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[Mongrel]

Hi, this is Mongrel's wife usurping his computer again...

I have a question for Joxam and/or Malikial.

It's kinda funny coincidence that you mention the Hochunk because I'm building an Age of Empires III custom RPG adventure campaign about the northern migration of the Isanyati (a Siouan people living in South Carolina, considered the progenitors of the Santee in Minnesota). This migration probably took place in around 1200-1500 AD and is attested in many tribes' oral traditions, according to Yankton historian Ella Deloria and some others.

In short, the Isanyati folks numbered about 5000 families and went from the area around the Santee River, SC (near Charleston) westward to the Ohio and Mississippi river valleys, mostly northwards to the Ohio valley at about the Kanawha River junction. From there they continued west along the Ohio, Mississippi, and Missouri rivers. Many undoubtedly stayed put once they reached a large settlement or town, either through illness or as migrant workers or through fosterage. Others won land grants and settlement rights through skirmishes or good faith pledges. A number disappeared from living memory through captivity or bloodshed.

At last about 2-3000 folks made it to settle in southern Minnesota, northeastern Iowa, and parts of Wisconsin and Illinois.

Along the way some of the families may have split off and gone east along the St. Croix and the western shore of Lake Michigan. It's thought this is where these families stayed, establishing the community of Hocangara long before European contact, giving rise to the Ho-Chunk people. Their language is closer to Dakota than it is to the neighbouring languages.

In the scenario this is essentially what happens - although the focus of the game is on escorting your Hero and his family to the end point of Isanyati (Scimitar Lake) or Tintitonwan (modern Minneapolis), one of the players will have two hero units, and the "extra" hero will split off and found Hocangara, but I wanted to check the sources on what actually happened.

It would be nice if the adventure campaign had some historical accuracy to it. What do you think actually happened? What's the "official" Ho-Chunk tradition about the origin of their people and culture? I know that while anthropologists stress a lot of "migration of the peoples", many tribes maintain they have been on a particular site for practical purposes forever. If you guys have any input that would be great.

The foundation of Hocangara is one of the primary objectives, but it can be changed if it appears the "adventure" version is far enough from truth or accepted tradition to be disruptive. FYI there's going to be a fair bit of other truth-stretching and artistic license with the scenario: for instance, the heroes meet and make alliances with friendly NPC rulers of Kado Hadacho (a mound building civ in the mid south that probably predates the Isanyati migration by 300 years), the Aztecs, and the Wendat in eastern Ohio; they fight to stop the ambitious sun chief of Cahokia, who is damming the entire Mississippi (never actually happened). I'm hoping the scenario can be fun and educational, and learn something myself along the way.

[Frocto]

mongrel, this "wife" act is getting old

[Classic]

No. I know a few dudes who have wives as a cover. It is plausible.

[Büge]

I've met Starr. She's a grand old dame saint crazy cat lady unique individual.

[Mongrel]

It's okay. If Starr's fake, it means I'm actually smart enough to do all that research myself.

[Joxam]

I don't know nearly as much about the very early history of my tribe as I should. You make something to do with the introduction and subsequent occupation of the tribe's lands by white people, though, and we have a lot of recorded history on that. As an aside, I could, if you'd like to talk to them, put you into contact with our historical department at our tribal offices. You could just tell them you're writing a essay about the early history of the region, they don't have to know its actually a game mod. :D

[Mongrel]

Sure, just PM me the contact info...I'm just going to ask what's known about the precontact history, although I'm sure there's much more relevant interest and documentation of what happened after european contact.

It's kind of sad that so much of North American history has been lost to memory. I mean, people did important things, went places, built and razed towns just like anywhere else, before Europeans showed up. The Isanyati odyssey on a human logistics scale is at least as big and a lot farther than the Exodus of the Bible, with more tribes and groups involved, took longer, encompassed more civilizations, etc. but for lack of written testimony only a literal hand full of people know it may have even happened.

[R^2]

The Isanwhoza Odywhatnow?

[Brentai]

Buncha migrants.

[Dooly]

Google hasn't even heard of that one.

[Mongrel]

It's mostly conjecture based on ethnographic accounts from a handful of tribal groups. Even the linguistic analysis is uncertain whether to put the origins of the migrating Siouan speakers in the southeastern US, the Ohio Valley, or even down in the Mississippi delta.

However, a more recent event traces the migration of a small remnant of a different tribe (the Saponi) inland and north through the Appalachians, in the time just after contact.

Of course, there's no hard archaeological evidence: no distinguishing pottery, carvings, or housing foundations. Most likely, the Santee of the southeast built and made houses and pottery and things much like their neighbours, or traded for what they didn't have as they moved around.

I ran across the terms Isanyati and Tintitonwan at the Hennepin County Historical Museum which is a two-story building with a few exhibits, most of them dealing with the logging and wheat farming, but a few displays showing how Father Hennepin first came into contact with the Mdewakanton along the Mississippi. (It ended badly, but not necessarily on account of anything Father Hennepin did.)

At this point the project is to cobble together a nice campaign based around what amounts to little more than a romantic notion culled from elders' lore and the voluble hot air of Wasichu scholarship. It would be nice if it turned out that many other tribes recalled things that lent credence to this. There's nothing particularly special about coming from South Carolina and going to any other place. It's just that it hints at a far richer sociopolitical landscape in North America than we were fed in grade school.

Even if it's mostly BS as a couple websites seem to indicate, it makes a good game plot. That said, i don't particularly want to contribute to the continued misinformation out there by promoting garbage and magical thinking by idle white folks with nothing better to do. (Like myself.)

[Zaratustra]

split topic plz