Brontoforumus Archive
Discussion Boards => Real Life => Topic started by: Friday on May 22, 2009, 02:51:38 PM
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WARNING: PERSONAL DETAILS ABOUT MY LIFE FOLLOW, THERE WILL BE NO LULZ TO BE HAD, IF YOU ARE THE TYPE OF PERSON WHO DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT BLOG-STYLE LIFE UPDATE POSTS, YOU MAY WANT TO STOP READING NOW
So today one of my best friends calls me up, a married guy whom I've known for most of my life.
He tells me he's moving to Washington State.
I am surprised, this is coming completely out of left field.
I ask him why.
He says, more or less, because God told him/is telling him to.
I go "..."
He goes "I'm sorry but I can't ignore the signs."
Now, before you all jump on me for having a best friend who is a religious nut, allow me to give you this guy's background:
He's never done anything like this before. He never talked about his religion except in very casual passing. He goes to church, that's it. He's been a player in my campaign(s) for over 8 years, besides playing a Paladin, he's not phased by my pantheons or demonic enemies or any of the normal shit about Dungeons and Dragons that usually sets off the nuts. He doesn't insist his Paladin follows the "one true god", he accepts that he's a follower of just one Good aligned god of a pantheon.
This completely took me by surprise. I feel like something is being stolen from me. His wife is a little more religious than he is, she may have something to do with it. For those keeping track, this is the same girl I was talking about with Norondor. She's a homophobe and a creationist, her husband is neither.
But the thing is he really sounds like he believes it, he sounds like he really thinks he has to go and live in Washington because there's some task for him to do there.
Fuck, I don't know, maybe there is. But I still feel like I don't even know the guy anymore. And I'm losing a good friend for incredibly stupid reasons.
I don't know why I'm posting this here, really, other than the fact that if I don't get some kind of feedback my head may explode from the sheer amount of WTF.
So I'm not crazy, right? He and his wife are losing their minds and making a mistake, right? I mean it's their lives and if they want to move to Washington, OK, but they're in debt right now and all their friends and family are here. This is not the time or reason for them to move.
Fuck. I was even able to convince my Mormon friend to not go on his mission. (Two years in Australia) He got away from that cult shit, though they still find him once in a while and ask him why he's not going to church.
You know, I was always sort of neutral toward religion, but now it's actively reducing the quality of my life. Fuck this crazy bullshit. I even believe in God on my own terms, but I don't let that prevent me from making logical choices. (My vagina does that, lol.)
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He says, more or less, because God told him/is telling him to.
I go "..."
This, I think, is a proper and sane response.
I have a few friends who buy into religion in ways I could never posisbly fathom; and yeah, having a spouse who drinks the Kool Aid a bit more than you can certainly cloud your own judgment.
Did he go crazy? Maybe. Is it just peer pressure from his wife? Maybe maybe. The only thing I know for sure is that when trying to convince someone NOT to do something from religious impetus, winning the argument is unlikely, because all you've got on your side are bothersome facts and reason.
In any event, that sucks. Sorry to hear it.
I don't let that prevent me from making logical choices. (My vagina does that, lol.)
...and you said there wouldn't be lulz
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I've lost a lot of friends to Washington State. I suppose it's only a matter of time before I wind up there, myself--but it will probably be too late.
There's not a lot you can do.
A friend of mine, 'Mike', told me about a guy he used to know. Mike and this guy had been friends for a while, but the guy must have been going through a strange place in his life, 'cause he kinda dropped off the radar. Then one day Mike got a knock on his door, and it was this guy, saying that they'd had some good times, and what was about to happen was in no way Mike's fault, but he didn't want to be friends anymore.
This seems really similar. Framing the issue in the "command from God" light kind of preempts any sort of debate. About the only thing you can do is express your disapproval and your hope that this doesn't turn out to be a mistake he regrets too greatly, and try to keep in touch.
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I'm in WA. Tell him to hit me up so I have someone to play nerdy games with. I'm very low on friends, and most of them are always busy (read: all 3, not joking).
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LOL VAGINA.
Friday,
kudos on the DnD:SoM member title by the way.
but Friday,
We live on a spinning piece of rock that holds water and us to it via its gravity and is being flung around one of billions of stars out there by its gravity. We used to run around and hunt other animals, but now we trade consumer goods and make houses for eachother and all other manners of crazy complex things. Our ability to understand any of all this stuff going on around us or before us or whatever, is comendable sometimes but for the most part, very limited. So, I believe, that the only logical way to live one's life is to admit I am lost on a spinning ball in a cosmos that I don't have all the answers to and to never claim I have an answer until I am absolutely sure due to undeniable proof. This sort of proof very rarely comes up, so I live my life with a what I believe is a very healthy level of skepticism of pretty much everything. But I digress.
Not everyone follows this belief system that I have. Humans have a tendancy to want to believe that they can make sense of things around them intuitively, that their classically human capability to recognize patterns around them is all they need to make sense of the world and it should be used to figure out how things really work in the world around them and that they should trust it. This often leads people to believe that signs are telling them to move to Washington, say.
As one bipedal ape to an other, I'm sorry that your friend is moving away. Many of my close friends have moved away recently too. My only advice to you is the same I'm giving to myself right now and that is to try and make time to make new friends. There's a lot of good people out there.
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God knows what the guy's deal actually is. He hasn't actually told you, and you're probably pretty close to him, so it's clearly complicated.
It may be a huge, horrible, tragic thing. And then again, it may not be.
If you care, do as much as you can not to fall out of touch with him. Don't push him toward anything, because that'll break the connection, but make sure he knows you're still a part of his life. If he's really losing himself out there then that last link to the "real" world may still be enough to save him sometime down the road. If he's really really in trouble, then you'll know as soon as they start moving in to sever the bond between him and everybody who isn't "them". If it's really nothing that big, you'll maintain your friendship, and in time he'll probably give you a less goofy answer than "God was calling me."
The Power of Friendship is a corny deal but it really does defeat a lot of monsters, real or imagined.
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It's odd as I find myself hitting Central Canada to receive one last mission "for all my sins".
Well, nah it's more to get on a different track of life.
There is a lot of seasonal work in Wa and BC, especially as you approach the sailish sea. It is a much less worse state than California, for all I hear.
Having a lack of family is disconcerting, however.. (http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/Bon_Bon_2009/scruffy-1.jpg) Not an ideal risk
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The Power of Friendship is a corny deal but it really does defeat a lot of monsters, real or imagined.
/Tea
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Yeah I almost posted a picture of her but I'm still dragging my feet on hosting.
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Yeah I almost posted a picture of her but I'm still dragging my feet on hosting.
Photobucket?
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Yeah I almost posted a picture of her but I'm still dragging my feet on hosting.
imgur.com
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For all the smug superiority oure atheism affords, sometimes people just want the comfort of belief.
I find it hard to blame them.
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For all the smug superiority oure atheism affords, sometimes people just want the comfort of belief.
I find it hard to blame them.
Sure, but when did Washington become the holy land?
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I'm sorry for your loss.
If they're really on hard times, he's probably stressed out and searching for meaning. I mean, I've had friends do dumb things for even dumber reasons (that I won't get into), but things turn out okay. If I were you, I'd just wish him the best and keep in touch.
(But, what sort of creationist homophobe marries someone who isn't one?)
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I just -left- Washington.
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And thus it became the Holy Land again.
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:sadpanda:
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(But, what sort of creationist homophobe marries someone who isn't one?)
(My vagina does that, lol.)
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Sometimes a guy just knows he has to do a thing.
Admittedly, that usually applies to buying a videogame.
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Now, before you all jump on me for having a best friend who is a religious nut,...
Can we all jump on you for other reasons? :suave:
And yes, you can be player one.
But seriously, I can completely understand not knowing that someone is a closet religious nut. Years ago, a friend came up to me upon me producing a sandwich containing at least 1/2 a pound of pastrami and corned beef, exclaiming "Damn that's a huge sandwich, I mean, I can't even eat meat today, are you trying to taunt me or something?"
"You're selectively vegetarian based on the day of the week?!" I cluelessly responded.
"No, dude, I'm Roman Catholic. We can't eat meat on Fridays."
:OoO:
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A lot of Catholics follow that rule who aren't necessarily insane. If it's family tradition...
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The really fucking annoying thing is he just decided this last weekend.
Like, OK. If he had been getting messages and signs from god for months, or even weeks, that's one thing, maybe. This guy is moving to Washington because of "signs" that have been going on for less than four days.
Apparently, when he talked to his mom and dad about it, right after he said he had a major announcement but before he actually said anything, his mom said "You're moving to Washington, aren't you?"
He and his wife took this as a major confirmation that god was indeed telling them to move.
OK, a little spooky to guess that out of the blue, I'll grant...
except guess where he and his wife were last weekend
yes that's right they were on a trip to Seattle
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except guess where he and his wife were last weekend
yes that's right they were on a trip to Seattle
OH MY PORK!
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But seriously, I can completely understand not knowing that someone is a closet religious nut. Years ago, a friend came up to me upon me producing a sandwich containing at least 1/2 a pound of pastrami and corned beef, exclaiming "Damn that's a huge sandwich, I mean, I can't even eat meat today, are you trying to taunt me or something?"
"You're selectively vegetarian based on the day of the week?!" I cluelessly responded.
"No, dude, I'm Roman Catholic. We can't eat meat on Fridays."
:disapprove:
A lot of Catholics follow that rule who aren't necessarily insane. If it's family tradition...
Erm. Yeah. Can we save the term "religious nut" for people who, oh, bomb abortion clinics? Please? So the term doesn't lose all value for people present who are religious?
I'm sorry to read that bit of news, Friday. I wanted to offer some advice, but I didn't want to just assume your friend is a Christian; though a "homophobic creationist" wife makes that probable.
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Agreeing with Cannon here. Take a picture, it's a historic moment.
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Because of the current latest posts, I read this thread as "Bionic Commando took my friend away"
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Bionic Commando stole my bike
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I didn't mean to say that the no meat on Friday thing* made him crazy. But it was the first thing I noticed about him being religious, and it turns out he was pretty damn religious. Just not in public.
*Not eating meat on the 6th day of the week, as opposed to a hypothetical "Why is Friday suddenly a skeleton!?" situation.
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Two pages and no one noticed yet?
He obviously just misheard, he's supposed to go on the Oregon Trail!
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There's a scene in Night Watch* where a kid, suddenly devoid of his sense of direction or purpose, starts following any sort of sign: road signs, billboards, anything.
* this film opens with an awesome gory mediaeval battle and goes downhill from there
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I have a friend who wouldn't eat meat on Fridays all through high school. He wasn't particularly religious, but he knew he wouldn't be able to face his folks if he did.
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I use it as an excuse to get my mum to make me fish and chips every week.
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That's a good point. Say what you will about the Catholic church, they're responsible for the availability of a decent fish sandwich for a few weeks out of the year. I respect that.
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My friend Rick used to be the biggest logic nerd and anti-religion guy and now he goes to church every week ever since he married his wife. The first thing that went away was D&D with Rick...
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I'm always amazed to hear how (relatively) extreme Catholics are in the States. In Québec, it's only been about 40-50 years since we put an end to the Catholic Church's control over, well, pretty much everything, but things still seem mellower here somehow. Giving up meat on fridays is almost unheard of, except for some of the more elderly folk. I've been raised Catholic myself*, I've been around some pretty devout people, I was good friends with the son of a deacon, and the most extreme practice I've ever personally witnessed was saying a prayer of thanks before meals. We have our share of fringe lunatics but by and large it's very rarely any kind of deal at all.
As for your friend, Friday... His decision may be sudden and appear hasty to everyone, possibly even to himself, but I have the impression that, well, he's afraid he might regret it if he doesn't go. I mean, if I had a profound gut feeling that I had to do something specific and radical, to make a big change in my life, and didn't act on it, it'd feel terrible. Every time something bad happened to me I'd think about how things might have been different, you know? If he leaves and things don't work out, he can always return to his family and friends with the knowledge that he gave it a shot. If he doesn't go at all then he'll have "what might have been" haunting him for the rest of his days.
Of course, his motivations may be a cause of worry for you, but I wouldn't think too hard about it. It's probably just intuition or whatever, and he calls it God because it fits his circumstances and his worldview.
Or maybe it really is God, in which case you probably don't have much to worry about. ::D:
*: I'm just Christian now though. Denominations are for chumps the tragically misled. (Cue one of you smartasses saying "I'm just atheist now. Religions are for chumps." We're all chumps to somebody. But as long as we think for ourselves and take responsibility for our actions, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else says.)
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aw, don't feel bad. i hate everybody who tells anybody anything.
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It's probably just intuition or whatever, and he calls it God because it fits his circumstances and his worldview.
The problem with that is that calling it God gives power to those who want to control people like say outlawing gay marrage. He should be more careful what he calls the voices in his head.
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God tells me to burn things.
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Are you sure that it's not a leprechaun?
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Sorry to hear that Friday. Religious stuff is totally no fun at all for non-religious people. I have a protestant friend who drives me nuts with her crazy religious logic about what things are okay and not okay, and then I have a not-mormon-anymore friend who actively hates the Mormon faith now.
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Religious stuff is totally no fun at all for non-religious people.
Is it some kind of party for people who are into it?
Do, like, religious guys get together on Sundays and start a betting pool on who's going to be picked for Archdiose in the first round of the draft?
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Back in Montreal, my very Jewish friend goes to synagogue every Friday night and afterwards gets drunk with the rabbis.
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Wait a minute! There's things here! There's rocks, there's trees, there's birds, there's squirrels. Come on, we'll bless them all until we get vashnigyered
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Sorry to hear about your friend.
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Religious stuff is totally no fun at all for non-religious people.
Is it some kind of party for people who are into it?
Do, like, religious guys get together on Sundays and start a betting pool on who's going to be picked for Archdiose in the first round of the draft?
It prolly makes plenty of them feel good about themselves. Pretty sure.
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Depends. The Baptism style of Christianity that runs most of this country is infamous for the oppressive air of guilt it likes to lay onto its practitioners. Most of the guys who run around acting smug and morally superior to most other people are probably doing it because they've actually been taught that they're at the bottom of the moral food chain, and for a human being to be psychologically stable he or she has to have some feeling of dominance over something.
Catholicism is only slightly better in that it at least offers a possible way out of guilt, but only if you drink enough of the Kool-Aid (or in the more literal sense, if you drink enough of the box wine).
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Watered down box wine and wafers.
Can't forget the wafers.
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I wish I could.
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I hate that the communion ceremony is separated from an actual meal. It's entirely contrary to the verses in the bible that are read right before the communion ceremony. :facepalm:
Brentai, my experience with Baptists is that the whole smugness thing is because they're not going to hell like the rest of us, and they're the only ones who can save our souls. I mean it is a fucked up culture that uses shame as a teaching tool a lot, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a hardcore Baptist express feelings of guilt.
p.s. Episcopal wine is actually fortified rather than watered down. :perfect:
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Sorry to hear that Friday. Religious stuff is totally no fun at all for non-religious people. I have a protestant friend who drives me nuts with her crazy religious logic about what things are okay and not okay, and then I have a not-mormon-anymore friend who actively hates the Mormon faith now.
I think most Ex-Mormons hate the faith with an absolute passion. Is this not common with other faiths? I thought it was one of those 'no faith like a convert' things in reverse.
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I dunno, but I don't know any ex-Mormons that have any remotely positive feelings about the faith at all. I think my friend is also angry because her mom is such a crazy Mormon and maybe she wouldn't have been so crazy if she wasn't so passionate about her faith.
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Back in Montreal, my very Jewish friend goes to synagogue every Friday night and afterwards gets drunk with the rabbis.
Are you implying some sort of contradiction?
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I think the amount that somebody who has left a religion hates it is directly inversely proportional to the cultishness of the religion, and the difficulty they had leaving it.
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That post makes me want to dig out Breaking the Spell, as part of it talks about the relationship between the demands of a religion and the conviction of its followers.
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hahaha UPDATE
my friend has lost his fucking mind and just called to inform me that we are no longer friends because I don't believe in (his) god and it always bothered him that I never went to church (even though I did for the first 12 years of my life because my parents made me) and also because I don't have a strong work ethic and also because gays are a sin and I am a gay.
I blame everything on his wife, there is no way that he was this crazy for the 15 years I knew him.
he ended the phone call with "I will pray for your soul"
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to be clear about the gay bit (just because it makes it even more insane) what he's referring to is the fact that I've talked openly about having an attraction to my same gender with my friends before when the subject came up.
he doesn't know I fairly recently decided I was a filthyBISEXUAL and all that. he is just saying I am a sinner because I had those thoughts.
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I think you've mentioned that before. Also, it sucks when friends go crazy religious
Also your avatar makes me feel weird. PEACE.
:done:
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oh, way ahead of you on the getting drunk part.
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It sucks that he has apparently been so thoroughly brainwashed. Maybe he'll grow out of it...?
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oh, way ahead of you on the getting drunk part.
But I still have this half bottle of rum here untouched. Guess I'll just have to hunker down and do the work myself.
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I should probably drink the rest of the Christmas vodka. It's medicinal, right?
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:wat: You got vodka for Christmas? All I got were socks and gift certificates!
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It's medicinal, right?
Medicinal just means it's three times as strong.
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what sort of entirely shitty person calls a friend to tell them "hey, just fyi, i hate you now. and i always will til you change as suits my beliefs. chew on that."
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You kidding? There are worldwide organizations dedicated to it.
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There is nothing in the bible about hating gays or telling friends you hate them for any reason.
This guy must be some other crazy religion I've never heard of.
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oh, way ahead of you on the getting drunk part.
I thought you didn't drink? Things really must be bad. :sadpanda:
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There is nothing in the bible about hating gays or telling friends you hate them for any reason.
This guy must be some other crazy religion I've never heard of.
Stolen straight from yahoo answers
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090927132624AApHztN (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090927132624AApHztN)
Leviticus 18:22 (KJV)
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
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This comes literally one line after the bit about how it's wrong to sacrifice your children to Moloch.
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There is nothing in the bible about hating gays or telling friends you hate them for any reason.
This guy must be some other crazy religion I've never heard of.
Stolen straight from yahoo answers
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090927132624AApHztN (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090927132624AApHztN)
Leviticus 18:22 (KJV)
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
When Jesus came to earth he looked at the Hebrews and told them that what they had been following was no longer useful (The Old Testament, or what Hasidics call Tanakh).
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc2.htm
This site has a few examples of people trying REALLY FUCKING HARD to catch Jesus saying to hate gays, and failing.
Jesus said that he is the Word, and that meant many things, but in this context he meant to follow his way. Jesus didn't hate fags, and neither should any real Christian.
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yeah i edit that for jesus shoving things in asses, it was a bad analogy given the context
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Hey, you said Bible, not New Testament.
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the bible cannot be broken apart; it is a whole element, and jesus trumps all of the other content, even later books
but i see why you are saying that
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The things in Leviticus are pretty fucking funny tbh
Friday I am sorry for your lots
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It is my understanding that Jesus didn't come to say "hey forget all that other shit" but more to be like "you guys are doin it a bit wrong here let me help." I could be wrong, though. Haven't read The Brick Testament in a while.
Edit: http://thebricktestament.com/the_teachings_of_jesus/on_the_law_of_moses/mt05_17.html
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"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father, except through Me."
That's Jesus saying that even the bible is just a toy compared to his life and example.
I have a better quote, but I'm having a hard time finding it.
Edit: quotegoeshere
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Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
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Ironically, I've only ever heard of Christians (and Muslims, but I'm not going to go near that topic) being like this about gays. The Jewish people I know are much more sensible about it all, even though they're the ones that still believe in the "stoning homosexuals to death" Testament.
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The jews save their stonings for the recalcitrant children. Ever wonder why Woody is so ugly?
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fuck, my head hurts.
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Too much positive drinking?
Oh:
Sorry that your friend isn't a friend anymore. I don't really have anything useful to say on the subject though... So... Umm...
Eat some protein rich foods (e.g. adolescents over babies) and hydrate? Yeah.
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I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that there's nothing against homosexuality in the bible. Rather I think the correct answer is to point to the history of the bible and the context of the very few passages that do condemn homosexuality. Basically you've got Leviticus which is full of crazy, and one aside in the letters from Paul, which aren't quite as full of crazy, but are clearly incompatible with modern society in many ways that even the most conservative Christians wouldn't be comfortable with.
For context, there are at least 10 times as many places in the bible where lending at interest is condemned, and our society straight up doesn't function without that.
Even if one accepts that the homosexuals are in a state of sin, which I don't think the bible actually supports unless you're willing to bite the bullet on a lot of other stuff, Jesus spent his time hanging out with prostitutes, beggers, money lenders, tax collectors, and lepers. The emphasis of everything Jesus said was community and love and forgiveness. Turning away from a friend is clearly far far further from the teaching of Jesus than fucking somebody of the same sex is.
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friday: drink water
also CUDDLE PARTY
*CUDDLE*
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Kazz is protein rich. He is a beefcake. :want:
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I think that trying to explain to someone why the bible doesn't tell them to hate gays is sort of a lost cause. If some one lives their life by the bible, they are living in willful ignorance, trying to explain something to them "logically" or based on "evidence" is akin to pissing in the ocean in hopes of pissing off a fish. You are dealing with someone who has a much more fundimental problem than just not reading certain parts of the bible or understanding them the way you do.
I mean, clearly anyone who believes that part of being good and faithful is to hate other people based on their sexual orientation has some sort of problem and doesn't actually want to be GOOD and faithful so much as RIGHT and SUPERIOR.
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Heh. "Fundie-mental" Good one Geo. I approve.
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The important thing to understand about most deeply religious people is that if their priest/pastor/spiritual leader did an about-face and said every single thing in their holy text was wrong, the followers would immediately also believe that absolutely everything in their holy texts is wrong.
Debating the Bible is a fun pasttime but it's missing the point so completely that the fundies are actually fully justified in saying that you don't understand. The Church's power doesn't come from any book, any god, or any moral superiority. The Church's power comes from two thousand years of experience in heavily manipulating the dynamics of social pressure. If you have to understand this if you ever have to seriously deal with them.
The concept of "Us" is literally everything to these people. And for there to be an "Us", there must be a "Them". (Godwin goes here.). You can't erase their hate because it's part of what shapes the identity of the group.
The only way to change one of these people is to force them to accept their own individuality. Good luck with that. Most people are more terrified of their own individuality than anything else.
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and the rest just think it means hair dye
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The Jewish people I know are much more sensible about it all, even though they're the ones that still believe in the "stoning homosexuals to death" Testament.
Besides the Hasidim, most Jews nowadays don't believe in any of the 'kill that person for that reason' stuff. As the Tanakh is separate from the the actual laws. And then the other book of laws is mostly "Do all this stuff or you're not a good person, not that anyone will punish besides yourself will do anything about it." And then there have always been the systems of law outside the religious texts that are actually enforced. This along with things like assimilation into other cultures leads most Jews to not really care what others do in their free time as long as it doesn't harm anyone.
Then there's the Israelis, who would care about that stuff, but are too busy with the constant wars with their Muslim neighbors to care about such insignificant things.
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So his wife was in town and I ran into her at a mutual friend's house
So she says in front of everyone just out of the blue basically as soon as I walk in
"I have to leave. I can't be around her, I feel like she's undressing me with her eyes."
Along with everyone else, I just stand there dumbfounded that someone would say this out loud in seriousness
then i throw my head back and roar with laughter as she leaves
p.s. i totally was
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friday we have told you about taking your eyestalks out of their sockets in public
you sinful shameful strumpet
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You should have just winked at her and slapped her on the ass as she walked out.
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I've found that laughing in the face of stupid is often the only response that makes sense.