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[Mongrel]

I don't believe in the deterrent value of anything. Any punishment must be considered on its own immediate merits, nebulous 'social ramifications' notwithstanding.

Trying to scare people into good behaviour is a failure on so many levels. Not least of which is the fact that the people who need it most are too dumb to be scared.

[Bongo Bill]

There's another way to look at it.

The "deterrent" idea, as I understand it, works with the idea that committing a crime should never carry the reasonable expectation of profit. Multiply the average gain from committing a certain type of crime by the probability of getting away with it. If the resulting value exceeds the penalty for crimes of that type, then crime is a favorable gamble. If this is the case, then crime will proliferate to the detriment of society. There are limits to the ability of law enforcement to catch criminals, but the penalty can be controlled fairly well; both elements should be employed to ensure that there is no reasonable expectation that crime should be profitable.

It's very difficult to stop stupid people from doing stupid things. However, you can ensure that smart people are not tempted to try.

[Mongrel]

Well, the thing is that I think that just having appropriate punishments is deterrent enough. Or, more accurately, that's going to have about as good a deterrent effect as you can hope for.

Saying that deterrence should not be a consideration in assigning punishment, does not mean there should be no deterrent at all.

[Thad]

When I hear "feminist", I think of the women who fought for the right to vote, the right to work, the right to birth control and choice, and who are still fighting for equal pay.

I think this is part of the feminist image problem.  The term "feminist" implies someone fighting for something the majority does not believe in, so they assume they are advocating an extremist position.

Most of the issues you listed are no longer considered modern day "feminist" issues

I disagree.  The vote is pretty well secured, but the rest are still being fought to varying degrees.  Men are still given preferential treatment in many, if not most, fields, the right to choose is under constant attack, and birth control is frequently not covered by medical insurance policies that cover drugs for erectile dysfunction.

But I think you may have hit on the issue -- people have a tendency to say, "Well, we're equal now, so stop asking for more."

so people assume they are supporting something else.  Equal pay is still being fought, but it's not something the average person would strongly oppose.

As above -- IMO the reason equal pay isn't an issue on most people's radar is people simply prefer to BELIEVE that women are paid fairly.

You oppose the draft?

You've been awake for some portion of the past six years and think it's a good idea?

Personally, I'm willing to cut a bit of slack for the extreme feminists. Over-the-top though their value may be, they'll probably never have an ounce of the power that your average extreme religious fundamentalist has.

I'm also willing to suspect that some of them have good damn reason to feel the way they do.

Robert Anton Wilson said something in one of his books that went something like this:

He commented that he walked with a limp as a child because he'd had polio.  He added that he wasn't frequently teased about it by other boys, but the girls were relentless -- and that this was because the boys knew he'd punch them in the mouth if they pissed him off, and the girls knew he wouldn't.

Years and years later, he commented to his wife that the reason extreme feminists said the things they did was because they knew nobody was going to punch them in the mouth.

His wife responded that the reason they said the things they did was probably that somebody HAD.

[Bongo Bill]

Well, the thing is that I think that just having appropriate punishments is deterrent enough. Or, more accurately, that's going to have about as good a deterrent effect as you can hope for.

Saying that deterrence should not be a consideration in assigning punishment, does not mean there should be no deterrent at all.

I guess I'm saying that an appropriate punishment is one that makes the crime mathematically unprofitable, which in turn will be a deterrent. An appropriate punishment will deter potential criminals; if it wasn't a deterrent, it wouldn't be appropriate. An excessive one will have the same effect. Appropriate punishments are a subset of deterrents. I guess I've just said the same thing a different way three times.

[Kashan]

Well, the thing is that I think that just having appropriate punishments is deterrent enough. Or, more accurately, that's going to have about as good a deterrent effect as you can hope for.

Saying that deterrence should not be a consideration in assigning punishment, does not mean there should be no deterrent at all.

I guess I'm saying that an appropriate punishment is one that makes the crime mathematically unprofitable, which in turn will be a deterrent. An appropriate punishment will deter potential criminals; if it wasn't a deterrent, it wouldn't be appropriate. An excessive one will have the same effect. Appropriate punishments are a subset of deterrents. I guess I've just said the same thing a different way three times.

But most murders are crimes of passion, profit never figures into it.

[Bal]

Well, the thing is that I think that just having appropriate punishments is deterrent enough. Or, more accurately, that's going to have about as good a deterrent effect as you can hope for.

Saying that deterrence should not be a consideration in assigning punishment, does not mean there should be no deterrent at all.

I guess I'm saying that an appropriate punishment is one that makes the crime mathematically unprofitable, which in turn will be a deterrent. An appropriate punishment will deter potential criminals; if it wasn't a deterrent, it wouldn't be appropriate. An excessive one will have the same effect. Appropriate punishments are a subset of deterrents. I guess I've just said the same thing a different way three times.

But most murders are crimes of passion, profit never figures into it.

The three main types of murder are passion, compulsion, and profit, none of which are subject to detterence

[Thad]

Profit, maybe.  But it's rarely just profit without passion or compulsion.

And, while Bongo's simplistic notion of "likelihood of getting caught times severity of punishment" is technically accurate, there are ceilings on both.  We're never going to catch 100% of criminals (Minority Report notwithstanding), and there's that whole "cruel and unusual" thing that prevents us from meting out any punishment more severe than death, life in prison, or telling all your neighbors you're a child molester for the rest of your life (I see each of these as a pretty severe punishment in its own way).

[Bal]

Profit refers to the professional criminal in most cases. Murder for hire and the like. Murderers in that vein generally don't think they'll be caught, and in any case take it as a professional hazard. Ask any gang member or other professional criminal if they fear prison.

[Bongo Bill]

It is, of course, strictly theoretical and dangerously naïve, at best applicable exclusively to theft and fraud (unless you'd care to try to put a numerical value on the satisfaction of killing someone whom you want to die). Imposing a harsher penalty on murder in this model just means that the market price of a murder increases.

Murder, along with assault, defamation, trespassing, violation of traffic and zoning regulations, recreational drug use, and so forth, are crimes whose primary objective is not profit. That doesn't mean the threat of punishment doesn't deter these activities, just that there's no way to skew the odds in favor of the law.

In short, that interpretation of the concept of deterrence is bullshit outside of a few exceptional cases - and I'd suggest those cases are exceptional precisely because that model has been applied to them. So yeah, Bongo, you're full of crap.

[Arc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSEaHyzbqTA

Wipe them out.

All of them.

[Brentai]

That's an awesome Band-Track title.

[Arc]

Immigration.

Presented a five point argument years back.

Had the audience of country boy conservatives and feminista liberals slapping my back and falling over themselves to shake my hand once I had finished.

The reaction of the actual immigrants in the audience? Wary and shifty-eyed.