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[Friday]

sometimes I see Niku micspamming as a spy but it DOESN'T HELP because he is usually micspamming something that incapacitates me with laughter

[Bleck]

sometimes I see Niku micspamming as a spy but it DOESN'T HELP because he is usually micspamming something that incapacitates me with laughter

I'M MR WHITE CHRISTMAS

I'M MR SNOOOOW

[Kayin]

I would recommend everyone listening to Defenestration. I could use some more points.

Anyways, saying 'most people don't hear the sound!' as a strategic defense is silly. You end up taking unnecessary risks. There are people who will hear it and kill you. Anything risky like that is not the proper application of a tactic. Geo is 100% right. There is nothing "Area of Denial" about the spy. Infact that is the OPPOSITE of what the spy is. I think he's best applied occasionally as ANTI Area of Denial (removing sentries, snipers and other guard dogs).

Problem with the Cloak and Dagger I think is that it helps for the wrong things you use cloak for. Cloak is for the retreat. It's to get you out of dodge for the next kill. Its good in other situations too of course, but I think extraction is the most important part. It's so important that the Dead Ringer is super popular on Shadow Moses. DR is almost 100% extraction. The Cloak and Dagger take away the extraction possibilities and give him things he doesn't particularly need.

I think he should just be able to walk more with it. In fact, I think it should maybe even have longer cloak and decloak times in exchange for having even greater mobility.

[James Edward Smith]

The only concept I can come up with for it that I like is a long cloak and decloak time, but invulnerability from damage when cloaked, at least when standing still.

[Mongrel]

So Doom, question (because I'm curious, not because I'm going to start main-ing spy).

Regular Knife, Eternal Reward, or 'situational'?

Please show all math.

[Niku]

Eternal Reward is at its best when you have just switched to be the first spy on your team and the enemies have no idea their teammates are dropping one by one from the back forward.  I've been favoring Eternal Reward with Invis Watch and Knife with Dead Ringer.

[Doom]

I don't have an Eternal Reward but as far as I can tell, "No Disguise, Backstab to get Super Disguise" goes two ways:

1) Retard Kamikaze Spy who needs to get that first circle-strafe 180-stab to start any possible chain reactions of stab-disguise-stab-disguise. Even easier to counter than actual spies.

2) ... Anybody with serious patience and good watch use. Makes the Cloak and Dagger viable. Can probably ruin Nests better, assuming you get the first stab off before the sentry finishes turning to kill you.

Like the Dead Ringer, it's a viable class-style change that is relatively balanced and lends itself to personal preference and leads to a null value "Doesn't matter, do what you like, they're all viable" answer. And hey, it makes the C&D more useful. It's not the knife that is situational, it's the watch!

Now how they did this and let the Soldier and Scout Upgrade Packs get in is a mystery.

[Saturn]

the new pistol makes it actually possible to refill the CnD at a reasonable rate

and stab and sap is STUPID easy with the new knife

[Niku]

Unfortunately, the Eternal Reward is the worst fucking thing in the world for stab and sap if you're not already disguised first.  Unless they've finally patched it recently, if you gain any sentry aggro before getting a stab-disguise-kill, the aggro remains on you until you are out of range or dead.  Obviously you wouldn't be trying this on a level 3 nest or anything anyway, but it's extremely frustrating against robot engies and level 1s and the like.

[A²]

To add to Doom's knowlege base, as an owner of the full Spy set, the decloak sound on the Dead Ringer with the full Saharan Spy is disgustingly quiet. Like I can decloak right behind someone and as long as there's gunfire, they won't even bat an eye.

Granted, Spy Set + DR makes for a really, really interesting Spy playstyle. You can't cloak on demand or disguise on demand. Viable or not?

[Mongrel]

One thing I've noticed is that Eternal Reward punishes bad teamwork and rewards good teamwork. If you die to SUPERSILENT STABBY, then the onus is on you to immediately warn your teammates. If you do, there's a good possibility that you can prevent further mayhem. But if you're a lazy asshole (or don't have a mic), the spy will chew through your team.

It really is easy for a good spy who can time things right to get that first kill because JESUS, ARE YOU EVER QUIET (there is zero audible warning for the EW other than a DR decloak and as Lyrai pointed out, the new spy set addresses that), but your progress after that really depends heavily on the other team.

Also, yes, the theoretical scenario of a big gang of morons all near each other in single file does happen, but when people are spread out it certainly affects your chances of success. Once you go nuts you need to keep going nuts - and fast - or you quickly become a 125hp stain.

[Doom]

You don't need to "go nuts" if your watch has cloak and you have even mild map knowledge.

also what are the restrictions on chat/mic while dead

but like even then it is almost impossible to deliver an accurate, meaningful spy warning

[Mongrel]

A quick "Spy is me!" actually works pretty well if people are alert.

I don't remember the default mic restrictions, but on most servers you can speak while dead.

[Defenestration]

To add to Doom's knowlege base, as an owner of the full Spy set, the decloak sound on the Dead Ringer with the full Saharan Spy is disgustingly quiet. Like I can decloak right behind someone and as long as there's gunfire, they won't even bat an eye.

Granted, Spy Set + DR makes for a really, really interesting Spy playstyle. You can't cloak on demand or disguise on demand. Viable or not?

More than viable. From my own observations and first hand experience, it's almost broken.

[MadMAxJr]

The new spy set, no matter what watch you take, is all about the initial passing through the enemy front line to get into the back.

Regular watch:  Cloak, advance carefully, pass through the line, find a nice cozy corner to lurk.

Cloak and Dagger: See above, only take twice as long because your gauge drops like a bad stock market day.  The pistol is actually pretty useful here to harass and refill your gauge.

Dead Ringer: Get the attention of some enemy who won't set you on fire.  Spend your few seconds of cloak very carefully to pick a target and maneuver over to him.  Your decloak is damn near silent.  You don't even have to pass very far through the front line.

All of the above are retardedly fun on payload maps.  Most pub players are so focused on looking in one direction isn't not impossible to pull off the 4 to 6 man shankageddon.