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[Brentai]

I don't think that last part is as strong as an argument as you would like it to be.

[TA]

Let me rephrase, then.  Deserving of at least the consideration and respect with which those who keep proclaiming homosexuality to be a choice want their choice of religion to be treated.

[Kayin]

One funny thing I experienced. A few folks on a design forum were shooting the shit about this and we were talking about gay being a choice sometimes Now we were doing this not because of the issue (Like TA, we all basically agreed that it didn't matter for our own personal assessment and it definitely isn't a choice most of the time), but out of just interest in the realms of sexuality and what 'choice' even means. Some people freaked out as if we were attacking gay rights or something. I kinda hate how stuff like this is so politicized. Obviously those people meant the best, but it was really unfortunate, especially considering how clear it was that no one was against gay marriage. I also thought it was funny because the implication was almost as if they were inflicted by some incurable illness and no one would WANT to be gay.

Oh well, you can mean well and still be painfully ignorant.

[Catloaf]

The part that doesn't really make sense is when it is taken as a given, almost by both sides, that if homosexuality were a choice, this sort of discrimination would be okay.  Just because something is a completely voluntary choice does not mean that such a choice is not a fundamental aspect of your character and humanity and deserving of at least as much consideration and respect as, say, your choice of religion.

I file this phenomenon under "stupid fucking centrists."   I've seen people argue with a tone that did largely imply that if it were a choice then homosexuality would indeed be immoral.  But I've also seen people argue using virtually the exact same wording with a different tone that more felt like they had made the logical decision "This person hates gay people; I can't make him not be stupid; I'll attack the assertion that can be argued over logically rather than argue exactly why being gay is immoral at all because I'm sure his argument will boil down to 'because the bible said so.'"

There are people who look at is as if it's an issue semi-analogous to anti-discriminatory measures for the handicapped.  They're idiots who are afraid of butt sex with more than one penis in the room unless the penises belong the two consenting mental patients.  This is also the kind of person who never considers the fact that women can be legitimately gay and not just drunk attention-whores, or that the institution of marriage and the 'nuclear family' concept are just arbitrary societal constructs.

Then there are people who are conscious enough to realize that there's no valid moral argument against homosexuality but can't find the words powerful enough to convince a never-read-or-analyzed-but-often-invokes bible thumper.  Then there are the problems with arguing about it legalistically because similar fuckwads will insist that puritanism is a just and valid basis for law because of the puritanical history of this country.  So the conscious people put their efforts elsewhere leaving the implication of choice yielding immorality as a casualty.

[Mongrel]

Church group 'prays' outside home of gay couple, neighbours all come out to tell the church group to buzz off.

Well okay. I like my city a little better now.

[Brentai]

Weren't they just bothering the neighbors too?

[Büge]

Two positive pieces of news: New York passes LGBT-inclusive anti-bullying law and 'Don't ask, don't tell' ruled unconstitutional.

[Büge]

An anti-gay slur was IP-traced to the offices of a US Senator after Republicans filibuster the repeal of DADT.

[Thad]

Megachurch Pastor Comes Out of the Closet

The now-divorced couple kept their secret for 21 years, but earlier this year, Swilley said Debye told him it was time to stop living a lie.

She said he should practice what he preaches and follow the church’s motto, "Real people experiencing a real God in the real world."

So, Swilley came out to his kids and his congregation. He said he knew he might risk everything, but the recent rash of gay teen suicides pushed him over the edge.

I don't know anything else about the guy besides this.  I don't know his background, the particulars of his church, or his politics.  But based on this, he seems like a pretty good guy.

He's got a blog.  I stopped in and gave him some words of encouragement.

[Mongrel]

George Takei

George Takei Calls Out Anti-Gay Arkansas School Board Member

[Mongrel]

So the Senate just blocked the repeal of DADT. Vote was 57 for 40 against. It's probably going up on most major news sites as we speak.

EDIT: Maybe we'll get another George Takei video as a small consolation?

[TA]

And here is where the most fundamental difference between the Democrats and the Republicans might come into play.  Ideology is ideology, but this is attached to the defense spending authorization thinger.  If this doesn't get passed, then my understanding is that the military is completely unfunded and risks shutting down.  So we have the Republicans refusing to pay for the military at all if the repeal's in there, and the Democrats facing the choice of either pulling DADT from the bill, or letting a major and essential part of the government grind to a halt.

And ultimately, I don't think the Democrats are willing to shut down the government to bully people into capitulating, because that has massive negative consequences for everybody.  And it doesn't work in the other direction, because Republicans are psychotic enough to see government shutdown as a bonus.  This is why the Democrats work with Republican majorities to try to make the best of a bad situation, while Republicans filibuster everything that risks coming in front of a Democratic majority.  This is why the Democrats are seen as weak.  Because as a group, they don't want to let millions of other people suffer so they can make ideological points for the cameras, and the Republicans are not only willing, but eager to do so.

It'd be nice to see the Democrats take that angle in the media.  The Republican party is so afraid of the gays that already serve doing so openly, that they'd rather not have a military than have one with open gays in it.  But then, while I'm not one of the people who'd be directly hurt by the delay, I am aware they exist and am not a sociopath, so it's hard to support the hard line.

[Detonator]

This is why the Democrats are seen as weak.  Because as a group, they don't want to let millions of other people suffer so they can make ideological points for the cameras, and the Republicans are not only willing, but eager to do so.

Or maybe the Republicans know the Dems will cave every time and therefore see no risk in doing so.  Seems smart to me.  Maybe if the Dems stood their ground once in awhile the Republicans would be less eager to shut down the government over stupid shit.

Though I honestly don't see the point here.  Over half of conservatives polled support the repeal of DADT, but I would assume they are not passionate about it.  Maybe Republicans figure that if they can block a piece of legislation that SHOULD pass easily, and that a lot of the Democratic base is passionate about, it would make Obama and the Democrats look even more impotent and useless, especially to their base.

Maybe I DO see the point.

[TA]

DADT repeal passes cloture, 63-33.

Final vote scheduled for 3pm today.

edit: and passed, 65-31.  I wonder who the two senators were that voted against cloture, but for the repeal?

[Royal☭]

Obama manages to keep one of his big campaign promises almost against his will!
Now gays are allowed to openly serve in the most corrupt, violent and wasteful arm of the government, spreading murder and imperialism at their will!

[A²]

....please tell me you're doing some kind of...highbrow joke I'm not getting. Or mocking other people. Please tell me that you're not actually...

[Detonator]

you don't read many of Constantine's posts on this board, do you?

[A²]

I keep hoping it's some kind of performance art.

I already had to spend today dealing with someone who admitted after years of being friends with a few people that he more or less agrees with the position of Clint McCance.

[JDigital]

Now gays are allowed to openly serve in the most corrupt, violent and wasteful arm of the government, spreading murder and imperialism at their will!

There weren't already gays in the Republican party?

[Detonator]

Now gays are allowed to openly serve in the most corrupt, violent and wasteful arm of the government, spreading murder and imperialism at their will!

There weren't already gays in the Republican party?

OPENLY is the key word