites. That's a pretty staggering number. Even more staggering when you consider that for the purposes of this document, the FBI is counting Whites and Hispanics as the same*.  If I did the same, that puts the White population at 247,295,146 and bumps the rate down to 2.99%. Even crazier! And that bumps the number of Whites who should be arrested up to 19.8 million.

Now, Shinra posited that a lot of crime was poverty based. So let's take a look at the rates of arrests vs the rate of poverty. For the purposes of this exercises, let's assume that ALL crime is the result of poverty.

If you compare the amount of whites in poverty with the amount arrested, you find that 23.9% of impoverished whites have been arrested.
For blacks, you find that 28.6% of impoverished blacks have been arrested.

Again, you're starting to see the systemic bias.

BUT, if you compare the White + Hispanic total of 43,238,000 you find that only 17.1% of Whites are arrested. Staggeringly lower, that's more than 10 points difference.

So while the data shows, empirically, that Blacks are arrested for more crimes at a higher rate than other ethnic groups, even in just their poverty, it's impossible to tell the WHY of that situation. And personal factors like economics, disposition, welfare and race cannot alone explain the discrepancy. If they did, the rate of arrests among the impoverished would be nearly equal. I chose arrests because I sought to show the systemic problem, namely that for some reason blacks are more likely to be arrested for a crime than a white. Go figure.

The reason I bring all of this information up is become this number is often cited as to why minorities (blacks especially) are The Thugs. But, it more highlights how little insight this gives us to the relation of race and crime. For one thing, we actually no very little about how many of a particular race COMMITs a crime. This only tells me how many are arrested for crimes, but in the abstract doesn't tell me how many were bad or incorrect arrests. If I had more resources, I could probably find and crunch the numbers on the percent that go to trial and get arrested. That's more interesting.

That said, this information IS pertinent to societal assumptions about race and crime. As the Martin shooting was starting to gather steam in the national press, there were supporters from Zimmerman's neighborhood who came out to defend him by stating that Zimmerman was trying to stop a series of burglaries. Nearly everyone who stated this information also backed it up by saying the perpetrators were also black. What's significant is that this assumption went unchallenged (remember: If people were getting away with break-ins and nobody could catch them, how did they know they were all black?).

It plays nicely into the longstanding American myth that the black man is just a violent thug, barely restrained by society. And while this myth still exists, things like increased police patrols of black neighborhoods will happen. You also get things like police just stopping black men on the street to inspect them, which helps to up the arrest numbers.

Hope all of this made sense. For a more eloquent take on what I'm trying to say, read Chauncey DeVega's piece on Alternet (http://www.alternet.org/rights/154813/conservatives'_twisted,_racist_logic_in_the_trayvon_martin_case)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 13, 2012, 07:59:40 AM
Quote
but in spite of this you're still trying to argue that it's situational rather than systemic. Basically, that even though they have poor living conditions, minorities are still more likely to be criminals. I dispute this claim, as the numbers I crunched don't add up.

I maybe didn't word it properly except I had a disclaimer in one of the early posts that said that's exactly not what I was saying.

What I said is that across all economic lines, per capita, minorities are more likely to be the perpetrator of a crime. And I stated that because of a pattern of systemic racism throughout our culture, they are more likely to be involved in crimes because they are more likely to be poor, and because the poor have more reason to rob a car, rob a grocery store, mug somebody, operate in a gang, etc.

The argument I was making wasn't that blacks are bad and criminals and they're just naturally criminallin' it up, the argument I was making is that SYG is not directly contributing to the great mesh of institutionalized racism that makes up the American justice and political system. SYG is not cutting funding to schools in low-income areas, SYG is not allowing employers to more easily fire unskilled laborers and tradesmen in the manufacturing industry, SYG is not busting up unions for the manufacturing sector.

I argued that if you are going to look at a law that is deliberately furthering the racial oppression of blacks and hispanics in America, look at No Child Left Behind, which insures that low-income poorly testing schools will never stop being low-income poorly testing schools and Right to Work, which makes it easier than ever for an employer in the manufacturing sector to fire and underpay and underinsure what used to be middle class workers. Both of these laws have far reaching effects on people of all walks of life, but they negatively effect the poor more than any other group. Given that black and hispanic people are much more likely to be poor, statistically (I think I linked this earlier, I'm a little too out of it to dig it up right now) it is not a stretch to say that these laws are both actively and deliberately contributing to racial oppression in America.

Stand your Ground was intended to be a bandstandy Gun Rights Fuck Yeah law, and to be honest with you I think the reason it was passed in the first place wasn't "People need to be able to protect their families" so much as "Statistically speaking, I think i'm going to lose fewer constitutients from gun deaths than I am from gun supporters who don't vote for me if this bill doesn't pass". There's a lot of laws out there that oppress minorities and are allowed to, but the first really, truly egregious misuse of this law only a few years after it's passage is enough to get politicians around the country questioning it's continued use due to the incredible mass outrage it sparked. Yes, SYG definately has a worse effect on minorities than whites, for a lot of reasons (not the last of which is perception) but I don't think I would say that SYG is continuing to further racism in the US. I feel the same way, no, even the opposite about minimum sentencing - get rid of it and we go back to a white guy getting 3 years for burning down and killing a church full of black people. The pendulum swings both ways, here, and we already know that society gives white people lighter sentences to begin with. No need to encourage that any further.

Of course that's not to say that the criminal justice system in America doesn't have a lot of problems, not the least of which is our tendency to treat criminals like animals, not provide them any serious kind of help while in prison to insure that they exit the place as a functioning member of society, etc... I could go on all day about prision and justice reform. But I don't think minimum sentencing is part of that structure that needs to be cut - reworked, perhaps. But shit, if you'd just take 3 strikes out of the equation I don't even think minimum sentencing would be that bad.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 13, 2012, 11:07:36 AM
Little point of nothing that's been bugging me here:
Most (if not all) criminal law in Illinois already has minimum and maximum sentences. Though, having never been punished by them, I don't have any calculus by which to determine if a minimum is cruelly high. That said, what I think we're actually complaining about in the Marissa case is fixed sentences, rather than minimum ones. And I don't know what, if any, white collar crime calls for prison time. So yes, that most of these fixed sentences and high minimums falls on violent crime is a "regressive" policy (scare quotes used because I have a bad feeling that I'm misusing a technical term while complaining about people misusing technical terms).

Non sequitor to post relevant to Shinra's comments regarding laws and how relatively racist they are.
Anyway, here's the thing: No Child Left Behind is a bunch of cock smoking businessmen lounging in their money jacuzzis in a great big circle jerk about how efficient their companies are (at making them money) and deciding to apply the same kind of shortsighted, brain-dead schemes that make businesses "efficient" to institutions that are fundamentally not businesses. For example, institutions that don't and should not function under a profit motive.

The objective isn't to marginalize the powerless, although No Child Left Behind does this very well. It's to encourage competition between schools. Which makes sense, because competition is the driving force for improvement in a capitalist system (exception given for [insert unbusted monopoly here]).

Every law, even racist ones, are designed so that there's some mental construction or gymnastics in which they're not racist. Like Shinra, I'm even willing to give high minimum sentences a pass on being racist, and until the Marissa case, I might have said that SYG isn't as inherently racist or marginalizing as No Child Left Behind. But here we are with two examples putting into sharp relief the unforgivably racist reality of Stand Your Ground and its implementation.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 13, 2012, 11:56:25 AM
I would agree with that point if it was Trayvon Martin shooting George Zimmerman for attacking him and he was having the book thrown at him.

But the Marissa case was someone who completely lacked the judgement to understand that there's a difference between 'stand your ground in self defense' and 'premeditated aggravated assault'. If anything, the case is just a stark example of why SYG does not work as a law, I don't see how it in itself stands as an example of it's racist connotations, which I still don't believe exist.

She's not being treated differently because she's black, she's being treated differently because she returned to the scene with a gun and recklessly discharged it in the direction of her children. If Zimmerman's story had been 'I saw this guy in the neighborhood, and he shoved me over, so I went home, grabbed my gun, came back and shot him', this story never would have exploded because he'd have been arrested on the spot.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 13, 2012, 12:40:53 PM
Zimmerman pursued Trayvon armed with a weapon against police recommendations. Do you not get how this makes "stand your ground" of extremely questionable applicability?

She was in her residence for her possessions with the intent to peacefully leave and was threatened with death after being the victim of battery. She was going somewhere she had every right to go for purposes that can't be called into question because unlike Zimmerman, her firearm was successfully used to deter further violence instead of escalate it.

Also, you moron, there's no point in dwelling on her children unless you're talking about any child endangerment charges she's facing. Seriously, if you weren't you, I'd say you're making chauvinist assumptions about a woman's obligations and ability to control and wield force.

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 13, 2012, 02:43:51 PM
That Zimmerman followed Martin is only important for one reason: If it can be proven that Martin did attack Zimmerman, then it makes it possible for the prosecution to argue that MARTIN was acting in self-defense. If the judge/jury don't buy that it makes no difference.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 13, 2012, 03:36:15 PM
I'm not entirely sure why you say Zimmerman's armed pursuit of Trayvon is only important if it can be proven that Trayvon did attack Zimmerman.

How does a man, evidently prepared to engage, pursuing his eventual victim fall under "Standing Your Ground?"
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on May 13, 2012, 05:29:53 PM
I'm rusty on the exact legality, but basically they have to establish how directly SYG applies. If they can just waive the entire case under a proper SYG defense(i.e. Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and Zim was in undeniable danger of his life), there may not even be a trial. It's something like "Prove the applicability of SYG" -> "The Trial if SYG is N." But again I'm not very familiar with how it works and all we have so far is a wide variety of laughably bad stories from everyone but Zimmerman himself. The formal version submitted to the court to determine legality should be interesting.

I also think it's a big part of the incredibly shitty wording of the SYG Law itself that puts the burden of proof in a really bad spot, particularly as the other guy's side of the story would have to come from a corpse.

Quote
She was in her residence for her possessions with the intent to peacefully leave and was threatened with death after being the victim of battery. She was going somewhere she had every right to go for purposes that can't be called into question because unlike Zimmerman, her firearm was successfully used to deter further violence instead of escalate it.

The purposes can be called into question, not under common sense, but under US law. If we assume "Husband attacks her" -> "Retreats to garage" -> "Grabs gun and confronts Husband" then she should have just gave up on her car and walked away. Her house and her possessions don't matter. You call the cops and they come take care of the husband.

It's a shitty situation and I wish she'd just get a tap on the nose sentence and her husband would get brought up on abuse charges.

Quote
Also, you moron, there's no point in dwelling on her children unless you're talking about any child endangerment charges she's facing. Seriously, if you weren't you, I'd say you're making chauvinist assumptions about a woman's obligations and ability to control and wield force.

I'd say you're making assumptions about how owning a gun works and the ability to control and wield that force.

A gun isn't a magic tool. You don't carry a gun because if somebody is going to attack you, you can now shoot them for free. You don't get a free warning shot because that's how the movies do it. When you draw a gun, you change the situation dramatically. Ideally, you should never have to draw a gun because 9 times out of 10, the situation has now escalated and somebody is going to end up in jail or dead.

Of course that begs the question of "why own a gun for self-defense", but hey, that's another can of worms.

I'm just trying to explain how the legality works. If it was up to Doomarabi's Code, I guess a wife-beater could get a bullet in his primary arm's bicep and then she could call an ambulance because I guess if he bleeds out he might not learn his lesson.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: on May 13, 2012, 05:43:47 PM
You own a gun for self-defense against people who don't give a shit about the law.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: TA on May 13, 2012, 06:25:29 PM
I'm rusty on the exact legality, but basically they have to establish how directly SYG applies. If they can just waive the entire case under a proper SYG defense(i.e. Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and Zim was in undeniable danger of his life), there may not even be a trial. It's something like "Prove the applicability of SYG" -> "The Trial if SYG is N." But again I'm not very familiar with how it works and all we have so far is a wide variety of laughably bad stories from everyone but Zimmerman himself. The formal version submitted to the court to determine legality should be interesting.

Whether or not Martin attacked Zimmerman is a material fact in dispute, and as such is for the jury to decide.  It would be judicial malpractice to throw the case out pretrial on such grounds unless the prosecution stipulated that, which I can't possibly imagine they would.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 13, 2012, 06:32:59 PM
Classic: If Zimmerman attacked Martin without being attacked, then he's convicted because he's claimed to have been attacked (in a way that would make it almost impossible for Martin to have been shot, but I digress).

If Martin did attack but attacked out of his own fear then Martin gets SYG protection and Zimmerman's fucked. This is pretty much up to the prosecution, should it turn out that Zimmerman was actually attacked.

Otherwise, Zimmerman probably gets off using SYG.

Affirmative defenses are dangerous even without media conviction, though. You never know.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 13, 2012, 07:00:34 PM
You don't carry a gun because if somebody is going to attack you, you can now shoot them for free.
Unless you're white in a SYG state, apparently.</idiotic knee jerk retort>

I get that having a theoretical combat advantage (weapons, training, immediately available allies with same) makes you shoulder a lot more legal responsibility and risk when it comes to violence. (Un?)Fortunately, I don't have a lot of experience on how my local laws work regarding armed violence and I don't expect pressing reasons to study it. The argument summary that she "retreated" to the garage is shaky to me, but it could be easy to show that she had readily available tools through which to get to safety unmolested and contact the police (though the huffpo story says she was trapped in the garage by a door she couldn't open). While the sort of person who feels compelled to have a firearm in their vehicle or garage might not live in a safe neighborhood, it's rare not to have a cell phone.

What's bothersome, of course, is that Zimmerman is assumed to have SYG protection and Marissa is assumed to have none though they've both got, at best, shaky grounds to invoke it.
The next most bothersome item is that the two cases taken together make it seem that SYG makes it safer for you to slay your presumed attacker.
Lastly, it also disturbs me how central to all of the reporting the child endangerment portion of the prosecution's arguments are. It feels like an appeal to some sense of maternal responsibility (if we're taking Marissa's word for it, extending up to dying before exposing children to mortal risk), or (more distantly) an assertion that the children were at special risk because Marissa could not control that lethal force. Of course, sexism is a different can of worms, brought up because I wondered why I felt like her children made a difference even though they were all safe and seemed to be much less exposed to mortal peril.

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 13, 2012, 07:09:52 PM
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your phrasing makes it seem to me like you don't seem to know what stand your ground "protection" is. It is muddled by Zimmerman not being arrested and needing a media outcry to make it to trial at all, but stand your ground laws don't prevent you from being charged and can be dangerous in court. To make a stand your ground (or really, any self-defense plea) is to basically plead "I'm guilty, but...."
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 13, 2012, 07:33:53 PM
I'm a little vague, yeah. Being able to walk out without even an arrest after you've shot somebody dead on what was presented as a SYG basis certainly made it seem like they can prevent you from even being charged.

As far as I can tell, SYG laws are some variant on the idea that there are situations where attempting to flee from an attacker to call the police is not a reasonable requirement of a citizen and that there are circumstances where the use of force by a citizen under duress is explicitly legally justified and proof against legal (criminal?) culpability. And I have no clue what it means in tort law.

Illinois has or had some sort of "castle" principle which is or was vaguely SYGish in that you had the right to wield violence against an intruder to your home and presume that they meant you harm.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 13, 2012, 07:57:15 PM
SYG is basically Castle outside of your Castle. Parts that may end up being interesting in the Zimmerman/Martin case are that the Florida law does specifically refer to "great bodily harm" and not just bodily harm, and that it allows even the aggressor to claim it if he uses milder force and is met with "force so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force." which I'm pretty sure is the poorly-written law version of the laser vs. laser fights where the beams collide, go back and forth for a while and then explode and fuck everyone.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 13, 2012, 08:27:36 PM
I was looking up something else and got distracted by this: http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/05/12/gun-range-targets-made-to-look-like-trayvon-martin/ (http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/05/12/gun-range-targets-made-to-look-like-trayvon-martin/)

I play too damned many video games to make any real sort of comment on that but... ouch.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 13, 2012, 08:41:27 PM
Zimmerman pursued Trayvon armed with a weapon against police recommendations. Do you not get how this makes "stand your ground" of extremely questionable applicability?

Zimmerman has not been to trial yet, will go to trial soon, and is almost guaranteed to lose because of this. You are comparing something that hasn't happened yet (and likely won't) to something that has happened already and been decided. Just like Zimmerman misused stand your ground to shoot somebody he was vaguely suspicious of, Marissa misused stand your ground to intimidate and get revenge on her husband, at the peril of her family.

Quote
She was in her residence for her possessions with the intent to peacefully leave and was threatened with death after being the victim of battery. She was going somewhere she had every right to go for purposes that can't be called into question because unlike Zimmerman, her firearm was successfully used to deter further violence instead of escalate it.

She fled the scene and was not pursued. The point of SYG laws is that when you are faced with a fight or flight situation you do not have to choose flight or risk punishment. In theory, SYG allows for a gun owner to use a gun in a situation where they have been attacked, threatened or otherwise menaced at the time that that situation is occuring. The person who was so threatened chose the flight response over the fight response. She was not pursued. She had every opportunity to vacate the premises. She went to the garage, and presumably more lucid now, picked up a firearm, re-entered her domicile, and not only menaced her husband with the weapon, but discharged it. I understand physics are extremely hard for you Classic, but where the fuck was that bullet going to go? She didn't know where her children were in the house and presumably didn't care. She put not only herself in danger by re-entering the house, she put her children and her husband in danger by haphazardly discharging a weapon. You don't fire a weapon to make a point. Warning shots don't exist. This isn't a fucking movie, you idiot. Where do you think bullets go when they miss their intended target? Do you think they disappear into the aether, never to be seen from again?

Quote
Also, you moron, there's no point in dwelling on her children unless you're talking about any child endangerment charges she's facing. Seriously, if you weren't you, I'd say you're making chauvinist assumptions about a woman's obligations and ability to control and wield force.

Oh there's ol' Stormfronty Shinra again, sayin' things because he's crazy and racist and sexist. Maybe if you'd actually read about this case you're so interested in, you would understand that the crux of the Prosecution's argument for her conviction is that she endangered her children by returning to the scene and discharging the weapon. Not only did the prosecution argue this, but she corroborated this in her own version of the events, and a jury of her peers, in conjunction with a prosecutor for the state of Florida and a judge agreed. This isn't crazy ol' me dismissing somebody because she's one of them wimmens. This is a group of qualified people, ostensibly professionals, who, beyond a shadow of a doubt, came to the conclusion that someone made an unlawful use of force that was exempt from the provisions of SYG. They were exempt not because she was one of them negroes, or one of them vagina-havers, but because she chose to flee and then return to the scene with a weapon. If somebody pulls a knife on me, and I run away, I don't get to run to the pawn shop, buy a firearm, come back and shoot them. That's not how these laws are supposed to work. The jury made the right decision in determining this person's guilt. We can make an argument over how unreasonable the sentencing was, but this is a pretty clear example of the system actually WORKING in the prosecution of a SYG case.


edit: before you point it out: child endangerment is relevant because the only possible argument she could make for syg after successfully fleeing and returning is that she was concerned for the safety of her children. Given that she started firing off her gun like it was fucking Point Break, clearly that wasn't the case.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 13, 2012, 08:50:20 PM
Also, George Zimmerman was placed under arrest and taken into police custody for questioning after the shooting. He was not immediately charged, because his version of the story was the only one they had, there was no conflicting witnesses, and it seemed like a cut and dry case of self defense. And yes, part of that was due to the perception of Trayvon Martin being a black person, which is most definitely the result of racial profiling, and that's terrible. But now that facts have come out, George Zimmerman HAS been placed under arrest, he IS awaiting trial, and with public perception forever tainting Zimmerman's ability to receive anything approaching a fair trial coupled with the fact that his story has holes big enough to drive a bus through, it is almost entirely certain he will lose, and spend a very, very long time in jail.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 13, 2012, 09:34:31 PM
Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
OK... You double posted. That's cool. Well, let's go with my response to your first post...


Uh, dude, you need to not be so defensive about being "stormfronty". I didn't even have it in mind as a potential "someplace" until you suggested it. I'm just trying to tell you that what you're posting is a few admissions of institutionalized racism away from shit racists I have had to deal with as part of my elementary schooling have tried to peddle to me.

Where do you think bullets go when they miss their intended target? Do you think they disappear into the aether, never to be seen from again?
Shinra, don't be retarded.
She was in a house. Never mind that you're making assumptions about whether or not the projectile had a target. I think they disappear and are lodged in stucco, drywall and insulation. If you want to talk about movie style ricochets or violently shattering soft cover, we can do that too, but her children and spouse were uninjured.

She had every opportunity to vacate the premises. She went to the garage,
Shinra, don't be retarded.
She could not escape through the garage. Whether or not you take Marissa at her word is up to you, I suppose. But why don't you accuse me of not reading up on the case after you've read through the whole of the thread?

Zimmerman has not been to trial yet, will go to trial soon, and is almost guaranteed to lose because of this. You are comparing something that hasn't happened yet...
Shinra, for the love of God, don't be retarded.
I am not complaining about something that hasn't happened yet. I am complaining about the great disparity in how these cases have been prosecuted so far. If you think I'm being self-righteous and bitchy now, pray that Zimmerman doesn't walk after the trial without some Phoenix Wright type reveals in the courtroom. Because ho-lee-fuck do I have a lot more armchair crusader fury than this.


Shiiit.

Man, I guess I've been calling you an idiot all day. I guess that'd give me a complex too.
I'm sorry I'm constantly calling you an idiot Shinra. I know you're not an idiot. It's unfair for me to engage you in a surrogate shouting match to claim an imaginary victory over other, worser people.



Response to second post:
now that facts have come out
Let's not omit that those facts only "came out" thanks to a pretty scarily huge PR campaign. I mention this because...

public perception forever tainting Zimmerman's ability to receive anything approaching a fair trial
That sounds like a Catch-22 for getting justice done.

I don't think you're losing sleep over that, though. What with how the Trayvon case is credited as the cause of a small spree of hate crimes. And is going to lead to resentment either way.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 13, 2012, 10:09:23 PM
Shinra, don't be retarded.
She was in a house. Never mind that you're making assumptions about whether or not the projectile had a target. I think they disappear and are lodged in stucco, drywall and insulation.
I can't find a source on what gun Marissa Alexander was using, but I'm guessing it was a 9mm loaded with hollowpoints, which is pretty standard for handgun carry. It's possible she was carrying a smaller gun, but since she was licensed for concealed carry and had firearms training, I doubt it. The FBI does ammunition tests in a variety of scenarios. Tests 4 and 5 are most relevant here: Shots from 10 feet into either two half-inch pieces of drywall or a three-quarter inch piece of plywood. 18 inches behind the obstacle is a block of ballistic gel. The measurement is bullet penetration into the gelatin.

Depending on the load, most 9mm ammo penetrates the ballistic gel 12 to 15 inches AFTER passing through the drywall or plywood (there's no substantial difference between the two substances. This is a 10 foot shot through a wall and it penetrates a whole foot into a target 18 inches PAST the wall. In fact, shots through drywall can be MORE DANGEROUS than just shooting someone because drywall dust often gets sucked into the wound. I seem to recall seeing penetration of almost 2 feet with some ammunition but it's been a while since I was doing any gun/ammo research. The point is most things you find in a house aren't going to do shit to stop a bullet.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 13, 2012, 10:24:38 PM
Did not know a 9mm was that powerful. I'd more thought it would be more like half as much. The report I read said that the warning shot bullet hole was at the top of the kitchen wall, and didn't mention a second bullet hole entering the room where the children were. I'd guessed that the prosecution wouldn't let that detail go by unnoted and that it must have gotten lodged somewhere in the wall-stuffing, or roof insulation.

Still, no wounds. From a woman who had firearms training.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 13, 2012, 10:29:50 PM
Oh, so the 10-20-Life law, right? It's basically what I'd have wet dreams over if I were a slimeball politician.

The law says that any crime that involves a firearm has a 10 year minimum jailing.
Any crime that involves the discharge of a firearm as 20 years minimum.
Any crime that involves a firearm fatality goes to life.


So not only can you be all tough on crime with the right wingers, but you can position yourself as for gun controls with liberals.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 13, 2012, 10:39:27 PM
The report I read said that the warning shot bullet hole was at the top of the kitchen wall, and didn't mention a second bullet hole entering the room where the children were.
Yes, this is what actually happened. This does not change the fact that is a stupid fucking idea to intentionally fire a handgun into a wall regardless of the layout of your house or where you think your children may be in that house.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 14, 2012, 02:51:53 AM
Still, no wounds. From a woman who had firearms training.

I feel like this discussion has pretty much run his course and all I can do is repeat the same things while you call me racist, so I'm going to respond to this and then step away from the discussion:

1. Oh, good, no wounds. So I guess we can all just walk around firing our guns at things and as long as we don't hit anybody, that's A-OK

2. The fact that she did what she did is proof that whatever she learned from a firearms course did not stick in her brain. Here's how guns work: When you fire a gun, you should always, 100% of the time be aiming at and firing at your target, and you should be aiming to hit your target. In a self defense course they tell you to aim at center of mass. In a hunting safety course they tell you to not fire unless you are reasonably sure you can hit your target and are 100% sure you're not aiming at something you don't intend to kill, and that your shot won't hit something you don't intend to kill. Neither course accounts for 'firing to scare somebody/something or to make a point'. Because, as Rico pointed out, a bullet is a flying death missle that will cut through walls like they're paper and hit a fleshy target with a great deal of force.

We've already went over why she was convicted, we already went over why it was a reasonable conviction, but you have convinced yourself that this case is a product of institutionalized racism and that there is simply no other explaination. I think at this point there's nothing any of us can say to you that's going to get you to look at the facts of the case, and at that point there's simply no reason to even bother trying to debate you on this subject.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 14, 2012, 08:14:51 AM
I don't think it has much to do with relooking at the facts of the case so much as Classic has come right out and said he doesn't really understand self-defense/use of force legally and doesn't know much about firearms either.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 14, 2012, 10:22:13 AM
I feel like this discussion has pretty much run his course and all I can do is repeat the same things while you call me racist
I have not once in this conversation called you racist. I've made a point of it, because I have to assume you're not a racist to remain even vaguely civil. So don't accuse me of something I haven't done.

I also seem to have read more about the facts of this case than you have, although probably not about the surrounding case law, I expect we're both close to nil. So it'd be super if you stopped making giant-ass holes in your glass house.


We've already went over why she was convicted
There's not a "we" that includes you here, because the first of two things I'm trying to point out are that you seem to be inferring motive from facts irrelevant to that motive. I am not trying to convince you to do anything but look at the case more closely and not leap on a conclusion because you want or need SYG to be not inherently racist.

The second is this case, unlike the Trayvon Martin one, had an investigation and charges given like you'd imagine such things would occur in a society without institutionalized racism. Yet, we only got Zimmerman charges after a huge grassroots shitstorm. You've conceded that this is an example of institutionalized racism at work and that it's terrible.

The major things that we have not either agreed on or agreed to disagree on are: What alternatives did Marissa actually have (because according to her, she was trapped in her garage); Whether or not SYG is inherently racist or classist (which is what we were originally talking about); How long you will persist in making insulting strawmen like this one
1. Oh, good, no wounds. So I guess we can all just walk around firing our guns at things and as long as we don't hit anybody, that's A-OK
and this one
If somebody pulls a knife on me, and I run away, I don't get to run to the pawn shop, buy a firearm, come back and shoot them

Seriously?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 14, 2012, 10:56:35 AM
I went back and reread the beginning of this whole thing and, Classic, whatever points you're trying to make about the fairness or unfairness of Marissa's conviction are just really, really muddled because you don't understand self-defense laws, you don't seem to understand the major reason she was convicted (hint: Won't someone please think of the children), and the problems with minimum sentencing, NONE of which are applicable to the Zimmerman/Martin case.

I'm not really blaming you for any of this. The media reporting on both cases is shit awful, there's no real analysis available that's not just racially inflamed talking points on either side. But, honestly, it's probably better to give up on pushing the Alexander case or start another thread on it where you get off to a better start.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 14, 2012, 11:01:41 AM
I know i said I was done, but:

Quote
(because according to her, she was trapped in her garage);

Garage doors can be opened with a pully or a button. She didn't have her car keys, her husband didn't follow her in the garage, he wasn't waiting on the other side of the garage door. It's a bullshit argument. She has feet. She can walk. She has neighbors. There is a good chance they have telephones. Stop fucking saying she was trapped! It's like saying the fat lady can't shop at the wa-wa if all the scooters have already been taken!
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 14, 2012, 12:10:38 PM
Her claim is that the garage door was stuck. There's no real way to get more information on that, including whether the jury found it credible and included it in their deliberations, so both of you really ought to just ignore it entirely. I don't think her ability to retreat through the garage is that important; she deliberately armed herself and immediately returned.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 14, 2012, 12:29:25 PM
Shrina.
Just... Here's an article. Please read it.
From HuffPo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/11/marissa-alexander-sentenced_n_1510113.html)
Quote
She fled into the garage to escape but was trapped behind a jammed door, she stated in court documents
Do you have any articles you want me to read about this case or Florida case law, while we're at it?

I don't think her ability to retreat through the garage is that important; she deliberately armed herself and immediately returned.
I feel like I've made clear the source and the "iffiness" of her testimony. Though I haven't read how quickly she returned.
If we take her at her word that legitimate flight isn't an option, it seems like her viable choices were hide in the garage until the situation changed or enter the house and be at least threatened with additional violence.
And we really can't ignore it, because what her options actually were should be at the core of whether or not you consider this a SYG applicable scenario.

Classic, whatever points you're trying to make about the fairness or unfairness of Marissa's conviction
In spite of being really muddled, you picked up exactly what I thought was weird about her conviction. As in, why was establishing a different, equally severe crime, so important to establishing the invalidity of the SYG defense?


Alexander case or start another thread on it where you get off to a better start
The Marissa case was put here because it is most revealing as a comparison to the Zimmerman case. That Shinra and I have goaded each other into talking specifics isn't really what I had in mind. It seems like our major point of disagreement on the proceedings is that Shinra assumes the fairness and empathy of judge and jury across race and gender until shown otherwise. Where I consider, in light of evident institutionalized racism, not stopping to consider the what effects in terms of racial or gender bias are or might be is a tacit contribution to the problem, however small.

Since Shinra believes that justice has and is going to be served (at least regarding the assignment of guilt, not punishment), maybe he feels the two cases don't really merit the close comparison are getting at least in regards to how they highlight institutional racism. I think the differences between the process of making charges is already interesting and even with the media scrutiny for the Zimmerman proceedings I think it's going to continue to be interesting to contrast the two cases.

I wonder if the Zimmerman case is going to proceed as swiftly now that charges have actually been made. Although the defense teams have opposite goals in terms of how long they want the proceedings to take.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 14, 2012, 01:12:00 PM
Quote from: Classic
As in, why was establishing a different, equally severe crime, so important to establishing the invalidity of the SYG defense?
Because to be justified in using deadly force "she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm". Someone with firearms training choosing to draw just doesn't fire a warning shot if they feel under IMMINENT threat of death or great bodily harm.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on May 14, 2012, 01:13:26 PM
Wow, this thread sure blew up.

Sticking to just page 5 for now; may catch up with the others later.  Sorry if any of this is redundant.

I don't disagree, but the fact remains that more minority offenders are arrested and convicted for violent crime.

Okay, but that's not what you SAID.


Quote
A United States Department of Justice report which surveyed homicide statistics between 1974 and 2004 stated that of the crimes surveyed, 52.2% of the offenders were Black, 45.8% were White, and 2% were Other Races. Of the victims in those same crimes, 50.9% were White, 46.9% were Black, and 2.1% were Other Races. The report further stated that "most murders are intraracial" with 86% of White murders committed by Whites, and 94% of Black murders committed by Blacks.[21] However, the document does not provide any details concerning what races or ethnicities are included in the designations "White", "Black", or "Other Races".

Okay, those are good stats for what they are, and they do indeed support "most" rather than merely "a disproportionate number".  Thanks for the link.

But what you ORIGINALLY said was indeed "commit", not "are arrested and convicted for".  The stats are not necessarily indicative of actual commission of crimes, for reasons TA has pointed out and the Wikipedia article itself points out.

I'm not saying the law does not set up situations like these, I am saying the law is not (as you are implying) inherently racist and is not directly furthering the pervasive racism in our society.

Well, I disagree utterly.

The definition of "threatening" is so vague that it must, perforce, take the ground-standerer's own biases into account.

I will not deny that, as a symptom of other factors, it has managed to for lack of a better term, put a racial group in it's sights. Get rid of SYG because it let an idiot like George Zimmerman with extremely poor judgement murder a child, not because of some perception that it's making racism worse in this country.

I maintain that if he had murdered a white child, the police would not have let him go free.

I grant that this is a hypothetical, but do you know of any examples of SYG being successfully employed in a minority-on-white killing, against an unarmed victim?  Let alone a minor?

I'm not assuming that they're comprehensive, but I'm also not buying the opposite assumption that Whites are committing enough crimes to equalize the table but they're just not being tried for any of them.

I don't see why not.

Per your quoted section, the gap between black and white perps, on murder alone, is about 6 points.

Now, that "white" statistic includes Hispanics (because Hispanic is not a race).  It's not immediately clear to me how it breaks down on Anglo/Hispanic lines.

That said, if you broaden from murder alone to "violent crime" in general?  Yeah, I think Anglos could cross that 50% threshold.

Can we agree that a greater amount of crime is committed by persons at, just above, and below the poverty line?

Can we agree that a greater percentage of persons at, above and below that line are minorities, mostly due to institutionalized racism as I've already discussed?

Depends what you mean by "a greater percentage" and how far "above" you draw that line.  Are you claiming that there are merely a disproportionate number of minorities around the poverty line than in the general population, or are you claiming that a MAJORITY -- ie, more than 50% -- of people living in poverty are minorities?

Because the former is correct, and the 2010 census data you linked seems to imply that the latter is -- at least in the case of children, and where you don't consider anything above the poverty line at all.

A couple demographic caveats: it's not juveniles who are committing the majority of those crimes; poor people statistically have more children; Latinos in particular are likely to come from a culture that encourages larger families.  So all those things could be skewing the (fairly dramatic) results in that "Children Under 18 Living in Poverty" chart.

And that's before we tackle the "above that line" phrase.  How far above?  The farther you get, obviously, the closer you get to the median income.  What do the numbers look like, say at $1000/year above the poverty line?  $5000?  $10000?

SYG is not racist, it's classist.

Weeeeell, it's both.

I would tend to agree that a racial minority in a suit and tie is less likely to pass the vague definition of "threatening" than a white guy in a wife-beater.  BUT I would hypothesize that, if we were to do a Brown v Board doll test (note: Fredric Wertham was not all bad!), a member of a racial minority would be classified as "threatening" more frequently than a white person with an identical build and outfit.

(And that's without even beginning to get into cases where clothing can denote both "rich" AND "thuggish" -- which begins to take us into the subject of organized crime, which is a whole other can of worms.)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 14, 2012, 01:47:25 PM
Someone with firearms training choosing to draw just doesn't fire a warning shot if they feel under IMMINENT threat of death or great bodily harm.
But then you're saying she'd have a better claim to a SYG defense if she had shot him. Aren't you?

Where is the possibility that she did not want to inflict death or great bodily harm on her spouse even though she'd just finished being beaten and is afraid for her life?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 14, 2012, 01:50:14 PM
Yes, that's probably correct. It's also certainly possible that she didn't want to kill him, but then she shouldn't have used deadly force nor tried to claim self-defense when she did so.

(My kingdom for a court transcript)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 14, 2012, 02:04:16 PM
The sad truth in this case is that she would have been in a MUCH better position if she had just murdered the man, because she would not have endangered any children (directly) and could make a much better argument of it being a spur of the moment, fear-based thing.

The bead I'm getting on SYG is that Florida's implementation of it (and not necessarily how it's written) uses intent as something of a backwards litmus test: If you DIDN'T fully intend to kill the victim, you clearly weren't scared enough, and therefore can't claim protection under Stand Your Ground.

Given everything I know about conservatives this makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on May 14, 2012, 02:05:55 PM
Yup. The true madness of SYG is that it encourages you to shoot to kill because corpses can't tell their side.

I can't remember it off-hand and I'll try to come back later tonight with it, but two big cases were one where a man is talking to a 911 operator about two minorities stealing a TV, talks himself into murdering them, heads out and does it, and walks free. I think the name was Horner something, but again I'll be back a bit later with it.

The other was a guy who chases down a guy stealing stereos, stabs him to death, takes the stereos and pawns them, and then claims self-defense. And walks free on that. Yup.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 14, 2012, 02:09:40 PM
It also encourages you to shoot to kill because you know the other person will.

...this isn't quite how I imagined Florida erupting into a massive open shooutout in the streets.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 14, 2012, 02:10:10 PM
You shouldn't shoot or even pull a gun if you're not intending to shoot to kill. This doesn't have anything to do with any particular law. That it does work as a backwards litmus test for whether you felt like you were in imminent danger of death is just kind of a happy accident for prosecuting attorneys.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 14, 2012, 02:12:06 PM
Well, good point, but in normal circumstances that would only determine whether you should be charged with gross misconduct with a firearm.

Also, "shoot to hit" is probably a more apt term.  And yes I know that any bullet wound is potentially fatal.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 14, 2012, 02:22:49 PM
You shouldn't... even pull a gun if you're not intending to shoot to kill.

I've never really understood the rationale behind this. I get that firearms are deadly by design and that it's generally more difficult to maim than to slay.

Is it a prisoner's dilemma type scenario where the game-theory strategy is to only draw with intent to kill?
Or is it that statistically speaking adding a weapon to the mix tends to escalate violence rather than calm it down?

EDIT:
To quote selection to make inquiry more clear.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 14, 2012, 02:25:19 PM
Partly escalation, partly that stray bullets are to be avoided at all costs for the exact reasons demonstrated in this scenario.  This is not something that does not get mentioned when you're first handed a pistol.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 14, 2012, 02:49:20 PM
I mean, okay.  I've skipped most of this current conversation but I think we're all in agreement that the woman needed to go to jail for SOMETHING.  Throwing out SYG on the aggravated assault charge is still wrong, though.  The idea that you can't arm yourself before entering a dangerous situation basically invalidates the entire argument behind personal carry; when a conversation in your own home turns into a honest death threat, SYG basically says that drawing and firing is what you're SUPPOSED to do, regardless of the situation.  You can nail her on illegal use of firearms, personal and child endangerment, and a couple other things, but none of those are aggravated assault with a minimum 20 year sentence.  It's the greedy attack of a prosecutor who thinks "justice is served" means bending the law and jury opinion as much as he has to to get someone in jail as long as he can, regardless of appropriateness.  It's just about scoring points, really.  Fuck you.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 14, 2012, 03:02:20 PM
Child endangerment in this case IS aggravated assault, though, due to Florida law escalating any situation with a gun being drawn.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 14, 2012, 03:08:44 PM
Oh right.  Because they got her on aggravated assault against her kids too.

Which is... still definitely bending the intent of the law, but you're probably going to have a really rough time arguing that one.  Ugh.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 14, 2012, 03:16:29 PM
Yeah, the combination of that and the 10-20-life sentencing is pretty fucked.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 14, 2012, 03:25:34 PM
I think we're all in agreement that the woman needed to go to jail for SOMETHING.
I'm not so sure we're all in agreement on jail, but she and her spouse have definitely done some illegal things as part of the lead-up to this decision.

The real kicker is that while out on bail she gets involved in another altercation with her spouse. Her side of the story has her dropping off their child and trying to get him to make sure one (I forget which) of their children remained insured. His side says she went nuts after he rebuffed her request to stay overnight. Either way, she disobeyed a no contact order and bail conditions. I don't believe that the supervising attorney (who's a lady, by the way) and state was ever going to consider a plea for probation though.

Mostly though I've got a personal vendetta against habit wife-beaters, so I'm inclined to give the victims of domestic violence the benefit of the doubt. From the HuffPo article:
Quote
Gray himself admitted in a deposition to abusing "all five of his babies' mamas except one," and to hitting Alexander.
So yeah, it took a lot of effort to keep as "cool" as I was.


EDIT:
Red to help make the sentiment clearer.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Doom on May 14, 2012, 03:39:37 PM
Joe Horn case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy), where-in it's OK to kill two men over property. Some proto-SYG action.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 14, 2012, 03:45:59 PM
Yeah, the combination of that and the 10-20-life sentencing is pretty fucked.

Well, sort of.  Two counts of child endangerment with an illegally discharged firearm could easily go up to 15 years, and I have no problem with that.  It feels like the prosecutor ignored that inarguable actual charge and went with something worth a few extra points, and that's where I start getting really angry.

I'm not so sure we're all in agreement on jail

Dude, she fired into a room full of children.  Malicious or not, if one of the purposes of jail isn't "keep people like this away from rooms full of children until they get their heads back on straight" then I think we're officially living in Constantine's world.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 14, 2012, 04:21:33 PM
She didn't fire into a room full of children, she fired while facing a wall shared with a room full of children. No, I don't believe it makes much difference to how much risk she exposed her children to.

But you're right man. If prisons were the kind of sanitarium I'd like them to be I'd agree 100%, but that's not actually how most prisons are run. By and large, they're punitive institutions and some are apparently run by sociopaths or come-sociopaths. Jails are seldom better.
Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_States#Prison_system)
Now, if Marissa had shot and wounded or slain her spouse I'd say jailing was totally warranted, but generally I'm opposed to incarceration for first offenses because of how often prison terms destroy a person's ability to be a productive member of society rather than restoring it. Though this is really Roast Beef's pet cause.

Again, what's frustrating me here is that Marissa was in a bad situation. The reason that she's being punished seems to be because she didn't meet a moving goalpost for balancing the welfare of her children and her own (and, of course because institutionalized racism). As risky and against prescription as her choice of "target" was, I feel (right, not think, feel) firing at her spouse would have been riskier for her children on a miss and hindered their welfare on the same order as her current prison sentence.

We don't have what we need to actually determine if encountering her spouse in the kitchen was a necessity, but since my sympathies immediately go out to battered spouses I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt.


EDIT:
Added punctuation.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 14, 2012, 05:28:35 PM
She didn't fire into a room full of children, she fired while facing a wall shared with a room full of children. No, I don't believe it makes much difference to how much risk she exposed her children to.
And we're done, ladies and gentlemen.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on May 14, 2012, 05:58:18 PM
You shouldn't shoot or even pull a gun if you're not intending to shoot to kill.

I've never really understood the rationale behind this. I get that firearms are deadly by design and that it's generally more difficult to maim than to slay.

Is it a prisoner's dilemma type scenario where the game-theory strategy is to only draw with intent to kill?
Or is it that statistically speaking adding a weapon to the mix tends to escalate violence rather than calm it down?

The whole shoot to wound thing is a movie trope. The police don't do it, swat doesn't do it, the military don't do it. (edit: the military DO shoot to miss: This is called suppression, and you can see how good that is at totally not killing people by looking at the civilian body counts in Iraq and Afghanistan) Security guards aren't trained to do it. The reason why is simple: A bullet does not always (or often) do a lot of damage to a given area it hits. Certainly not a small caliber round like a 9mm pistol round, but even 45 and 50 caliber handgun ammunition isn't going to blow somebody's arm off or even necessarily knock them on their ass. Adrenaline is nature's best painkiller. You aim for center of mass because you are more likely to cripple or kill your target. A bullet severing the spine or puncturing a lung or the heart can potentially put down a killer. And even when you do hit your target with intent to kill, say, with a shotgun blast to the head (http://www.rrmemphis.com/op030.html) you're not even guaranteed to end the fight. If you haven't figured this out yet: If you are not trying to kill your target, you have a much better chance of bringing your target down with a baseball bat than you do with a low caliber pistol.


In a self defense scenario when you draw a firearm you are engaging a deterrent. When you discharge your firearm, you are discharging to kill your attacker. If you aim to miss or aim to wound you are not likely to end the engagement and when you bring a weapon into a situation and begin discharging it, you're one wrestled firearm away from being killed by your own weapon. These are all things they teach you in any basic firearm safety class. A gun is not a toy, and it's not a taser.

I hate to quote Saturday Night Special, but it's a saturday night special, it's got a barrel that's blue and cold. It ain't good for nothin', but put a man six feet in a hole.

Quote
Quote

    Gray himself admitted in a deposition to abusing "all five of his babies' mamas except one," and to hitting Alexander.

So yeah, it took a lot of effort to keep as "cool" as I was.

"But officer, he was a piece of shit" is not a valid defense in any court of law, as much as we'd like it to be.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 14, 2012, 07:38:06 PM
And we're done, ladies and gentlemen.
Christ Jesus, if I can't trust you to finish at least skimming a post of course there's no discussion!

Oh, thanks Shinra, you made me realize that I omitted something in my rush to post. Which is already clarified in a following post, but should be edited in to both.
Mostly though I've got a personal vendetta against habit wife-beaters, so I'm inclined to give the victims of domestic violence the benefit of the doubt. From the HuffPo article:
Quote
Gray himself admitted in a deposition to abusing "all five of his babies' mamas except one," and to hitting Alexander.

So yeah, it took a lot of effort to keep as "cool" as I was.

"But officer, he was a piece of shit" is not a valid defense in any court of law, as much as we'd like it to be.
Thanks also for making my comment into another strawman, balancing out what was otherwise an almost respectful post.
I like the way you constructed this one though.
"But officer, he was threatening


Apparently I'm obligated to point out where you make up stuff that I'm saying, so I'll add this:
The whole shoot to wound thing is something no one suggested is actually done or is relevant to either of the SYG cases we're talking about
Just wanted to make that clear.
Going to go back and add emphasis on "pull", because you need to actually read the whole post to understand that I'm talking specifically about drawing without intent shoot (http://brontoforum.us/index.php?topic=6326.msg230486#msg230486).
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 14, 2012, 09:03:16 PM
the military DO shoot to miss: This is called suppression, and you can see how good that is at totally not killing people by looking at the civilian body counts in Iraq and Afghanistan

Err, technically suppression means anything that will neutralize the target, including just plain taking it out.  The specific application of suppression that you're probably referring to, pinning down, still implies that if something hostile enters the kill zone you should, you know, kill it.

The vagueness of the terminology is 100% intentional since it sounds offhand like they're just doing general cover fire over an area and those stupid villagers keep somehow walking into it, instead of the actual usage where a gunship or bomber sets up a kill zone over a populated area and immediately suppresses the fuck out of everything in it.

Anyway, back to this less depressing topic.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 17, 2012, 07:51:15 PM
HOLY SHIT HE WAS SMOKING THE REEFER AT SOME POINT IN THE LAST WEEK THE WACKY WEED MADE HIM HOPPED UP ON DOPE AND A VICIOUS GANGBANGING ATTACK MACHINE

Hey, look, I write at an AP level!
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 17, 2012, 08:08:27 PM
Are you going to point to a specific inane report trying to demonize Trayvon for (ever) using recreational drugs, or are you just upset that it's happened at all?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 17, 2012, 08:11:19 PM
The specific one I was looking at went in and re-edited the order of its story and deleted its comment thread where it was getting called out for it, but most every AP newspaper has a giant THC FOUND IN SYSTEM headline right now.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Royal☭ on May 17, 2012, 09:05:56 PM
Wait are they trying to play up that a recreational drug that pacifies a person made him violent? Of course, I did see other reports about how Zimmerman was on Aderall and some other shit.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on May 18, 2012, 05:28:43 AM
All drugs make people violent with the exception of cigarettes and alcohol.

This message brought to you by Molson-Coors and Philip Morris.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Disposable Ninja on May 18, 2012, 06:50:32 AM
No, no, see, that Treyvon used drugs means he wasn't a perfect angel stolen from this world by the monster that is racism given human form. In fact, quite the opposite, it means he was just another Scary Black Thug whom Zimmerman was entirely justified in following around and then being forced to shoot.

Because those are the only two extreme that are allowed to exist.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on May 18, 2012, 10:48:11 AM
"But officer, he was a piece of shit" is not a valid defense in any court of law, as much as we'd like it to be.

Define "valid".

Because if you mean "effective", then it sure as fuck IS.

I think the problem here is that you're approaching our legal system from the perspective of its platonic ideal instead of how it actually works in real life.

Wait are they trying to play up that a recreational drug that pacifies a person made him violent?

REEFER MADNESS, my friend.

No, no, see, that Treyvon used drugs means he wasn't a perfect angel stolen from this world by the monster that is racism given human form. In fact, quite the opposite, it means he was just another Scary Black Thug whom Zimmerman was entirely justified in following around and then being forced to shoot.

Because those are the only two extreme that are allowed to exist.

Sadly, yeah that's a pretty accurate description of the discourse.

The latest evidence indicates Zimmerman was beaten.  Pretty badly.  That still doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me given their relative sizes.

But even if Martin attacked him, it does bear noting that the guy was following him and engaged him even though he'd been told not to.  Martin had good reason to believe he was in danger, and, as Rico notes, ironically could have had a case under SYG.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 18, 2012, 11:30:41 AM
My thought about Martin hitting Zimmerman has always been that it took too long to come out and there are too many suspicious holes for Martin to have started the fight.

My assumption is that Zimmerman had the gun out before Martin attacked. The rear head wounds don't match up with being repeatedly slammed into the ground. It doesn't make sense that, with Martin on top and attacking that Zimmerman could effectively draw without Martin being able to stop it.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on May 18, 2012, 11:59:48 AM
I haven't read up on all of the new (improved!) details coming out in the Zimmerman case, mostly because I got sick of it when pundits started speculating on who may have had drugs in their system (a month ago). How do the wounds not match up with being repeatedly slammed into the ground?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on May 18, 2012, 12:25:22 PM
Just look at a single picture. There are three main shallow wounds. The longer ones are probably from the fall, because that's the only time that kind of momentum is in play. You'd expect more and worse trauma right around the blood clot on the middle of his head.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Royal☭ on May 18, 2012, 01:05:48 PM
Turns out the Sanford police agreed, Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of his car after they told him not to. (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/trayvon_martin_unavoidable_documents_george_zimmerman.php?ref=fpnewsfeed)

Things don't look good for Zimmerman, even if he was attacked. Which, you know, those of us who aren't racist realized from the get-go. As reprehensible a law as Stand Your Ground is, even it's most ardent supporters will usually concede, that yeah, it doesn't give you a right to go looking for trouble.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on May 18, 2012, 01:48:26 PM
Well, it'll be interesting to see who was standing whose ground.  "Mortal terror" is about the only explanation I have for Martin being able to do what they claim he did.

I mean, unless he really did transcend the drug horizon and learn the secret and dangerous art of Weed Rage.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on June 04, 2012, 08:56:33 AM
OKAY SO

Just in case you haven't been keeping up with this case, over the weekend, Zimmerman's bond was revoked and he was returned to jail (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/george_zimmerman_back_in_jail.html) after it was revealed that he and his wife lied to the judge about how much money he had, going so far as to speak in code(albeit a really stupid one) when she called him while he was in jail the first time.

As a result of this, donations to his legal fund have increased. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmermans-donations-spike-return-jail/story?id=16490782&fb_ref=.T8znBXS5bD4.like&fb_source=home_multiline)

I don't want to live on this planet anymore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35TbGjt-weA#ws)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on June 04, 2012, 09:44:46 AM
Again, fools parting with their money doesn't bother me a bit.  I'd like to drag this thing out just so he can get more.  It's not like the bundle of cash is going to do him any good when he inevitably does something stupid enough to land himself either in a prison cell or in a grave.

Personally I'd just like to see how much of this money is coming out of welfare.  Making idiots' heads explode has never proven very effective, but it's still fun.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on June 04, 2012, 09:53:01 AM
Again, fools parting with their money doesn't bother me a bit.  I'd like to drag this thing out just so he can get more.  It's not like the bundle of cash is going to do him any good when he inevitably does something stupid enough to land himself either in a prison cell or in a grave.

Perjury is a pretty serious crime, isn't it?

EDIT: Of course, we're talking about a guy who may literally get away with murder, so...
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on June 04, 2012, 10:54:14 AM
More importantly, when the entirety of your case rests on your version of the story being believable, you probably shouldn't start out your bail hearing by lying repeatedly to a judge. I'm sure the prosecutor rubbed one out.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on June 05, 2012, 11:54:04 AM
I actually read an article on cnn a day before he was ordered back to jail saying that there was no way Zimmerman would get convicted, and how that was terrible.

You know, as cynical as I am, I think it's looking increasingly more likely that Zimmerman is fucked. I feel terrible for his lawyer.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on June 05, 2012, 04:00:13 PM
Why? Win or lose, he's gonna be famous.

what's his name again
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: on June 05, 2012, 04:08:38 PM
He's going to be famous to racists for killing a black guy, and he's going to be infamous to people like the group that put out a bounty on his head.

Either way, it's not a good famous.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on June 05, 2012, 04:21:34 PM
Not good for who?  Any random entry in his journal will make it clear that becoming a martyr for the cause of murdering people you don't like is an achievement beyond any he ever hoped to attain.  He is the happiest little shit in the world right now.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on June 05, 2012, 04:51:02 PM
I was referring to the dude's lawyer, who is just doing his job and will go down in history as the guy who defended a loser in the most high profile murder trial in years.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on June 05, 2012, 04:57:01 PM
I was referring to his lawyer too. The guy's probably already got a book deal down the pipe.

Also: 73% of people that used "Stand Your Ground" after killing a black person went free (http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/06/race_plays_complex_role_in_floridas_stand_your_ground_law.html).
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Royal☭ on June 09, 2012, 05:34:06 AM
It just keeps happening (http://crooksandliars.com/kenneth-quinnell/another-unarmed-black-youth-gun-0)

Quote
Darius Simmons was by all accounts a good kid. The fun loving 6th grader was simply moving a garbage can in front of his home when his neighbor, 75 year old John Henry Spooner confronted him with a [9mm hand gun]* and accused him of stealing from his home. Darius, who was in school the time of the robbery, denied being involved with the theft. John Henry Spooner then proceed to shoot Darius in his chest, while he had his hands raise showing Spooner he was unarmed. His mom, who was watching in horror, ran to Darius to see if she could find a pulse, she couldn’t. Darius, 13 years old and unarmed, was murdered in cold blood in front of his mother.

Now, this isn't a "Stand Your Ground" case like the Martin/Zimmerman shooting. In fact, it'd almost qualify as just another suburban murder, if not for the details that the victim was a 13-year old black kid, the 75-year-old a gun toting maniac, and little details from the story like:

Quote
Simmons is one of 30 black people killed this year alone by people working in law enforcement or legitimate or illegitimate "security" work. 16 of these killings have happened since Trayvon Martin was killed by George Zimmerman.

We sure are just gunning down a lot of black people on the street. But why?

Quote
...Spooner confronted him with a [9mm hand gun]* and accused him of stealing from his home. Darius, who was in school the time of the robbery, denied being involved with the theft.

This is almost the exact same reason George Zimmerman gave for stalking Trayvon Martin. What is it about a black youth just standing in the street that makes gun-wielding types think they've committed a crime? Read a good article about the right-wing media's obsessions with a black-on-white race war (http://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/2012/06/right-wing-medias-twisted-dark-fantasy.html). While the race war delusion is probably not the reason this nut decided to go out and shoot an unarmed kid in the chest, it has roots in the view of blacks as "the violent other" who must be watched and controlled.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on June 09, 2012, 05:52:56 AM
We sure are just gunning down a lot of black people on the street.

Jesus Galloping Christ. This isn't even slightly hyperbolic anymore.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on June 12, 2012, 12:53:26 PM

Perjury is a pretty serious crime, isn't it?


YEP (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-06-12/news/os-george-zimmerman-wife-arrested-20120612_1_perjury-charge-prosecutors-deputies)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Royal☭ on July 19, 2012, 11:11:55 AM
Zimmerman states that killing Trayvon was part of "God's plan" (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/1034474/george_zimmerman_says_he_wouldn%27t_do_anything_differently%3A_%22it_was_god%27s_plan%22_for_me_to_kill_trayvon_martin/)

He also insists he has no regrets and there was nothing he could have done differently to prevent killing that boy.

What is the mindset of people who still support this guy? Because I want that mindset taken off the streets.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on July 19, 2012, 11:30:28 AM
Zimmerman states that killing Trayvon was part of "God's plan" (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/1034474/george_zimmerman_says_he_wouldn%27t_do_anything_differently%3A_%22it_was_god%27s_plan%22_for_me_to_kill_trayvon_martin/)

I imagine Zimmerman's lawyer told him before the interview to give people the impression he found God to make him more sympathetic. I imagine when he said 'Shooting Trayvon Martin was part of God's plan', Zimmerman's lawyer probably chewed up a couple of baby asprin, ate half a bottle of tums, and looked longingly at the 38 revolver he keeps in his belt.


Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: DestyNova on July 19, 2012, 04:53:36 PM
Go for the Temporary Insanity plea?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on July 19, 2012, 05:07:26 PM
That could work, for a definition of temporary which spans a timeframe of years.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on July 19, 2012, 06:53:18 PM
Wouldn't that mean he'd have to give back all that Paypal money?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on July 19, 2012, 07:20:17 PM
Lunacy never demands refunds.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on August 01, 2012, 10:56:49 AM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/31/florida-man-charged-with-hate-crime-says-he-only-shot-a-ngger/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/31/florida-man-charged-with-hate-crime-says-he-only-shot-a-ngger/)

(http://4.asset.soup.io/asset/0947/0036_8ef9.gif)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Disposable Ninja on August 01, 2012, 11:03:04 AM
well. okay.

fuck humanity. fuck everything.

fuck that guy.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on August 01, 2012, 11:08:07 AM
Barrack Obama - Ignorant Motherfuckers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HPW8gsZD1w#)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Zaratustra on August 15, 2012, 08:28:15 AM
Awkward: Medal of Honor site now "partners" with gun manufacturers.

http://www.medalofhonor.com/partners (http://www.medalofhonor.com/partners)

So basically, weapon manufacturers feel it profitable to give money to a company that will show their products shooting people.

How exactly do I keep the "no, videogames don't cause gun violence" spiel with that on?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: TA on August 15, 2012, 08:40:05 AM
Awkward: Medal of Honor site now "partners" with gun manufacturers.

http://www.medalofhonor.com/partners (http://www.medalofhonor.com/partners)

So basically, weapon manufacturers feel it profitable to give money to a company that will show their products shooting people.

How exactly do I keep the "no, videogames don't cause gun violence" spiel with that on?


"No, videogames don't cause gun violence, but gun manufacturers sure wish they did."  The villain here is the company using product placement for instruments of murder.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on August 15, 2012, 08:55:30 AM
I don't think people who aren't already disposed to gun violence are playing the new Medal of Honor.

...

I don't think people who ARE already disposed to gun violence are playing the new Medal of Honor.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Royal☭ on September 19, 2012, 07:19:27 PM
Apparently, none of Trayvon's DNA could be found on the gun he was allegedly trying to steal from Zimmerman (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/19/trayvon-martins-dna-george-zimmerman-gun_n_1897356.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009)


Huh, how about that.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Shinra on November 28, 2012, 01:35:05 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/28/us/florida-music-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 (http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/28/us/florida-music-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)

Well, they were playing their music really loud and I felt threatened. After I confronted them. About playing their music too loud.

In public.

At a gas station.

That I voluntarily chose to go to, and voluntarily chose to get confrontational with someone at.

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on November 28, 2012, 09:55:46 AM
Quote
Jacksonville

...
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ocksi on November 28, 2012, 12:02:05 PM
I recently spent several months in (southern GA, right outside of) Jacksonville and I learned that place is cartoonishly racist. While I was there, they passed a law saying that anyone whose pants were too low would get a citation.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on May 26, 2013, 11:37:55 PM
http://wonkette.com/517519/george-zimmerman-was-understandably-threatened-by-travyon-martins-cell-phone-picture-of-a-gun (http://wonkette.com/517519/george-zimmerman-was-understandably-threatened-by-travyon-martins-cell-phone-picture-of-a-gun)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on May 28, 2013, 02:49:54 AM
Fortunately, the judge has declared those pictures inadmissible (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/05/28/trayvon-martin-testimony-trial/2365367/), as well as Trayvon's school records, the fact that he may have owned gold teeth(seriously), or any of the other incidental bullshit the defense was trying to use to portray him in a negative light.

The trial is set to go forward on June 10th. ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FUHBAWL RACISM?

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: McDohl on May 28, 2013, 10:05:41 AM
Everyone, including a scumbag like George Zimmerman, is entitled to a defense, unless he waives it.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: patito on May 28, 2013, 10:22:47 AM
uh. no one is denying zimmerman a defense here, so I don't what that has to do with anything.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: McDohl on May 28, 2013, 09:00:08 PM
I know.  All I'm saying there is that the lawyers there have to make every attempt to give him that fair defense.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Joxam on May 28, 2013, 09:10:22 PM
yup, a fair defense, the kind that implies gold teeth and taking the reefer gives you probable cause to shoot someone
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: McDohl on May 28, 2013, 09:15:07 PM
I'm not saying they're not grasping at straws.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on May 29, 2013, 12:03:32 AM
Yeah, "fair defense" doesn't include defamation of character.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on May 29, 2013, 02:10:47 AM
Not that I have the utmost faith in a Florida jury, but I like to think that if the defense actually DID get to use that "evidence" it wouldn't work out so well for them.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: TA on May 29, 2013, 03:58:38 AM
I know.  All I'm saying there is that the lawyers there have to make every attempt to give him that fair defense.

Defense attorneys are obligated to give their clients a zealous defense, but that doesn't cover acts that would violate their code of professional responsibility, or the Constitution.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mothra on June 29, 2013, 06:37:14 AM
Worth a watch:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-25-2013/presumed-guiltocent (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-25-2013/presumed-guiltocent)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Lottel on June 29, 2013, 11:15:24 AM
You know, I think that's the first priest/rabbi joke I've ever actually heard go passed "So a priest and a rabbi-"
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on July 05, 2013, 05:28:07 AM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/05/zimmerman-lawyer-urges-trayvons-mom-to-admit-her-son-caused-his-own-death/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/05/zimmerman-lawyer-urges-trayvons-mom-to-admit-her-son-caused-his-own-death/)

 :disapprove:
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: François on July 05, 2013, 05:57:00 AM
isn't there some sort of rule somewhere that you can be disbarred if you try to insinuate a mother doesn't know her own son's voice
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on July 05, 2013, 10:26:20 AM
He's probably at risk for dismemberment, to be certain.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on July 05, 2013, 12:38:46 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/JfMqj0W.gif)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Royal☭ on July 13, 2013, 01:14:35 PM
Zimmerman found not guilty.

I hope Florida burns to the ground.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mothra on July 13, 2013, 01:18:34 PM
:bam:
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: on July 13, 2013, 01:30:51 PM
Batman: The Animated Series - 40 If You're So Smart, Why Aren't You Rich HD - The Riddler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDwZhDA5t6c#)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: TA on July 13, 2013, 01:41:44 PM
Not guilty of murder is bullshit, obviously, but not guilty of manslaughter?

This is why, when someone says they're a fan of jury nullification, I dismiss anything they ever have to say.  Because that's exactly what this is.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on July 13, 2013, 01:56:55 PM
(http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/McClain142/florida_zps4faf54a8.gif)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on July 13, 2013, 01:58:13 PM
I can't say I'm surprised, but I sure as fuck am disappointed.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on July 13, 2013, 02:04:22 PM
My understanding is that the prosecution fucked up, tacking on Manslaughter only as an option in the close of the trial as it was becoming clear they were losing the second-degree murder charge.

Which isn't really much of a consolation.

Morbid bets on which parts of Florida are on fire by morning?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on July 13, 2013, 02:58:56 PM
Right.  The initial charge was that Zimmerman specifically intended to kill rather than stop Martin with his fatal shot, which can't be proved, or that he assaulted Martin without provocation leading to his death, which wasn't proved.

Manslaughter is a charge that is obvious given the unchallenged information - that he ignored a direct order from the authorities, that he provoked a citizen while armed without authorization or instruction, and that his handling of the situation, regardless of Martin's reaction, is the direct cause of Martin's death - but none of this was properly presented at trial so that charge tumbled off too.

If Justice is to be served at all here, the next step is put the prosecution under extreme scrutiny in order to see if they're simply dangerously incompetent or actually part of the deep sickness that has clearly been festering in that area.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: TA on July 13, 2013, 03:19:16 PM
The thing is, adding the manslaughter charge does make sense.  Zimmerman's entire claim is based on imperfect self defense, but that's a defense that means not guilty of murder and guilty of manslaughter.  Which is why this doesn't make any sense at all.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Joxam on July 13, 2013, 03:28:53 PM
My understanding on adding the manslaughter charges at the end of the trial is that it is common practice because you don't want to torpedo your murder case by making the jury feel like your not sure enough in your case from the get go. That's not saying they didn't fuck up throughout the trial.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on July 13, 2013, 07:16:16 PM
Stunned and infuriated as I am, my mind still goes to "What can we do to salvage this?"

First: civil wrongful death suit.

Second: if there's not already a petition to repeal Stand Your Ground, start one.  Not just in Florida but in EVERY state with an SYG law.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: on July 13, 2013, 10:52:14 PM
Zimmerman did not invoke Stand Your Ground for his defense (http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/30/justice/florida-zimmerman-defense)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on July 14, 2013, 12:04:09 AM
Quote from: McClain
Zimmerman is America. He thought he was an action hero coming to save the day, but it turns out he was just an idiot with a gun, and he killed a kid and never denied it and he got away with it.

The greatest country on earth, right?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Smiler on July 14, 2013, 01:49:15 AM
Hell, in my city two days ago there was a rolling shootout that went on for about 2 miles because a guy flashed a gun at another guy, and his defense for starting the shootout was "IF I DIDN'T STOP HIM, WHAT IF THE NEXT GUY HE FLASHED A GUN AT DIDN'T HAVE A GUN?" And people still wonder why it might be a bad idea to let everyone carry their gun in public.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: jsnlxndrlv on July 14, 2013, 02:22:11 AM
First: civil wrongful death suit.

Reddit is terrible, but I just read this exchange and started wondering:

Quote
[–]drhuntzzz 163 points 12 hours ago
Wrongful death suit coming up next...
permalinkparent
[–]Mr_Yeshuite 237 points 11 hours ago
i could be wrong, as i work in law in another state, but i believe that florida law protects you from a civil suit if you succeed with a self defense claim.
permalinkparent
[–]DeuxBoy 186 points 11 hours ago
You are correct. Zimmerman would most likely be granted immunity.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on July 14, 2013, 02:42:06 AM
Quote from: McClain
Zimmerman is America. He thought he was an action hero coming to save the day, but it turns out he was just an idiot with a gun, and he killed a kid and never denied it and he got away with it.

The greatest country on earth, right?

McClain who? The McClain sisters?

Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: R^2 on July 14, 2013, 03:43:26 AM
Sounds like something McClain from Talking Time might say.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: TA on July 14, 2013, 04:19:27 AM
First: civil wrongful death suit.

Reddit is terrible, but I just read this exchange and started wondering:

Quote
[–]drhuntzzz 163 points 12 hours ago
Wrongful death suit coming up next...
permalinkparent
[–]Mr_Yeshuite 237 points 11 hours ago
i could be wrong, as i work in law in another state, but i believe that florida law protects you from a civil suit if you succeed with a self defense claim.
permalinkparent
[–]DeuxBoy 186 points 11 hours ago
You are correct. Zimmerman would most likely be granted immunity.

Preeeeetty sure that's bullshit.  I'd like to see a cite other than "a Florida law", since that's not how criminal trials work at all, but I also wouldn't put it past Florida lawmakers to not understand the laws they're writing.

You don't "succeed" a self-defense claim.  The jury finds that the state proved your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and thus finds you guilty, or they find that the state didn't prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and finds you not guilty.  They don't enter explanations into the record, and a not guilty finding where you claimed self defense doesn't mean the jury finds that you acted in self defense, and doesn't mean that a jury can't find in a later trial that you wrongfully killed that kid by a preponderance of the evidence.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on July 14, 2013, 05:58:35 AM
The entire purpose of the civil suit system is to pick up where the criminal trial system fails, but like TA said that only matters if the lawmakers themselves understand the law.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Thad on July 14, 2013, 08:19:32 AM
Blog post: Robert Zimmerman versus George Zimmerman (http://www.corporate-sellout.com/index.php/2013/07/14/you-who-philosophize-disgrace-and-criticize-all-fears/).

Mark Evanier has a couple good (http://www.newsfromme.com/2013/07/11/my-only-post-probably-about-the-george-zimmerman-trial/) posts (http://www.newsfromme.com/2013/07/13/saturday-evening-10/) on the subject; I've little to add at the moment beyond overwhelming cynicism.  (Sample: Zimmerman WAS innocent under Florida law because he did exactly what the law was designed to protect.)

Not ready to take the rag away from my face.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on July 14, 2013, 08:54:44 AM
Interestingly, up here even the totally conservative rag paper is describing it as "Trayvon's killer aquitted" (the headline they ran is "NOT GUILTY" but the subtitle pretty well shows that even they're playing it as a miscarriage of justice).
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: DestyNova on July 14, 2013, 05:52:49 PM
Getting gun back. (http://gma.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-gun-back-204024289--abc-news-topstories.html)

"All those hateful eyes! I had to put them out because I was afraid of my life! Look! I have them right here in my hands so you can look into them and see the hate!"
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Bal on July 14, 2013, 05:56:18 PM
Sometimes you wish it was the 60's so civil rights violation charges could be made federally.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on July 14, 2013, 05:59:03 PM
Quote
George Zimmerman will get his gun back now that he has been cleared of murder and his lawyer said today that Zimmerman needs the weapon "even more" than before.

No he doesn't, he needs to not fucking go around aggravating any more situa...

Quote
He indicated that Zimmerman may file suits against others, however.

"There are a number of events that happened during this case and the way certain people handled it that we may need to hold responsible. We'll see," O'Mara said.

Oookay or maybe he should just go ahead and write out what he wants on his headstone.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: R^2 on July 15, 2013, 02:14:15 AM
Wait wait wait. Zimmerman himself is worried about gun-toting vigilantes out for justice? Really?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on July 15, 2013, 03:13:05 AM
Well, yeah. Now that he's been proven how effective Stand Your Ground has been as a defense, some vengeance-seeker could unload a magnum into him and claim they were afraid he was going to attack them.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on July 15, 2013, 03:36:47 AM
If said vengeance-seeker is white, maybe.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on July 15, 2013, 04:20:38 AM
SYG is a red herring.  It never got used in this case.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on July 15, 2013, 04:38:43 AM
So, in fact, the way the law is written was already so heinously racist in its implementation that all the SYG laws might have done is skip the trial?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Ted Belmont on July 15, 2013, 04:41:28 AM
SYG is a red herring.  It never got used in this case.

Yes and no. It wasn't used by his defense to get the charges dismissed, but it was used in the instructions to the jury (http://www.scribd.com/doc/153354467/George-Zimmerman-Trial-Final-Jury-Instructions#):

Quote
If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.(emphasis mine)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on July 15, 2013, 05:59:26 AM
Which ought not be relevant, because George Zimmerman was both engaged in an unlawful activity and in a place where he had no right to be.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on July 15, 2013, 08:46:40 AM
Quote
if Martin was alive, I guarantee you Zimmerman goes to jail for something.

This is probably the truest statement on the subject I've heard all week.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on July 22, 2013, 11:14:45 PM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/22/gun-advocates-raising-money-to-buy-new-firearm-for-zimmerman/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/22/gun-advocates-raising-money-to-buy-new-firearm-for-zimmerman/)

:I
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Stush on July 23, 2013, 01:36:38 AM
Are we sure this isn't all just some kind of huge extended prank by the onion? It's pretty surreal.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: DestyNova on July 23, 2013, 02:23:49 AM
Life is coming up roses for  Zimmerman it seems. He got to rescue a family who had a car accident. No doubt he will soon join the police force so he can give back to the community.

Wait, I think that is already going to happen.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on August 23, 2013, 03:27:08 AM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/23/zimmerman-gun-shops-on-grip-and-grin-tour-of-tactical-weapons-factory/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/23/zimmerman-gun-shops-on-grip-and-grin-tour-of-tactical-weapons-factory/)

There's a very special hell awaiting this man.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on August 23, 2013, 04:14:39 AM
Are we sure this isn't all just some kind of huge extended prank by the onion? It's pretty surreal.

Funny Stush should have mentioned this, because The Onion ran a story a couple days ago that Zimmerman won the lottery and there were enough enraged responses that it made it onto literallyunbelieveable.com
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: McDohl on September 09, 2013, 08:17:51 AM
Just heard on the radio, so no source.

Zimmerman and his wife are going through a divorce, and things escalated.  Wife said he smashed her iPad and threatened her father with a gun.  The news bite played a portion of the 911 call.

Still having a mancrush on your boy, Hannity?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on September 09, 2013, 08:27:08 AM
The fact that there's a divorce has been popping up in the news, but I hadn't paid it any mind because at that point it was almost like Celebrity News.

The 911 call is new though.

It always comes out you know. Idiots can't hide that level of stupid forever.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mothra on October 01, 2013, 02:51:47 AM
Floridan black woman sentenced to 20 years after firing an intentional warning shot at abusive husband who strangled and threatened to kill her. (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/florida-stand-ground-sentencing/)  Stand Your Ground defense ignored completely.

Do we need to go fight another war over this shit?  It's getting laid pretty damned bare down there.

Briefly noticed there was a shitstorm wherein Shinra no-joke attempted to defend this verdict. Ye gods, Shinra.

The judge overturned the 20-year sentence, and will conviene a new jury to consider the case (http://gma.yahoo.com/court-overturns-20-sentence-woman-fired-warning-shots-221358241--abc-news-topstories.html). Thank christ.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Rico on October 01, 2013, 08:08:20 AM
Uh, from what the article looks like, the judge kind of agrees with Shinra (and me, for that matter). Jury may end up deciding differently next trial, but the judge specifically said "We reject her contention that the trial court erred in declining to grant her immunity from prosecution under Florida's Stand Your Ground law." Regular self-defense is, in general, even harder to get away with than stand-your ground laws. I wouldn't be surprised if the child endangerment part got reversed, but you can't leave the situation, arm yourself, come back, and then start shooting.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mothra on October 01, 2013, 10:32:12 AM
That quote was not particularly inspiring, no. Still, there's at least a chance we might get some shred of actual justice here.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on November 18, 2013, 07:44:29 AM
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/george-zimmerman-arrested-after-disturbance-call-at-florida-house-officials-1.1548591 (http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/george-zimmerman-arrested-after-disturbance-call-at-florida-house-officials-1.1548591)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Royal☭ on November 18, 2013, 10:36:08 AM
What amazes me is that he had a girlfriend. What about George Zimmerman at any point over the last two years would just seem attractive?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Smiler on November 18, 2013, 11:26:39 AM
Murder is sexy.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on November 18, 2013, 11:39:14 AM
I imagine that with very popular books spawning movie series and featuring abusive relationships as the acme of romantic love, it could make lots of people who aren't currently in an abusive relationship think that they're exciting? I dunno.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on November 18, 2013, 01:23:51 PM
What amazes me is that he had a girlfriend. What about George Zimmerman at any point over the last two years would just seem attractive?

Low standards.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mongrel on November 18, 2013, 01:54:27 PM
Fame.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Brentai on November 18, 2013, 06:19:49 PM
Did you guys sleep through the huge groundswell of support this man received, or are you of the impression that only one gender is capable of seeing violent hate as a virtue?
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Malikial on November 18, 2013, 11:19:25 PM
It's basically unheard of for a high profile criminal to NOT begin receiving fan mail and a good portion of it is from people of the opposite gender. MANY convicted murderers get married in prison.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on November 18, 2013, 11:48:06 PM
MANY convicted murderers get married in prison.

But Zimmerman was acquitted!  :hurr:
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mothra on November 19, 2013, 02:54:31 AM
Yeah but the sheer number of people that were supporting Zimmerman for murdering an unarmed teenager was overwhelmingly fucking depressing. He had a lot of support.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mothra on November 19, 2013, 02:59:03 AM
I mean, I like to believe most of it was knee-jerk reaction to the fact that Trayvon's murder brought the Stand Your Ground law into question.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on November 19, 2013, 03:47:34 AM
I mean, I like to believe most of it was knee-jerk reaction to the fact that Trayvon's murder brought the Stand Your Ground law into question.

Yeah, but lots of people believed that Trayvon was high/a criminal/did something to deserve getting murdered (e.g. wearing a hoodie, defending himself against an armed man, being black).
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Mothra on November 19, 2013, 03:56:33 AM
I want to believe that's just pro-SYG folk scrambling to think of some way in which this isn't the exact reason why Stand Your Ground doesn't work in the real fucking world. We don't live in the goddamn Wild West.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: on November 19, 2013, 06:10:07 AM
It's basically unheard of for a high profile criminal to NOT begin receiving fan male and a good portion of it is from people of the opposite gender. MANY convicted murderers get married in prison.

It was a fan female in this case.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Malikial on November 19, 2013, 08:09:53 AM
Hahah fuck you.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on November 19, 2013, 08:59:59 AM
I want to believe that's just pro-SYG folk scrambling to think of some way in which this isn't the exact reason why Stand Your Ground doesn't work in the real fucking world. We don't live in the goddamn Wild West.

I want to believe that too. But Stand Your Ground, like Stop-And-Frisk, is a way for those in authority to maintain the racial status quo.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Pacobird on November 19, 2013, 10:11:09 AM
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/george-zimmerman-arrested-after-disturbance-call-at-florida-house-officials-1.1548591 (http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/george-zimmerman-arrested-after-disturbance-call-at-florida-house-officials-1.1548591)

fuck yeah i won my office pool
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: McDohl on November 19, 2013, 12:11:25 PM
Zimmerman posted bail, trial is set for January.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/19/justice/florida-george-zimmerman-arrest/ (http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/19/justice/florida-george-zimmerman-arrest/)
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Royal☭ on December 16, 2013, 08:18:27 AM
Zimmerman selling original work on eBay (http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/12/16/zimmerman_artwork.html)

(http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/12/16/zimmerman_artwork/_jcr_content/contentpar/articleBody/image.img.jpg/1387227450574.jpg)

I don't have the energy today.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Classic on December 16, 2013, 08:54:01 AM
Because I have better things to do with my time, I hadn't noticed that the guy who killed Trayvon Martin had his domestic violence charges dropped because the complaining witness and victim is mysteriously not assisting the investigation anymore.
Title: Re: License to Go Plan Recreational Murders
Post by: Büge on December 16, 2013, 09:04:46 AM
Zimmerman selling original work on eBay (http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/12/16/zimmerman_artwork.html)

Think how much it'll be worth when the law of averages catches up with him.