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Author Topic: What the fuck?  (Read 299789 times)

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Mongrel

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2580 on: March 10, 2011, 07:38:26 AM »

Well, in fairness, most of non-rural Michigan is a vast rusting wasteland that could double as a Fallout set already.
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Thad

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2581 on: March 10, 2011, 09:16:23 AM »

To be fair, the american people don't seem to realize that unions are on their side

Have you SEEN the polls?  Gutting collective bargaining is about as popular as Bush was at the end of his second term.

I think any reasonable person can acknowledge that unions have their flaws, but when it comes down to actually saying they shouldn't exist at all, well, that's a fringe viewpoint.

Again, if Walker had had the sense to stop after getting the unions to agree to all the cuts he'd asked for, it would be turning out much better for him than it's going to.
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patito

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2582 on: March 10, 2011, 10:24:27 AM »

No, I hadn't seen the polls at all, but hey, that's actually really good news.
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Bal

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2583 on: March 10, 2011, 10:50:54 AM »

RE: Michigan. Holy shit. The entire paternal side of my family is from Detroit. My grandfather used to fight (with a bat) strike breakers and scabs, and belonged to the steel workers union from the time he returned from the Pacific until he retired, with benefits that allowed a man who worked his whole life in a steal mill to get the kind of medical treatment he needed. My grandmother at various times belonged to the teamsters union, the police union, and several others. My uncle has belonged to the auto workers union for his entire career, and when a boiler explosion almost killed him it was his union that got him the medical care he needed, the paid time off during rehab, and his job back when he was ready to return.

This is a very common Detroit, and Michigan in general, kind of story. What kind of political retard do you have to be to fight the unions in Michigan of all places? You can't work at a supermarket in Michigan without being in a union. It's just fucking nuts. The only body of workers in Michigan that aren't unionized are small parts of the government.
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Shinra

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2584 on: March 10, 2011, 11:40:37 AM »

the democrats could turn this around by attacking the republicans where it hurts - the 45 and up voting blocks, (does anyone have a grandparent who WASN'T a union worker?) by pointing out that these bills are directly attacking their retirement plans. Of course, the democrats won't do this, they'll squander all of their opportunities, and we'll end 2012 with Obama winning in a slim majority (that the republicans will contest) and a new republican majority in the senate. Mark my fucking words.
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Norondor

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2585 on: March 10, 2011, 12:46:58 PM »

the democrats could turn this around

uhhhh, no they could not.
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Brentai

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2586 on: March 10, 2011, 01:06:28 PM »

I had a horrible thought this morning.

What if I was a governor intent on demolishing every institution that protects the people from myself and my bourgeoisie cronies, who has been made very well aware that he has absolutely no chance of a re-election, but who does have basically uncontested political power until the next election cycle?

I thought, well, I'd spend the next couple years abusing that power to do as much damage as possible, of course.

Michigan passes law giving governor power to break up towns, void union contacts and sell off public assets to private buyers with no oversight

Apparently I'm not the only person who thought that.
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MarsDragon

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2587 on: March 10, 2011, 01:07:46 PM »

Yeah, for all everyone's mad now by the time election season comes round again all of this will be forgotten and the GOP will cruise to victory on GET RID OF THOSE gay people/Mexicans/Muslims/Socialists/black people and everything will continue on the road to hell.

We're fucked with no way out but death.
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Norondor

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2588 on: March 10, 2011, 01:10:15 PM »

doesn't have to be our deaths.
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Brentai

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2589 on: March 10, 2011, 01:32:31 PM »

:disappoint:
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Mongrel

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2590 on: March 10, 2011, 01:38:49 PM »

Norondor must be another reader of Gary Brecher.

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Büge

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Shinra

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2592 on: March 11, 2011, 07:54:20 AM »

I don't want to sound like a tremendous asshole, but I have always found it incredibly troubling that these news stories tend to make the idea of the girl consenting to what occured the most outrageous concept in the world. This occured months ago and wasn't reported by the victim. I understand that rape is a seriously horrible thing but there's legitimate questions to be asked here, and while I understand that anyone involved is still guilty of statutory regardless, the long-term damage to a person's life is a lot less severe in one case than another. The media has done a fantastic job of making the viewing public view these men as guilty before they've gone to trial, and the end result is that short of stacking the jury with sympathetic blacks, a lot of men could have a lot of doors closed for them later in life - provided they ever get out of jail - because they made a (albeit, incredibly stupid) mistake. We're not seeing a lot of facts in this trial, and the only people who will are going to be the police and the jury.

Something horrible happened to that girl, I have no doubt, but whether she was forced to do what she was doing, or she chose to do what she was doing - because of lack of judgement, the part of society she came from and her upbringing (or lack thereof) - remains to be seen.
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Joxam

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2593 on: March 11, 2011, 08:09:27 AM »

I can't... I mean, I don't know how to say what I want to say.... I guess all I CAN say is this.

No. Shut the fuck up. She was 11. Some of the men accused of fucking her, with her 'consent' or not, were over twice her age. I understand that someone underage can consent to sex but not a fucking 11 year old. I actually think our current teen sex laws are absurd, mostly, but this is EXACTLY the kind of case they were made for. I cannot agree with you at all about this. She was 11, she cannot consent to sex and she was taken advantage of terribly by 18 young men. Saying that she chose to do it, no matter what the circumstance is fucking outrageous.
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TA

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2594 on: March 11, 2011, 08:13:45 AM »

Shinra, I think I vaguely understand the point you were trying to make, but ... Jesus babyfucking Christ, this is the worst possible case to use to make it.
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Shinra

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2595 on: March 11, 2011, 09:03:26 AM »

I can't... I mean, I don't know how to say what I want to say.... I guess all I CAN say is this.

No. Shut the fuck up. She was 11. Some of the men accused of fucking her, with her 'consent' or not, were over twice her age. I understand that someone underage can consent to sex but not a fucking 11 year old. I actually think our current teen sex laws are absurd, mostly, but this is EXACTLY the kind of case they were made for. I cannot agree with you at all about this. She was 11, she cannot consent to sex and she was taken advantage of terribly by 18 young men. Saying that she chose to do it, no matter what the circumstance is fucking outrageous.


Choice is the difference between statutory rape / sex with a minor and "actual" rape. Considering these are black men and are statistically more likely to be convicted and convicted for longer sentences, it's the difference between 5-10 years and jail and the rest of their lives. Nobody deserves to spend the rest of their life in jail because they were involved in something outrageously stupid. The difference between statutory and rape is the difference between having poor judgement and ethics and being a violent criminal. If you don't understand why this is a distinction that needs to be made, I don't know what else to say, other than, 'Boy I hope you don't end up on any federal juries'.

The people in their community are right to be asking these questions. We don't know enough of the facts in this case to presume judgement, we don't know what kind of person this girl was or what kind of background she came from. What we do know is that these events occured multiple times (possibly over multiple dates, that bit seems to be hazy) and that the incident didn't get reported until a friend of the victim reported the crime - months after the incident occured, with no suspicion that any rape had taken place during the interim months. The entire case is balanced on the weight of a cell phone video that none of us will ever (or admittedly, should ever) see, and the characters of the accused and the accuser.

I am NOT defending the act of having sex with an 11 year old girl. I am not even defending the men in question. What I *am* doing is condemning the media for sensationalizing the story and painting the men as guilty and the girl as sympathetic for the sake of selling papers and getting page hits. Men, especially black men, are constantly accused and convicted of crimes they either didn't commit, or committed to a diminished degree. We shouldn't talk so lightly about throwing 18 men in jail for the next 20-40+ years of their lives, or act outraged when the community around them comes to their defense.
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patito

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2596 on: March 11, 2011, 09:10:05 AM »

I think you're making the assumption that just because she didn't report it she was obviously in on it. When priests abused children they didn't report it either, that's because they saw priests as figures of authority and were intimidated by this. When you have like 20 other guys ganging up on you, I think it's safe to say you're gonna be a little intimidated too.

In any case, what I'm trying to say is, 11 year olds dude
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Royal☭

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2597 on: March 11, 2011, 09:21:29 AM »

Something horrible happened to that girl, I have no doubt, but whether she was forced to do what she was doing, or she chose to do what she was doing - because of lack of judgement, the part of society she came from and her upbringing (or lack thereof) - remains to be seen.

Everyone take a second to marvel at Shinra managing to sound both misogynistic AND racist in only a few words.

Joxam

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2598 on: March 11, 2011, 09:22:32 AM »

Actually I do think shinra has what I said right, because I DO think is impossible for an 11 year old to consent to sex. NO matter what the circumstance or their actions. Yes, I do think that. I also think its fucking outrageous for anyone to think differently. There is no 'choice'. She is 11 years old.
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Shinra

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Re: What the fuck?
« Reply #2599 on: March 11, 2011, 09:23:23 AM »

I'm not making any assumption; I'm not taking a side in this, hell, if anything I'm more on her side - every one of these men deserves jail time and she probably didn't consent. My issue is with the presumed guilt right out of the gate, the one-sided reporting, and the outrage that the community around these men are asking questions they have every right to ask. Some of the things they're saying are horrifyingly stupid and wrong - nobody asks to be raped, nobody deserves to be raped. But some of the questions they're asking are the same questions that are going to come up in the trial, and these people don't deserve to be made a spectacle for asking them, esp. when the lives of their sons, brothers, cousins, friends and neighbors are on the line.
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