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[Kayin]

Protip: TF2 is not a single player game.

[Bal]

And when they introduce something that has any negative effect on the balance of the game through this system, you be sure to let me know.

[Kayin]

And junking up a game with crap is fine? Okay okay, maybe if you have no idea what you're talking about or how good games are made and maintained.  As I said on TT...

"Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all his sentences short, or that he avoid all detail and treat his subjects only in outline, but that every word tell."

This also applies to video games. When you add what amounts to crap, it just mucks things up. It doesn't instantly destroy the game, but it erodes it's quality. Playing today there was already some nonsense +9 demo/soldier caps and shit like that. Or pyros running around with home wreckers being ineffectual. While I certainly still had fun today, these unlocks have been nothing but a negative and if this is the sign of a trend to come, then this is only going to get worse.

Is it wrong to be annoyed that they are literally grinding down the quality of the game? Is it wrong to dread them replacing brilliantly conceived unlocks with diablo-esque line item buffs?

Man, some of you just have no idea what you're talking about.

[Bal]

I disagree that mostly aesthetic changes with a couple of novelty items thrown in are ruining the game, but if it bothers you go play on servers with serious players like I used to, where people only use the optimal weapons, most of which are the originals. With really serious players they don't even use three of the classes (Pyro, spy [extremely rarely used], and heavy). I guess you can turn TF2 into Super Turbo if you want, but as I recall it's supposed to be wacky good times.

[Kayin]

but as I recall it's supposed to be wacky good times.

Actually I thought it was supposed to be super well designed fun times, but I guess why it was good in the first place is lost on a lot of you who can't see past the novelty of the game. Take all the crap out of TFC, really distill the individual class roles down to their wonderful, gooey cores. Brisk, intelligent and stylish game design filled with fun, well designed gameplay and set of high quality maps.

If this is a game about having a "wacky good time", why isn't SM a 24 hour low gravity cyberpunk server?

[Bal]

It still is super well designed fun times.

Claiming that I can't "see past the novelty" is ridiculous, given that not only did I used to play at a high level, but I played against primarily high level players. This does not change the fact that TF2 as a product is supposed to be big wacky explosions, funny hats, and ludicrous locales.

Just pretend it's SSBM and play 3 stock no items.

[Kayin]

It's a slightly less super well designed fun time, with the possibility of slipping down even further. It's disappointing to me that someone who played the game seriously would miss this -- or maybe thats the problem.

I'm all okay with playing a messed up game in a little bubble of goodness, but TF2 is wonderful because, unlike say Smash, it manages to be good, generally balanced fun across a  large spectrum of skill. The game isn't so rickety that I have to avoid pubs or anything. I can play with guys like Yeoz (No offense!) who aren't really good at all, while guys like me or Patito or Cow duke it out at the same time. As opposed to a game like any of the smash bros that have pretty much no consideration for anything and are just random, chaotic 'fun'.

TF2 gives both the well designed, potentially competitive gameplay AND the fun crazy pubbie gameplay and both don't need to be mutually exclusive! It's easy to ignore any crap if you just go play PUGs or something, but I think the game, from the perspective of someone who plays 'casually serious', that this stuff is damaging. Not extremely damaging, but damaging. But I am also a game design fag, so this stuff bothers me at a different, fundamental level outside of actually playing the game (so if you say you don't care or this is insignificant, thats one thing, if anyone says this is actually good game design, I'm just going to flat out drop kick you).

Anyways, TF2 is the only game I can think of where pretty much all my friends can play and have fun at different levels with each other.

[Bal]

Yeah, but I don't think more wacky doo-dads is going to break that aspect of the game, and the "serious" aspect is still there if you know where to look, so I'm really not seeing the problem. Perhaps Shadow Moses will become even more intolerable is your worry, but I really don't think anyone who isn't in to super refined games is even going to notice beyond "oh neat a new thing"

[patito]

And when they introduce something that has any negative effect on the balance of the game through this system, you be sure to let me know.

The Pain Train is such an item. It removes the need for scouts for fast caps, maybe the scout has other uses with his speed, but if you're a competent demo or a soldier with a medic you can do some really easy point capping and cart pushing.

As fun as it is to be a fast capping explosive machine, the game had a class designed specifically to have that one advantage with none of the firepower.

[Doom]

I don't like the Homewrecker for the same reason I don't like the Backburner or the Razorback: using it legitimately makes you less effective at your class in exchange for a stupid 1% situational buff that tricks the unaware or the stubborn. Out of minor respect to the Backburner, I will say that it's not as bad as the Homewrecker's 1%, but it has definitely earned it's reputation as a discredit to team.

It's not even useful in the same sort of novelty fun way that Fist Heavy or 25 HP Equalizer Soldier would be because the standard Fire Axe would be better in every way. Flat out useless items can just fuck right off. The Homewrecker would be more welcome as a statless reskinning of Pyro's Fire Axe.

And then we leap into the realm of the outright bad with the Pain Train, where-in we pass the defining feature of one class to two other classes who're already absolute juggernauts in every conceivable fight situation. I really don't want to see this sort of thing repeated. The Charging Targe + Eyelander are more respectable because they give the Demoman some sizeable penalties to compensate for his new super-powers: the loss of the sticky launcher is colossal.

I'm also skeptical of the whole "Valve will balance them if they're really that bad!" thing so many of you bring up because I know it took about a year for the Needle Gun to be put on equal footing with the Blutsager, the Equalizer still has a 90% equip rate and the Razorback exists at all.

Nobody's gonna throw a fit or pine for the good old days of no unlocks, but they will grit their teeth a little at people actually using the Homewrecker or Soldiers capping the last point of Gravelpit at the downside of maybe taking an extra 6 damage per shotgun spray. It's questionable design any way you slice it. It's a pack of dumb strawmen I see you guys tossing at Kayin. He and any other TF2 player are right to wonder why the item quality is so poor. Do all good ideas take 3-6 months to brainstorm?

I'm not naive enough to suggest that getting these three items somehow denied us three mythical, better items. If anything, I'm intensely curious for them to add some more user items so they can demonstrate that this might just be a misfire.

[Mongrel]

Geo and I were gabbling a bit about the pain train last night. It just seems like a no-brainer that it'll be nerfed.

The pain train's existence almost makes the scout into a sort of whole-class backburner, in the sense that, yes he has situational uses but really you'd be just straight up better off playing another, better class.

As for what kayin has to say, well I'm a bit of a "game design fag" myself and I know exactly what he's talking about, cluttering up something clean and elegant with useless stuff.

Now, in the case of crap like the homewrecker, I'm not too concerned because it'll just become like the backburner or razorback: people who use them will be seen as "bad  players" and their use will be discouraged by social means. It's sad that a cool skin won't see use, but game balance will be maintained.

But the more I think about it, the more the pain train makes me worry. That a single item takes such a huge greasy shit on a single class like that demonstrates that whoever is approving or writing these items has no understanding of the near-perfect balance the game had in the beginning.

I suppose if it gets much worse, it still won't be that bad. You'll just start to see "no unlocks" servers proliferate. But that's still a condemnation of poor design (Just like the hat mod that servers use is an indictment of the poor implementation of prestige items). And it's still depressing that yeah a once-great game has been handed off to  "The C team" to play around with.

[Makaris]

I don't like the Homewrecker for the same reason I don't like the Backburner or the Razorback: using it legitimately makes you less effective at your class in exchange for a stupid 1% situational buff that tricks the unaware or the stubborn. Out of minor respect to the Backburner, I will say that it's not as bad as the Homewrecker's 1%, but it has definitely earned it's reputation as a discredit to team.

It's not even useful in the same sort of novelty fun way that Fist Heavy or 25 HP Equalizer Soldier would be because the standard Fire Axe would be better in every way. Flat out useless items can just fuck right off. The Homewrecker would be more welcome as a statless reskinning of Pyro's Fire Axe.

And then we leap into the realm of the outright bad with the Pain Train, where-in we pass the defining feature of one class to two other classes who're already absolute juggernauts in every conceivable fight situation. I really don't want to see this sort of thing repeated. The Charging Targe + Eyelander are more respectable because they give the Demoman some sizeable penalties to compensate for his new super-powers: the loss of the sticky launcher is colossal.

I'm also skeptical of the whole "Valve will balance them if they're really that bad!" thing so many of you bring up because I know it took about a year for the Needle Gun to be put on equal footing with the Blutsager, the Equalizer still has a 90% equip rate and the Razorback exists at all.

Nobody's gonna throw a fit or pine for the good old days of no unlocks, but they will grit their teeth a little at people actually using the Homewrecker or Soldiers capping the last point of Gravelpit at the downside of maybe taking an extra 6 damage per shotgun spray. It's questionable design any way you slice it. It's a pack of dumb strawmen I see you guys tossing at Kayin. He and any other TF2 player are right to wonder why the item quality is so poor. Do all good ideas take 3-6 months to brainstorm?

I'm not naive enough to suggest that getting these three items somehow denied us three mythical, better items. If anything, I'm intensely curious for them to add some more user items so they can demonstrate that this might just be a misfire.

Can this be my 'support kayin' post too?

I'll add that I don't expect the Pain Train to see a TON of use.  The Equalizer is too damn good.  However, I am quite sure it will be a very viable switch to.

[Niku]

I'll add that I don't expect the Pain Train to see a TON of use.  The Equalizer is too damn good. 

Pain Train : Equalizer :: Bottle : Shovel

[Torgo]

I don't see the candy bar being mentioned.  I take it most everyone's okay with that?

[Mongrel]

Well, to put it bluntly, it sucks.

[Niku]

Yep.

[Kayin]

Well, the pain train is one of those things that will be all over pubs. We already saw some insane caps on Harvest. Mostly when I say it's use is limited, I'm speaking competitively. Competitively it's situational I think. Equalizer is really good, but a pocket soldier might use it. Comp demos? Less so. Scout are their worst enemy. They can survive that fight, but would they want a disadvantage? I don't think so. 20something life in comp play compared to pub play is a big difference. The only other thing I'll say is scouts are actually a pretty damn good fighting class.

The paintrain doesn't 'destroy' the scouts purpose at all (lets not forget mobility + the fact that the scattergun is actually a really strong weapon), but it makes him unnecessarily share that spot with two classes that never would ever deserve that bonus. Though I'm sure we'll all be thrilled when a team of soldiers are sitting on the last point of steel. The important thing to see here is Valve is showing no quality control. They release two bad items (the chocolate I guess being tolerably bad, and the home wrecker being glaringly bad), and an item that is secretly 'too good'. How too good is clearly arguable, but the weapon still creates some unnecessary class overlaps and generally speeds up capping which.... you know.... isn't.... actually a good thing?

"Hey we designed the map to cap this fast with this many people! -- oh... oh wait. :( So sad."

[Torgo]

Well, to put it bluntly, it sucks.

Oh.  Well, that kind of stinks.  I hadn't seen the specific stats on the chocolate.  With that being said, sure, these items don't necessarily hurt the game, but what the hell is the point in adding items no one is going to use.  Even the Razorback I could conceivably see using if I'm using the Sniper Rifle and I know there's a Spy or two lurking around.  (I never have, but then, I don't use the Sniper Rifle.)

I would argue that the Pain Train, regardless of what it does to balance, at least shakes things up a bit, since people will actually use it and see what they can do with it.  It will probably (assumingly) be fixed later down the line.  I can get behind that.  Releasing stuff that's vestigial, worthless crap right out of the gate is more galling to me.

[Doom]

Even the Razorback I could conceivably see using if I'm using the Sniper Rifle and I know there's a Spy or two lurking around.  (I never have, but then, I don't use the Sniper Rifle.)

This is a myth because you will just be executed via point-blank revolver shots before you can de-scope. The Razorback is almost irredeemable and needs a redesign.

[Smiler]

Don't give Valve ideas. It'll delay the engie update for another 4 months.