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[Ziiro]

Oh, I'll agree that the item drop, crafting, and lack of trading (You know, the thing that would solve the previous problems) is bullshit. That's had me raging since patch day and idling on and off. When I said quality control I meant quality control of community items/their own items.

However, I think knocking the newest community items or the idea behind it isn't as agreeable. I think that Valve has quite a deal going on. If you search hard enough you'll find diamonds in the shit pool - that shit pool being the people who want to come up with the items for TF2. For very minimal work on their part, they're going to add a lot of new equipment to TF2. Some useful, most not. Some filling a niche that is probably stupid and shouldn't exist. (Homewrecker). I see it as adding diversity of the game in a good way - I don't like my minigun choice being binary. I want to get one that caters to my style perfectly.

I can see how you're resentful of the change that has come to the game. You bought a class-based FPS that has partially evolved into Pseudo RPG bullshit.

[patito]

I don't like my minigun choice being binary. I want to get one that caters to my style perfectly.

No, see, that's the problem. I agree that natasha isn't a particular big change in gameplay like the huntsman or the direct hit to a certain degree, but wishing that some random community member design an item that would totally change how the heavy plays is a really bad idea. If valve were the ones designing such a item then I'd have no problem with that, since they'd probably be more careful about balance decisions when it comes to it. if you want a different playstyle than what the heavy offers, you have 8 other classes.

Also, charging targe + pain train = SCOTLAND'S POINT CAPTURING MACHINE

Also, this or even sticky bomb + pain train already makes a huge difference for game mechanics, since capturing faster is a big deal. I mean, sure, you take a token amount of increased damage, but taking points faster is a lot more helpful.

On the other hand I have no problem with the homewrecker or the chocolate bar since they really are there for novelty value and add little to the game.

[Ziiro]

If valve were the ones designing such a item then I'd have no problem with that, since they'd probably be more careful about balance decisions when it comes to it.

But that's just it - I would think that Valve is looking as carefully over these items as they would their own. It's not like they receive an item and they will only outright deny or approve it - obviously they're going to tweak the mechanics to their liking.

[Doom]

You guys are kuh-razy if you think being able to make use of the defining feature of another class(Scout's Double Cap) isn't worth taking an extra 1-6 points of damage from bullet weapons. 10% is a joke.

[patito]

But that's just it - I would think that Valve is looking as carefully over these items as they would their own. It's not like they receive an item and they will only outright deny or approve it - obviously they're going to tweak the mechanics to their liking.

You would like to think that, but Pain Train is really really good and that means that valve obviously didn't really pay close attention to it.

[Kayin]

Uhm thats nice but uh... You're wrong and uh...also your Mom.

More items/options =/= Better. This is a very very basic concept in game design. Imagine chess where all units did something different! That would not be a better game. In fact it would probably be a much worse game. The design space would be pretty cramped to have to support this and it'd be hard to give any defined roles to things. The game just becomes a mess, where situations are hard to recognize and the cause and effects of events cause the game to almost become random.

Less isn't better either, but it's usually safer. You can make a good game with very little (checkers), but things will break down as size increases unless it's carefully managed.

So what happened when TFC became TF2? A few things. SUBTRACTIVE DESIGN, mostly. Removal of redundancies between classes, grenades going bye bye, a much more limited selection of weapons... Roles were defined more heavily to give classes more definite purposes and uses. Somewhere along the line, Valve figured "Hey, we can afford a bit more diversity". The game could about support 1 alternative weapon for everything (especially where the weapon being replaced was simple) and maybe a few others here and there when appropriate.

So items were added to spice things up. Most filled the same roles but gave new skills to execute and have fun with. Some sorta redfined how the class could be played (Sniper and Demo), to fill game play niches that weren't filled. Other items just helped compensate for some weaknesses for some tradeoffs. Generally things have been pretty strong in that sense.

Adding a buttload of new items falls in the fact of that. I don't care if they're easy for Valve to implement. I DON'T WANT THEM. I want smart, well designed items that have direct benefit to gameplay and the games depth. Less is often more. Any additional unlocks to the standard set of unlocks should be VERY CAREFULLY CONSIDERED to deal with specific issues and shortcomings (T.A.N.K :D), not just be there for the sake of being there.

You don't DESERVE to get a minigun that perfectly fits your play style. There are 9 classes to pick from with alternative weapons for each! That does not benefit the game as a whole, it only complicates it in a bad way. You do not want to complicate games while not adding depth. Thats TERRIBLE. Instead you SHOULD be stuck with the weapons that were carefully created, with their interactions carefully considered.

Games like Quake 3, Star Craft or Street Fighter II are successful and almost eternal because they have very solid, defined options, characters, weapons and races and aren't just a bunch of mush.

[Lottel]

Uhm thats nice but uh... You're wrong and uh...also your Mom.

Imagine chess where all units did something different!

You mean... Chess?

[Ziiro]

Well, This is interesting. It appears that the designer of the weapon only made the model, and had nothing to do with the actual stats or the fact it ended up in the hands of the soldier/demo.

So the stats for the Pain Train and the Sledge have a good chance of being done by Valve's design, with just some community models slapped on.

[patito]

Now we know it's actually the C-Team coming up with the new weapons, great.

[Kayin]

Uhm, there are  16 pieces per side with only 6 "classes" so no, not every piece is different.

Also yeah, it is Valve's doing. I never suspected they blindly let community ideas though. Instead I am pissed they're willing to litter the game with 'crap' items that do little stupid shit.

[Ziiro]

Make a mod for servers called "Team Fortress 2: Classic" where it removes all items and people are forced to use the basic weapons.

You could be like those people who play WoW and have characters locked at level 60 and just do Pre-TBC content.

[yyler]

Make a mod for servers called "Team Fortress 2: Classic" where it removes all items and people are forced to use the basic weapons.

You could be like those people who play WoW and have characters locked at level 60 and just do Pre-TBC content.

BUT YOU CANT FIX THE DROPS!!! I DIDNT PAY FOR THIS GAME!!! DAMN IT, VALVE!!!

[Kayin]

 

Or I dunno, the TF2 team could actually not be morons and add content (and control how you receive that content) intelligently?

[Lottel]

I still want Kayin to clarify what he meant by Chess having different units that do different things.

[yyler]

That Strawman later became the kind of Oz, so I am taking that as a compliment.

Anyway bad content delivery is an old complaint and I am tired of hearing it and it is no longer interesting but thanks Kayin for making the same arguments we all made ten months ago or whatever.

[Ziiro]

the TF2 team... add content (and control how you receive that content) intelligently?

 

When I say "caters to my playstyle" I don't mean outside the required role of a heavy. I mean give the Heavy a Minigun that helps him stand in the front of a charge and help him survive more bullet fire at the cost of less damage done. Or maybe add synergistic items to classes: A shotgun replacer that increases healing received from from medics.

[Catloaf]

the TF2 team... add content (and control how you receive that content) intelligently?

 

When I say "caters to my playstyle" I don't mean outside the required role of a heavy. I mean give the Heavy a Minigun that helps him stand in the front of a charge and help him survive more bullet fire at the cost of less damage done. Or maybe add synergistic items to classes: A shotgun replacer that increases healing received from from medics.

So, You'd love a weapon for heavy, that did little to no damage, but bullet-stunned/pushed people(like a sentry when you're ubered, obnoxious, but no real threat), but make you faster and have even more health--making the player a assist type character?

[Kayin]

I still want Kayin to clarify what he meant by Chess having different units that do different things.

All 16 pieces have unique and different movement rules.

That Strawman later became the kind of Oz, so I am taking that as a compliment.

Anyway bad content delivery is an old complaint and I am tired of hearing it and it is no longer interesting but thanks Kayin for making the same arguments we all made ten months ago or whatever.

Odd, I don't recall people bitching about about Valve adding shitty community content 10 months ago!

When I say "caters to my playstyle" I don't mean outside the required role of a heavy. I mean give the Heavy a Minigun that helps him stand in the front of a charge and help him survive more bullet fire at the cost of less damage done. Or maybe add synergistic items to classes: A shotgun replacer that increases healing received from from medics.

Well then what you're saying is what they were doing previously? Having every sorta tradeoff is terrible though. Instead of seeing a heavy and knowing what I'm in for, I need to see the heavy and ID like, 6 weapons to figure out what the hell they're rolling with. Or knowing whether or not they have some shotgun replacement the makes them heal faster. These sorts of ideas don't even really alter gameplay in any fun and interesting ways though. Sinking more damage and doing less just leads to mostly the same outcome since you really can't pick people off as well. Sure, it'd come up at times, but really, more interesting and clever ideas need to be perused.

Which, you know, is again what they were doing.

[patito]

When I say "caters to my playstyle" I don't mean outside the required role of a heavy. I mean give the Heavy a Minigun that helps him stand in the front of a charge and help him survive more bullet fire at the cost of less damage done. Or maybe add synergistic items to classes: A shotgun replacer that increases healing received from from medics.

Again, the heavy is not supposed to be able to charge recklessly like that and live, he's mostly a support class, if you have your team around you when you charge you are pretty much invincible. And you already do little damage with the minigun at long range, so reducing that even further is a bad thing.

Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad.

[Niku]

p.s. all other retardation aside, why doesn't the demoman get the homewrecker since it+targe makes more sense (in a really fucking stupid way) since a demo with targe won't have his stickies to destroy buildings with anyway