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Author Topic: hai guyz  (Read 5532 times)

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Thad

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2008, 10:07:27 AM »

PS: Clutch, am I remembering correctly that your birthday was around this time of year?  If so, happy birthday!

I'm impressed, Thad; it's a week away.

Eh, don't be THAT impressed; mine was last week and I just remembered that they were close together.

can we go back and retroactively replace every one of Guild's Real World posts with a post by Clutch

Clutch, whaddaya say?

I'm going to vote for Bob Barr, but god dammit if I can't accept as a Libertarian a man who for twenty-plus years worked to build the War on Drugs into the rights-seizing juggernaut it is today. And now he's going to smack his forehead and act like he made a simple mistake? Bullshit.

No shit.

Although I AM curious to hear a Libertarian perspective on the financial meltdown, given that most people seem to agree that deregulation and lack of oversight got us here.  Except the ones who say it's the black people's fault, which brings us back to
can we go back and retroactively replace every one of Guild's Real World posts with a post by Clutch
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Guild

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2008, 10:18:22 AM »

Although I AM curious to hear a Libertarian perspective on the financial meltdown, given that most people seem to agree that deregulation and lack of oversight got us here.  Except the ones who say it's the black people's fault, which brings us back to
can we go back and retroactively replace every one of Guild's Real World posts with a post by Clutch

It's FDR's fault for creating a mortgage market.
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clutch

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2008, 10:43:49 AM »

Eh, don't be THAT impressed; mine was last week and I just remembered that they were close together.

I'm still impressed. I can't keep track of what I've ordered from Amazon, and you're remembering the birthdays of faraway internet peoples. Also, happy birthday!

can we go back and retroactively replace every one of Guild's Real World posts with a post by Clutch

Clutch, whaddaya say?

I guess I'll start writing.

I'm going to vote for Bob Barr, but god dammit if I can't accept as a Libertarian a man who for twenty-plus years worked to build the War on Drugs into the rights-seizing juggernaut it is today. And now he's going to smack his forehead and act like he made a simple mistake? Bullshit.

No shit.

Although I AM curious to hear a Libertarian perspective on the financial meltdown, given that most people seem to agree that deregulation and lack of oversight got us here.  Except the ones who say it's the black people's fault, which brings us back to
can we go back and retroactively replace every one of Guild's Real World posts with a post by Clutch


It certainly was a lack of oversight that caused this, but it's really not as simple as that. The problem with our government is that it half-asses everything*. If the government puts into effect socialist-style policies like the ones that encouraged (forced?) lenders to extend mortgages to "low-income" families, it's then the government's responsibility to watch over the process and ensure that the loans are extended and handled responsibly. Either the country's socialist or it's not, and now after the bailouts (including those going all the way back to Amtrak and the airlines) it's pretty obvious that we are.

*See also the issue of illegal immigration: either you let everyone in and take away entitlements from everyone--citizens included--or you tighten the borders to keep everyone out. You can't have both.
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Doom

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2008, 10:54:43 AM »

Quote
I'm in my mid-twenties, yet I seem to be the only one to recall that nearly every election in our country's history that followed the office of a termed-out president featured at least one reform candidate promising change, change, change

In all fairness no termed-out president has ever fucked things up as spectacularly as G.W. It is truly an amazing record of failure.
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Guild

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2008, 10:56:08 AM »

can we go back and retroactively replace every one of Guild's Real World posts with a post by Clutch

Clutch, whaddaya say?

I guess I'll start writing.

I wouldn't wish that on the worst of the worst.

Edit: On second thought, this might elevate the content of the responses to hilarity.
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Cannon

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2008, 11:00:22 AM »

So Random-Guy is some jerk named Cannon who's been browsing more than he's been posting lately.

Nice to see you around, Clutch. Please stay.
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Thad

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2008, 11:03:50 AM »

Clutch: Good answer.  I could debate the semantics (I absolutely believe there are degrees of socialism and it's not an either-or prospect), but I find the content satisfactory even if I don't agree with it.  (I think oversight is necessary even in the absence of social programs, and that those in power are always vulnerable to corruption.  It wasn't social programs that set off the market crash in '29.)

Guild: Look at Clutch's post.  That is what a good post looks like.  Now look at yours.  That is what a bad post looks like.  And yet, the two of you are endorsing exactly the same point.  Are you going to try and tell me I'm persecuting you for disagreeing with me again?
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Guild

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2008, 11:32:12 AM »

yes because it's funny only to me

no
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Büge

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2008, 12:16:41 PM »

It's FDR's fault for creating a mortgage market.

Oh, so now you've got something against the disabled?
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clutch

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2008, 12:21:03 PM »

I think oversight is necessary even in the absence of social programs, and that those in power are always vulnerable to corruption.  It wasn't social programs that set off the market crash in '29.

Though the two events are lumped together so often as to be indistiguishable, I don't believe the 1929 Crash caused the Depression. Shortly after the Crash, Congress passed several reactionary bills, the most notable being the Smoot-Hawley Act, which sharply increased tariffs on imports and led to a series of similar bills being passed by other countries. This all had the effect of squelching overseas trade and the doubling of the US unemployment rate within a year.

Another primary cause was intentional inflation that the US government pushed by printing more and more money in the years after WWI. The reasons for this were many--mainly they wanted to restore solvency to Britain--but it had the effect of producing an unrealistic and unsustainable boom in the US.

Forgive me if I'm being overly pedantic here, Thad, but I just reread America's Great Depression, a book written in the 60s which talks about exactly what we're going through now: the low ebb of a "credit cycle" caused by the Federal Reserve (a government-controlled bank) setting the interest rate too low for too long, discouraging savings and spurring speculation in risky markets (stock exchanges and mortgage-backed securities, for example). As much as I would like to feel that those irresponsible investors back in '29 were getting their comeuppance--it's a very strong and important market factor in a laissez faire economy--I truly feel that the blame lies in government intervention in the financial sector.
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Thad

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2008, 11:19:55 AM »

Though the two events are lumped together so often as to be indistiguishable, I don't believe the 1929 Crash caused the Depression.

It certainly wasn't the SOLE cause, but I don't think it can be dismissed as A cause.  Similarly, the New Deal was less important in stabilizing the economy than WWII, but it's generally accepted that it helped.

At any rate, whether or not the market crash caused the Depression, I think we can agree it was very bad financial news.

Shortly after the Crash, Congress passed several reactionary bills, the most notable being the Smoot-Hawley Act, which sharply increased tariffs on imports and led to a series of similar bills being passed by other countries. This all had the effect of squelching overseas trade and the doubling of the US unemployment rate within a year.

The dilemmas of global trade are enough to warrant an entirely different thread (or several -- we've already got China is Fucking Scary) -- as you say, raising barriers to imports can hurt American jobs, but obviously lowering them can too.

Another primary cause was intentional inflation that the US government pushed by printing more and more money in the years after WWI. The reasons for this were many--mainly they wanted to restore solvency to Britain--but it had the effect of producing an unrealistic and unsustainable boom in the US.

We've had more than one bubble in the past decade, between dotcoms and housing.

Forgive me if I'm being overly pedantic here, Thad, but I just reread America's Great Depression, a book written in the 60s which talks about exactly what we're going through now: the low ebb of a "credit cycle" caused by the Federal Reserve (a government-controlled bank) setting the interest rate too low for too long, discouraging savings and spurring speculation in risky markets (stock exchanges and mortgage-backed securities, for example). As much as I would like to feel that those irresponsible investors back in '29 were getting their comeuppance--it's a very strong and important market factor in a laissez faire economy--I truly feel that the blame lies in government intervention in the financial sector.

Not mutex.  Government meddling and irresponsible business practices can and do exist side-by-side.

The problem with the notion of "investor comeuppance" is that when the investors go down, they take everyone else with them.  If this happened in a vacuum and only the guilty were punished, hey, great, but that's not the way it ends up working out.
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clutch

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2008, 06:46:27 PM »

I'm more than a little tipsy and I don't know what mutex means. I'll read this again tomorrow.
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Thad

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2008, 06:51:01 PM »

Mutually exclusive.
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Classic

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2008, 06:52:44 PM »

Ain't that CS jargon?
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Thad

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2008, 06:58:57 PM »

Yeahuh.  Sorry.
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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2008, 07:20:45 PM »

Don't apologize. Mutex Hi5!
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Mongrel

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2008, 04:11:41 AM »

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Shoe

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2008, 05:07:32 AM »

Clutch so amazing sometimes Clutch no can stand Clutch.

I still have a Christmas card from Clutch from 2003 where he mailed me a dollar.

True story.
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clutch

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2008, 08:49:08 AM »

Clutch so amazing sometimes Clutch no can stand Clutch.

I still have a Christmas card from Clutch from 2003 where he mailed me a dollar.

True story.

I really am a sweetheart. Also, I think you misquoted me.
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Thad

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Re: hai guyz
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2008, 10:56:05 AM »

SHOE'S BACK TOO
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