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[Kayin]

I dunno, Pyro filling a redundant and boring class role that isn't particularly necessary or pyro being a slightly amusing support class that does some unique stuff but makes no sense? .... I... I dunno man.  Like I said before, if I made the game (ignoring the legecy of TFC), there wouldn't be a pyro at all and no heavy like there is now. Playing support IS something, even if I think the current changes are poorly conceived. Anyways increased speed would just lead to "W THEN M1". The Pyro is quite fast to begin with so setup time usually isn't an issue. As for a fan jump, I can't think how much that would actually help for the roll you intend. Also we're starting to move from a "Slower heavy with less HP" "To a slower scout with more RP (and AOE) damage".

So what I'm saying is... Fuckin' Pyros, how should they work?!

I don't even know. Either direction sounds "fine" to me, barring a stroke of brilliance. I still hold a fetish for the idea of the pyro squirting fuel that he can set on fire later for short area denial or traps but even that steps on other classes toes. Also it'd probably be super obnoxious, too strong and god forbid playing for WEEKS after that update comes out.

[Makaris]

With my suggested changes he would still have all his supporty things, he just wouldn't be able to counter spam quite as well while also being able to, like... occasionally kill stuff.  The class is at a disadvantage in EVERY 1v1 situation.  Regardless of whether you want the class to have a function in high level play or not, the class deserves some buffs.  Even if they don't make the class interesting, because I don't think TF2 has the sort of resources to make that sort of a change and have it be good.  Just.  Buff.  Something.

And the lose of speed while firing would defeat W+M1'ness.  At least, it would require the player to stagger their attacks.

[Kayin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thaP_5d8ZpQ&feature=related

Maybe we should just totally replace the flame thrower with an AWESOME flame thrower.

[Makaris]

Agreed.  It should look like that!  Look at the reach on that thing.  At least medium range!    

Valve can do the easy thing, like tweeking some numbers, to improve the class.  But if Valve actually wanted to spend the resources, they could make a real fix... which would probably require big changes to the class.  They could come up with something I am sure.

[patito]

Yeah, actually, increasing the distance on the pyro's flamethrower would be nice. The problem is, that the pyro is still really deadly if he gets close to you, like right next to you, unless you're a heavy or a guy with a wooden shield. Decreasing afterburn time isn't that a big a deal in the long run, and it basically equates to less damage for medics to heal if you are that concerned about that. Flare gun does some decent damage at a distance, about as much as a rocket, but about as easy to aim as a DH or a huntsman. Like kayin said, he's pretty redundant as it is right now, and giving him a second jump wouldn't really help him that much, scouts use their jump in combat while soldiers and demos can attack from high places, pyros would just get somewhere faster and die just as fast.

[Zaratustra]

The afterburn reduction is a big problem for people (like me) whose strategy is:

1) find the largest group of enemies
2) jump in the middle of them and cause as much damage as possible
3) die

Plus, it's much harder to keep scouts and spies out of the back line now.

[Mongrel]

I think the afterburn loss really kills him the hardest. Yes, it rewards the noobish "hit them once and pray for burn damage to be effective" and it also gives good medic uber fuel, but noobs will still die before their targets do (who may even survive) and bad pyros DESERVE to be punished faster opposing ubers.

Afterburn was something that was truly unique to the class. It gave the pyro different options that no other class had and made him strategically interesting in ways that otehr classes could not duplicate. The fact that the afterburn required "no skill" is like saying sentries require "no skill".

To me, the afterburn loss is much worse than the straight damage nerf.

[Bongo Bill]

So here's how I'd shake this guy up. First, I'd revamp afterburn. Specifically, I'd make it "contagious." There can be four kinds of fire: twelve-second, six-second, three-second, and one-second burn. An enemy afflicted with one kind of fire spreads the immediately weaker kind to any enemy they come into contact with, unless they're already on fire. This encourages attacking enemy groups. The exact durations can be tweaked, and maybe the amount of damage per second can be reduced as well. Playtesting would reveal this.

The default flamethrower can stay roughly as it is, but it becomes the unlockable. The more complex weapon with a significant tradeoff deserves to be something that an experienced player can decide whether or not they want more. This weapon causes six-second fire, whereas the other flamethrower and the flaregun cause twelve-second fire.

The Backburner, now the default weapon, can keep the full damage from the original. Maybe even increase it a little. The auto-crits from behind are out. It gains an alt-fire, though: a fire blast, similar to the air blast, but which does damage instead of reflecting projectiles. It has a longer range and a wider cone, and deals more damage than normal, but costs a huge amount of ammunition, prevents firing for a while after using it, and causes Force-A-Nature-style self-knockback (but no enemy knockback). Counting the cooldown, it would do slightly higher damage per second than a sustained stream of fire (not counting the cooldown it'd be ridiculously strong), but the tradeoff is that it's a grossly less efficient use of ammunition. More important is the self-knockback, however, which would drastically increase the mobility of a skilled player.

In this way, just charging the enemy with the default flamethrower remains just as effective as before, which is to say not effective against someone who knows what they're doing, but still gloriously effective in lower-level play. The ability to get around faster has proven a highly effective choice for Soldiers and Demomen and it's a big part of what makes Scouts so fearsome; something similar for Pyro would surely raise the skill ceiling. Flanking and ambushing are still the operative skills, only now you've got specific powers conducive to those goals, instead of just having to run around with average speed.

Every other class has something that affects mobility in some way, except for Medic and Engineer, who are arguably not about mobility in the first place. The exploding guys have their various -jumps, the Scout's got double- and even triple-jumping. The Spy can move without being detected. Even Sniper and Heavy have their handicaps that force them to think about where they're planted themselves. Mobility matters in this game, and for a class who needs to move a lot, it's a striking oversight that Pyro doesn't have any options other than just walking.

[patito]

I still think you guys don't understand that mobility is not the pyro's problem, it's the fact that he has a very short range weapon. Just because he could climb into the battlements on 2fort this wouldn't fix his problem, he'd kill a sniper or two, but a soldier, a demo or a heavy could still make short work of him, even if he were to somehow surprise them.

The damage nerf on the flamethrower is a bad thing, afterburn not so much, but I am sad that it got rid of the hilarious situations where people would steal their medic's health packs to put out the flames. Afterburn would be much better if they had increased the amount of damage per tick, instead of leaving it as is and reducing the duration.

Still, Pyro still kind of sucks as a class in general, the fact that he's being shoehorned into a support position is not so bad, after all much like the heavy, he is pretty good when he has other classes around.

[Bleck]

Guys, guys! It's not the fact that it's a short range weapon! It's the fact that it's a short range weapon that can barely damage anything

[NexAdruin]

It can't be just the fact that he has a short ranged weapon, because the scout has 2 melee weapons and a can of soda and he isn't a horrible class.

[patito]

2 cans of soda.

Still, mobility is the scout's thing, giving that to another class is not the right way to balance the game, I have said before I dislike the pain train for that reason.

But yeah, like Bleck said, the flamethrower also has puny damage unless you are right next to someone, where it does a ton of damage over a period of time, unlike the scattergun which delivers damage in an instant.

The short of it is, pyro kind of sucks as a class, I have no idea what would fix him anymore.

[NexAdruin]

I meant the scout has two melees and a can of soda at any one time (scattergun and FAN are melee weapons. they just happen to use the primary slot).

[James Edward Smith]

Heheh, sorry, still laughing about that catloaf post of how soldiers and demolishers are the no skill classes... hahahah...

ahhhh...

Anyway.


I really can't say how to fix the pyro. I mean he really was just the class for people who can't aim. He sort of served an ambush role too in that if he snuck up on a huge group of enemy that didn't see him he could inflict a lot of potential damage (burn damage) with a few swaying sprays and then focus on one guy to actually kill him.

Really his most effective use was punishing people for being vulnerable. If you are reloading or not spinning or whatever, the pyro could kill you for it. Any other class you have a chance, you can dodge their shots, avoid their fire. But with the pyro, you cant' make him "miss". His primary weapon constantly fires, never has to change to a new magazine, and has 200 ammo. Trying to dodge him only buys you at best, time. It seldom saves your life like dodging a soldier's rocket does.

He was the test. Are you good at your class? If you can land enough rockets/pills/whatever to kill him, he's dead, if you can't then you're dead cause there's no way he can miss unless he's retarded. Water is your only rescuer.

He wasn't an awful class though. He was good for spy killing and noobs liked him. He lead to a lot less bullshit lucky rockets killing you cause you can see some dumb pyro coming and if you can't kill him then you aren't as good as you think you are.

I liked the Poofer originally cause poofing people off terrain is funny as are giving ubers tampoline rides, reversing crit rockets or blowing a bad demo's stickies at him. Now he's all wierd though and what the hell is the point of that dumb hammer?

It's like old Grandpa Rico used to say: "That thing is a stupider than a thread about micspam filled with catloaf posts that gets derailed into a discussion about stuns in an action game!"

[Rockman]

Geo, I miss you.  Call me.

And soldiers totally require zero skill. 

[Makaris]

The afterburn reduction is a big problem for people (like me) whose strategy is:

1) find the largest group of enemies
2) jump in the middle of them and cause as much damage as possible
3) die

Plus, it's much harder to keep scouts and spies out of the back line now.

I kinda feel like this post needs more attention.  I know that the above suggested strategy doesn't really require much skill, but it does serve a function that could give the Pryo a sort of decent niche; breaking up attacks/defenses by causing people to give up their position to go find some health.  I remember this tactic being touted as one of the Pyro's main points.  I think it was called 'blazing' or something?

A carefully crafted buff to Afterburn would be interesting.  Something to give it the intended effect of making people drop what they're doing and scuttle for some health, without outright slaughtering a group of people.

At this point is seems somewhat appropriate to just dump every under-utilized niche strategy onto the Pyro and see what the player does with it.  Spy Checking, putting out fires, breaking up/stalling ubers, halting spam, breaking up sticky farms, being an Engie's BFF, and oh yeah you can kill people occassionally.  Alone they wouldn't justify a class, but together... he could have some purpose?

I kinda see where Patito train of thought is going.  In the end though, if the Pyro isn't going to be given an easier time of getting into close range, than those that do manage to get into close range need to be really rewarded for it.  Either more mobility, extreme close range domination, or tons of useful utility jobs.  One of those things has to be really stand out to justify the class.

[James Edward Smith]

Geo, I miss you.  Call me.

And soldiers totally require zero skill. 

I've never known some skintight uniform wearing child robot!

[Mongrel]

The afterburn reduction is a big problem for people (like me) whose strategy is:

1) find the largest group of enemies
2) jump in the middle of them and cause as much damage as possible
3) die

Plus, it's much harder to keep scouts and spies out of the back line now.

I kinda feel like this post needs more attention.  I know that the above suggested strategy doesn't really require much skill, but it does serve a function that could give the Pryo a sort of decent niche; breaking up attacks/defenses by causing people to give up their position to go find some health.  I remember this tactic being touted as one of the Pyro's main points.  I think it was called 'blazing' or something?

A carefully crafted buff to Afterburn would be interesting.  Something to give it the intended effect of making people drop what they're doing and scuttle for some health, without outright slaughtering a group of people.

At this point is seems somewhat appropriate to just dump every under-utilized niche strategy onto the Pyro and see what the player does with it.  Spy Checking, putting out fires, breaking up/stalling ubers, halting spam, breaking up sticky farms, being an Engie's BFF, and oh yeah you can kill people occassionally.  Alone they wouldn't justify a class, but together... he could have some purpose?

I kinda see where Patito train of thought is going.  In the end though, if the Pyro isn't going to be given an easier time of getting into close range, than those that do manage to get into close range need to be really rewarded for it.  Either more mobility, extreme close range domination, or tons of useful utility jobs.  One of those things has to be really stand out to justify the class.

The other advantage of "blazing" (huh huhhuh huh) is that it was a small boost to the unskilled player, in that the strategy was equally valid across skill levels, but increased skill led to better survivability in using what's nominally a suicide tactic.

[Catloaf]

Blazing:  Best to do it when there's a group of your buddies right around the corner.  Preferably one containing a heavy-medic team, so the heavy can pick them off, while the medic can keep you from dying while you rack up the assists.

[Defenseless Cow]

EXCITING NINJA CRAFT UPDATE.


Razorback + Targe = Gunboats
Kritzkrieg + Bonk = Crit-a-Cola
Sandman + Scrap Metal = Pain Train
Sandvich + Bonk = Chocolate Bar
Equalizer + Eyelander = Homewrecker

Most importantly, now only takes 2 items to make scrap metal.