Zimmerman is Hispanic...white people like to pretend that race vs race bias doesn't exist and only white folks need to stop giving other folks a hard time.Seriously, all I know about latin america is how to call people shit eaters and that it's got some seriously bonkers racial discrimination.
Ah, the good ol' "don't dress slutty unless you want to get raped" defense.
I can't remember where, or who, but someone was talking about people trying to make excuses for murder, and they said something to the effect of "this is only going to get worse". Sadly, they were right:
Geraldo Rivera Blames Trayvon Martin (Or His Parents) For Wearing Hoodie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTMyb15bfAE#ws)
Unless it's raining out, or you're at a track meet, leave the hoodie home.
Considering all the accounts of police pressing witnesses to change their testimony and the infamous 911 tapes where Zimmerman follows the kid despite police correcting him not to and then Trayvon begging for help/his life before a second shot is fired, it's really hard to look at this case objectively
I think Geraldo is suffering from the same problem his parents suffered from when his generation was running around with long hair and listening to the Beatles. He is too old and out of touch to understand youth culture and like most people he does not posess the necessary cynicism to believe that this could happen for no reason in America - so he blames what he does not understand, Hoodies, for the death of a child rather than a cold-blooded racist murderer who shot dead a child for committing the high crime of being black after dark.
(edit: I wonder how long it would take to find a pundit from the Lennon era attribute Lennon's death to having long hair?)
For the record: as someone who is vehemently against gun control, this case is everything that is wrong with stand your ground and then some. Someone gave a clearly unstable racist shitheel a gun and a neighborhood watch post. If we're not going to monitor who we are handing these fucking guns out to, we shouldn't have them at all.Quote from: DoomConsidering all the accounts of police pressing witnesses to change their testimony and the infamous 911 tapes where Zimmerman follows the kid despite police correcting him not to and then Trayvon begging for help/his life before a second shot is fired, it's really hard to look at this case objectively
Also, someone cleaned up the audio of the 911 tapes and zimmerman is heard saying 'fucking coons' under his breath. This is pretty much the most cut and dry hate crime in years and the fact that this guy isn't rotting in prison right now is a serious miscarriage of justice.
If I was George Zimmerman, I would be begging the police to let me stay in a cell. He's probably waking up every morning to slashed tires and busted windows. When Samuel L Jackson is referencing you by name in a PSA you've officially become overexposed.
The kid committed the crime of being too black near a hispanic dude with a gun.There's a lot of racial tension in Florida, and not everything is black and white. (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0324/Who-is-George-Zimmerman-and-why-did-he-shoot-Trayvon-Martin)
That PSA was posted to youtube in 2011, so I don't think it's referencing Zimmerman. It does sort of fit, though.
Here's a thing.It's funny because it ignores what the justice system assumes about people based on melanin.
Here's a thing.It's funny because it ignores what the justice system assumes about people based on melanin.
He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.
He was bigger, and looked a few years older than my cousin (probably late high school/early college).
Zimmerman chose to continue it, and by attempting to harass him for his behavior instead of letting the justice system (which itself needs a lot of work, but is better than vigilantism) handle it the people doing this are only better in that they don't have a loaded gun available.
You guys are putting a lot of people into the Internet Lynch Mob that don't belong there. How about you keep it at "the people brazen enough to post addresses and act on posted addresses?"
Thousands of people have re-tweeted the Spike Lee tweet.
QuoteThousands of people have re-tweeted the Spike Lee tweet.
So does "people brazen enough to post and act on the posting" not count because there's a lot of them?
And with any luck he will! Seems police report is coming out and there's even video of his initial arrest, where he is completely uninjured. To the point of not even having grass stains on the back of his shirt.
O'Mara said that Zimmerman had already used roughly $50,000 of the money "for living expenses -- rent or whatever"
Zimmerman collected over $200,000 in donations from racists. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-zimmerman-reveals-support-fund-2012-0427,0,1035645.story)QuoteO'Mara said that Zimmerman had already used roughly $50,000 of the money "for living expenses -- rent or whatever"
“I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book,” Zimmerman wrote. “Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!”
"Under the state's 10-20-life law, a conviction for aggravated assault where a firearm has been discharged carries a minimum and maximum sentence of 20 years without regarding to any extenuating or mitigating circumstances that may be present, such as those in this case," Daniel said.
To be fair, the primary difference here is that one has been to trial and the other hasn't.
Don't be shocked if Zimmerman spends 30 years in prison after 15 minutes of deliberation.
Then you might as well say that Agahnim is the top villain in Link to the Past.
If we were going to have a scholarly analysis of LttP, I think we're going to come to an agreement that Agahnim's a special boss, but he's definitely not top villain by any stretch.
You're assuming that minimum sentencing and stand your ground are not subcategories of racism.
If anything, minimum sentencing prevents judges from giving whites shorter sentences
and stand your ground is a misguided self-defense law, no racism is actually implied.
edit: before somebody takes my statement out of context, it is not racist to state that minorities commit more crimes because that's a proven fact.
Agahnim IS Ganon.I was pretty sure it was a plot point that Ganon was trapped in the dark world by the sages' seal. I'm also pretty sure Agahnim makes it out like he's part of some kind of Evil Trinity, or something. That he's an Evil Jesus. But I have VC, I have a SNES. I CAN DOUBLE CHECK THIS SHIT FOR MYSELF.
and stand your ground is a misguided self-defense law, no racism is actually implied.
Bullshit.
Stand Your Ground is inherently racist. "Feeling threatened" is thinly-veiled code for "SCARY BLACK MAN".
Saying "it's a proven fact" is not actually proof.
What's your source? What's your source's rubric?
It's certainly true that minorities are disproportionately CONVICTED of violent crimes.
Murder
Homicide victimization by race, 1976-2005. [1]
UCR, Murder Victims by Age, Sex, and Race, 2009: [4]
UCR, Murder Offenders by Age, Sex, and Race, 2009: [5]
UCR, Race and Sex of Victim by Race and Sex of Offender, Single victim/single offender, 2009: [6]
A United States Department of Justice report which surveyed homicide statistics between 1974 and 2004 stated that of the crimes surveyed, 52.2% of the offenders were Black, 45.8% were White, and 2% were Other Races. Of the victims in those same crimes, 50.9% were White, 46.9% were Black, and 2.1% were Other Races. The report further stated that "most murders are intraracial" with 86% of White murders committed by Whites, and 94% of Black murders committed by Blacks.[21] However, the document does not provide any details concerning what races or ethnicities are included in the designations "White", "Black", or "Other Races".
Race / Ethnicity Number Percentage of
U.S. population
Americans 308,745,538 100.0 %
White 223,553,265 72.4 %
Black or African American 38,929,319 12.6 %
American Indian or Alaska Native 2,932,248 0.9 %
Asian 14,674,252 4.8 %
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander 540,013 0.2 %
Some other race 19,107,368 6.2 %
Thanks Thad. I didn't have the heart to straight out tell Shinra he's been picking up racist talking points from someplace.Pointing out that numbers line up isn't racist, guys. I don't know what to say. I already went over the rationale of why this is the case, but I guess you can pretend I'm fucking posting from Stormfront or something?
Agahnim IS Ganon.I was pretty sure it was a plot point that Ganon was trapped in the dark world by the sages' seal. I'm also pretty sure Agahnim makes it out like he's part of some kind of Evil Trinity, or something. That he's an Evil Jesus. But I have VC, I have a SNES. I CAN DOUBLE CHECK THIS SHIT FOR MYSELF.
Bullshit.
Stand Your Ground is inherently racist. "Feeling threatened" is thinly-veiled code for "SCARY BLACK MAN".
The Zimmerman/Martin example is not an anomaly. It is the exact thing the law was written for. You see a Scary Black Man, you shoot him, the police let you go.
The issue is that you're assuming those numbers are comprehensive. "Minorities commit more crimes than whites" is the racist conclusion to be drawn from the data point of "Minorities are arrested, tried, and convicted at disproportionately high rates for their population count, as compared to whites".
You've talked in the past about having shoplifted perfume and stuff from grocery stores. Were you arrested, tried, and convicted every single time you did that? If not, do you think the times you weren't are included in any of those statistics? Do you understand the point being made here?
Ganon specifically refers to Agahnim as his "alter ego".Obviously, I now have to gather the full script for the SNES (Japanese???) version, so that we can argue what the real "Ganon" is here.
Can we agree that a greater amount of crime is committed by persons at, just above, and below the poverty line?I'm not sure we can even agree on this point. The further that you drift away from this presumably "high risk" level of wealth, the more resources you have to deflect conviction for a committed crime.
Except that's not for convictions, that's for the actual perpetrators of actual crimes. That includes plea bargains, no contest, etc. Please read the actual article instead of dismissing what I am saying outright.I don't actually see where in which article this is explained, but don't think I'm dismissing what you're saying outright. I'm trying to point out an important, if subtle, difference in the way lots of people like to characterize DoJ statistics.
SYG is not racist, it's classist.Classist, all too often, is code for, "It's not racist, because sometimes it disenfranchises white people too!"
I know it's a controversial point, but that doesn't make it a false one.
but in spite of this you're still trying to argue that it's situational rather than systemic. Basically, that even though they have poor living conditions, minorities are still more likely to be criminals. I dispute this claim, as the numbers I crunched don't add up.
She was in her residence for her possessions with the intent to peacefully leave and was threatened with death after being the victim of battery. She was going somewhere she had every right to go for purposes that can't be called into question because unlike Zimmerman, her firearm was successfully used to deter further violence instead of escalate it.
Also, you moron, there's no point in dwelling on her children unless you're talking about any child endangerment charges she's facing. Seriously, if you weren't you, I'd say you're making chauvinist assumptions about a woman's obligations and ability to control and wield force.
I'm rusty on the exact legality, but basically they have to establish how directly SYG applies. If they can just waive the entire case under a proper SYG defense(i.e. Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and Zim was in undeniable danger of his life), there may not even be a trial. It's something like "Prove the applicability of SYG" -> "The Trial if SYG is N." But again I'm not very familiar with how it works and all we have so far is a wide variety of laughably bad stories from everyone but Zimmerman himself. The formal version submitted to the court to determine legality should be interesting.
You don't carry a gun because if somebody is going to attack you, you can now shoot them for free.Unless you're white in a SYG state, apparently.</idiotic knee jerk retort>
Zimmerman pursued Trayvon armed with a weapon against police recommendations. Do you not get how this makes "stand your ground" of extremely questionable applicability?
She was in her residence for her possessions with the intent to peacefully leave and was threatened with death after being the victim of battery. She was going somewhere she had every right to go for purposes that can't be called into question because unlike Zimmerman, her firearm was successfully used to deter further violence instead of escalate it.
Also, you moron, there's no point in dwelling on her children unless you're talking about any child endangerment charges she's facing. Seriously, if you weren't you, I'd say you're making chauvinist assumptions about a woman's obligations and ability to control and wield force.
Where do you think bullets go when they miss their intended target? Do you think they disappear into the aether, never to be seen from again?Shinra, don't be retarded.
She had every opportunity to vacate the premises. She went to the garage,Shinra, don't be retarded.
Zimmerman has not been to trial yet, will go to trial soon, and is almost guaranteed to lose because of this. You are comparing something that hasn't happened yet...Shinra, for the love of God, don't be retarded.
now that facts have come outLet's not omit that those facts only "came out" thanks to a pretty scarily huge PR campaign. I mention this because...
public perception forever tainting Zimmerman's ability to receive anything approaching a fair trialThat sounds like a Catch-22 for getting justice done.
Shinra, don't be retarded.I can't find a source on what gun Marissa Alexander was using, but I'm guessing it was a 9mm loaded with hollowpoints, which is pretty standard for handgun carry. It's possible she was carrying a smaller gun, but since she was licensed for concealed carry and had firearms training, I doubt it. The FBI does ammunition tests in a variety of scenarios. Tests 4 and 5 are most relevant here: Shots from 10 feet into either two half-inch pieces of drywall or a three-quarter inch piece of plywood. 18 inches behind the obstacle is a block of ballistic gel. The measurement is bullet penetration into the gelatin.
She was in a house. Never mind that you're making assumptions about whether or not the projectile had a target. I think they disappear and are lodged in stucco, drywall and insulation.
The report I read said that the warning shot bullet hole was at the top of the kitchen wall, and didn't mention a second bullet hole entering the room where the children were.Yes, this is what actually happened. This does not change the fact that is a stupid fucking idea to intentionally fire a handgun into a wall regardless of the layout of your house or where you think your children may be in that house.
Still, no wounds. From a woman who had firearms training.
I feel like this discussion has pretty much run his course and all I can do is repeat the same things while you call me racistI have not once in this conversation called you racist. I've made a point of it, because I have to assume you're not a racist to remain even vaguely civil. So don't accuse me of something I haven't done.
We've already went over why she was convictedThere's not a "we" that includes you here, because the first of two things I'm trying to point out are that you seem to be inferring motive from facts irrelevant to that motive. I am not trying to convince you to do anything but look at the case more closely and not leap on a conclusion because you want or need SYG to be not inherently racist.
1. Oh, good, no wounds. So I guess we can all just walk around firing our guns at things and as long as we don't hit anybody, that's A-OKand this one
If somebody pulls a knife on me, and I run away, I don't get to run to the pawn shop, buy a firearm, come back and shoot them
(because according to her, she was trapped in her garage);
She fled into the garage to escape but was trapped behind a jammed door, she stated in court documentsDo you have any articles you want me to read about this case or Florida case law, while we're at it?
I don't think her ability to retreat through the garage is that important; she deliberately armed herself and immediately returned.I feel like I've made clear the source and the "iffiness" of her testimony. Though I haven't read how quickly she returned.
Classic, whatever points you're trying to make about the fairness or unfairness of Marissa's convictionIn spite of being really muddled, you picked up exactly what I thought was weird about her conviction. As in, why was establishing a different, equally severe crime, so important to establishing the invalidity of the SYG defense?
Alexander case or start another thread on it where you get off to a better startThe Marissa case was put here because it is most revealing as a comparison to the Zimmerman case. That Shinra and I have goaded each other into talking specifics isn't really what I had in mind. It seems like our major point of disagreement on the proceedings is that Shinra assumes the fairness and empathy of judge and jury across race and gender until shown otherwise. Where I consider, in light of evident institutionalized racism, not stopping to consider the what effects in terms of racial or gender bias are or might be is a tacit contribution to the problem, however small.
As in, why was establishing a different, equally severe crime, so important to establishing the invalidity of the SYG defense?Because to be justified in using deadly force "she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm". Someone with firearms training choosing to draw just doesn't fire a warning shot if they feel under IMMINENT threat of death or great bodily harm.
I don't disagree, but the fact remains that more minority offenders are arrested and convicted for violent crime.
QuoteA United States Department of Justice report which surveyed homicide statistics between 1974 and 2004 stated that of the crimes surveyed, 52.2% of the offenders were Black, 45.8% were White, and 2% were Other Races. Of the victims in those same crimes, 50.9% were White, 46.9% were Black, and 2.1% were Other Races. The report further stated that "most murders are intraracial" with 86% of White murders committed by Whites, and 94% of Black murders committed by Blacks.[21] However, the document does not provide any details concerning what races or ethnicities are included in the designations "White", "Black", or "Other Races".
I'm not saying the law does not set up situations like these, I am saying the law is not (as you are implying) inherently racist and is not directly furthering the pervasive racism in our society.
I will not deny that, as a symptom of other factors, it has managed to for lack of a better term, put a racial group in it's sights. Get rid of SYG because it let an idiot like George Zimmerman with extremely poor judgement murder a child, not because of some perception that it's making racism worse in this country.
I'm not assuming that they're comprehensive, but I'm also not buying the opposite assumption that Whites are committing enough crimes to equalize the table but they're just not being tried for any of them.
Can we agree that a greater amount of crime is committed by persons at, just above, and below the poverty line?
Can we agree that a greater percentage of persons at, above and below that line are minorities, mostly due to institutionalized racism as I've already discussed?
SYG is not racist, it's classist.
Someone with firearms training choosing to draw just doesn't fire a warning shot if they feel under IMMINENT threat of death or great bodily harm.But then you're saying she'd have a better claim to a SYG defense if she had shot him. Aren't you?
You shouldn't... even pull a gun if you're not intending to shoot to kill.
I think we're all in agreement that the woman needed to go to jail for SOMETHING.I'm not so sure we're all in agreement on jail, but she and her spouse have definitely done some illegal things as part of the lead-up to this decision.
Gray himself admitted in a deposition to abusing "all five of his babies' mamas except one," and to hitting Alexander.So yeah, it took a lot of effort to keep as "cool" as I was.
Yeah, the combination of that and the 10-20-life sentencing is pretty fucked.
I'm not so sure we're all in agreement on jail
She didn't fire into a room full of children, she fired while facing a wall shared with a room full of children. No, I don't believe it makes much difference to how much risk she exposed her children to.And we're done, ladies and gentlemen.
You shouldn't shoot or even pull a gun if you're not intending to shoot to kill.
I've never really understood the rationale behind this. I get that firearms are deadly by design and that it's generally more difficult to maim than to slay.
Is it a prisoner's dilemma type scenario where the game-theory strategy is to only draw with intent to kill?
Or is it that statistically speaking adding a weapon to the mix tends to escalate violence rather than calm it down?
Quote
Gray himself admitted in a deposition to abusing "all five of his babies' mamas except one," and to hitting Alexander.
So yeah, it took a lot of effort to keep as "cool" as I was.
And we're done, ladies and gentlemen.Christ Jesus, if I can't trust you to finish at least skimming a post of course there's no discussion!
Thanks also for making my comment into another strawman, balancing out what was otherwise an almost respectful post.Mostly though I've got a personal vendetta against habit wife-beaters, so I'm inclined to give the victims of domestic violence the benefit of the doubt. From the HuffPo article:QuoteGray himself admitted in a deposition to abusing "all five of his babies' mamas except one," and to hitting Alexander.
So yeah, it took a lot of effort to keep as "cool" as I was."But officer, he was a piece of shit" is not a valid defense in any court of law, as much as we'd like it to be.
"But officer, he was threatening
The whole shoot to wound thing is something no one suggested is actually done or is relevant to either of the SYG cases we're talking aboutJust wanted to make that clear.
the military DO shoot to miss: This is called suppression, and you can see how good that is at totally not killing people by looking at the civilian body counts in Iraq and Afghanistan
"But officer, he was a piece of shit" is not a valid defense in any court of law, as much as we'd like it to be.
Wait are they trying to play up that a recreational drug that pacifies a person made him violent?
No, no, see, that Treyvon used drugs means he wasn't a perfect angel stolen from this world by the monster that is racism given human form. In fact, quite the opposite, it means he was just another Scary Black Thug whom Zimmerman was entirely justified in following around and then being forced to shoot.
Because those are the only two extreme that are allowed to exist.
Again, fools parting with their money doesn't bother me a bit. I'd like to drag this thing out just so he can get more. It's not like the bundle of cash is going to do him any good when he inevitably does something stupid enough to land himself either in a prison cell or in a grave.
Darius Simmons was by all accounts a good kid. The fun loving 6th grader was simply moving a garbage can in front of his home when his neighbor, 75 year old John Henry Spooner confronted him with a [9mm hand gun]* and accused him of stealing from his home. Darius, who was in school the time of the robbery, denied being involved with the theft. John Henry Spooner then proceed to shoot Darius in his chest, while he had his hands raise showing Spooner he was unarmed. His mom, who was watching in horror, ran to Darius to see if she could find a pulse, she couldn’t. Darius, 13 years old and unarmed, was murdered in cold blood in front of his mother.
Simmons is one of 30 black people killed this year alone by people working in law enforcement or legitimate or illegitimate "security" work. 16 of these killings have happened since Trayvon Martin was killed by George Zimmerman.
...Spooner confronted him with a [9mm hand gun]* and accused him of stealing from his home. Darius, who was in school the time of the robbery, denied being involved with the theft.
We sure are just gunning down a lot of black people on the street.
Perjury is a pretty serious crime, isn't it?
Zimmerman states that killing Trayvon was part of "God's plan" (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/1034474/george_zimmerman_says_he_wouldn%27t_do_anything_differently%3A_%22it_was_god%27s_plan%22_for_me_to_kill_trayvon_martin/)
Awkward: Medal of Honor site now "partners" with gun manufacturers.
http://www.medalofhonor.com/partners (http://www.medalofhonor.com/partners)
So basically, weapon manufacturers feel it profitable to give money to a company that will show their products shooting people.
How exactly do I keep the "no, videogames don't cause gun violence" spiel with that on?
Jacksonville
I know. All I'm saying there is that the lawyers there have to make every attempt to give him that fair defense.
Zimmerman is America. He thought he was an action hero coming to save the day, but it turns out he was just an idiot with a gun, and he killed a kid and never denied it and he got away with it.
The greatest country on earth, right?
First: civil wrongful death suit.
[–]drhuntzzz 163 points 12 hours ago
Wrongful death suit coming up next...
permalinkparent
[–]Mr_Yeshuite 237 points 11 hours ago
i could be wrong, as i work in law in another state, but i believe that florida law protects you from a civil suit if you succeed with a self defense claim.
permalinkparent
[–]DeuxBoy 186 points 11 hours ago
You are correct. Zimmerman would most likely be granted immunity.
Quote from: McClainZimmerman is America. He thought he was an action hero coming to save the day, but it turns out he was just an idiot with a gun, and he killed a kid and never denied it and he got away with it.
The greatest country on earth, right?
First: civil wrongful death suit.
Reddit is terrible, but I just read this exchange and started wondering:Quote[–]drhuntzzz 163 points 12 hours ago
Wrongful death suit coming up next...
permalinkparent
[–]Mr_Yeshuite 237 points 11 hours ago
i could be wrong, as i work in law in another state, but i believe that florida law protects you from a civil suit if you succeed with a self defense claim.
permalinkparent
[–]DeuxBoy 186 points 11 hours ago
You are correct. Zimmerman would most likely be granted immunity.
George Zimmerman will get his gun back now that he has been cleared of murder and his lawyer said today that Zimmerman needs the weapon "even more" than before.
He indicated that Zimmerman may file suits against others, however.
"There are a number of events that happened during this case and the way certain people handled it that we may need to hold responsible. We'll see," O'Mara said.
SYG is a red herring. It never got used in this case.
If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.(emphasis mine)
if Martin was alive, I guarantee you Zimmerman goes to jail for something.
Are we sure this isn't all just some kind of huge extended prank by the onion? It's pretty surreal.
Floridan black woman sentenced to 20 years after firing an intentional warning shot at abusive husband who strangled and threatened to kill her. (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/florida-stand-ground-sentencing/) Stand Your Ground defense ignored completely.
Do we need to go fight another war over this shit? It's getting laid pretty damned bare down there.
What amazes me is that he had a girlfriend. What about George Zimmerman at any point over the last two years would just seem attractive?
MANY convicted murderers get married in prison.
I mean, I like to believe most of it was knee-jerk reaction to the fact that Trayvon's murder brought the Stand Your Ground law into question.
It's basically unheard of for a high profile criminal to NOT begin receiving fan male and a good portion of it is from people of the opposite gender. MANY convicted murderers get married in prison.
I want to believe that's just pro-SYG folk scrambling to think of some way in which this isn't the exact reason why Stand Your Ground doesn't work in the real fucking world. We don't live in the goddamn Wild West.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/george-zimmerman-arrested-after-disturbance-call-at-florida-house-officials-1.1548591 (http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/george-zimmerman-arrested-after-disturbance-call-at-florida-house-officials-1.1548591)
Zimmerman selling original work on eBay (http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/12/16/zimmerman_artwork.html)