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[King Klown]

It seriously takes very little work, far less than, say, raiding karazhan every week. If you're not willing to do the work, then you don't get to compete with those who are. Sorry. If you want a completely skill based competition, there are plenty of games out there for that purpose. But part of playing an MMORPG is getting a reward for all the time you accrue playing it.

Yes, gear is easy to obtain. Don't know why I responded to this. 

You've been away from the game for a while doom, I can certainly excuse it, but most of these problems aren't related to paladins, so much as the state of the game changing.

Its the state of the game changing and paladins. I played a paladin for three years, he was my 2nd character next to my warrior. My paladin in Protection gear, typical 14k Kara and badge gear tank is reduced to nearly nothing when faced with a Ret. paladin unless Shield block is up. And even then I'd have to hope he didn't have HoJ up, or I'd be eating crits and hits to the face.

You have a class that can stun, deal unmitigatable damage in the form of high chance crits, and can heal itself and others well, not to mention 12 seconds of immunity with 20% increased damage. That's the class. That is fine. The problem is they're using tools that are intended for level 80 content. That is the state of the game. Its not simply one or the other, its both combined that form the problem of an unstoppable class that can go 40 - 1. (I've gone 38-0 in a BG before I left to go to school, with my Ret. paladin.) Its the same thing that happened with paladins before in 2.0. I felt ridiculously OP then too.

[Doom]

Fun numbers: Current Timbermaw Rep is 900/3000, Neutral.

Raw bears needed to hit revered: 5,025.

REQUIRED Beads/Feathers to go from revered to exalted: 350.

Bears deducted for Friendly-level quests: 350 + 350 + 250 = 950

Adjusted Bear Total: 4,075.

Bears deducted for every extra 5 beads/feathers after the necessary 350: 75 per five.

... Hmm. That's a lot of god damn bears.

[Bal]

Just aggro every bears

[Shinra]

Why do you keep mentioning my gear and ignoring that A) it is happening to everyone, high or low resilience, class x or class y and B) the ret paladins doing it are often lazy bastards themselves.

The bar to entry the minute 3.0 stopped chain-crashing the servers was "a blue two-hander, preferably freshly looted from your last 70 instance."

That's why them ret boys got nerfed, and them lazy ret boys are probably the ones crying the hardest.

I'm just sorry they had to leave Paladin hollow and broken when they were done.

A blue geared paladin has about 20% crit. After 300 resilience, that number is 10. He's also critting for about 1.5k with his strongest stuff, at most. So, all but 10% of the time, he hits for 700 damage. The 10% of the time he crits, he hits for about 1300 after resilience damage reduction. Someone with 300 resileince also usually has to the tune of 10-12k hp. Which means it's going to take an average of about 15 swings to bring me down. I wouldn't call that 2-3 shotting. Yes, I have fought other paladins in arena, and yes, I have lived a decent portion of the time. Even an epic geared paladin takes a while to kill someone with a lot of resilience. 10-12 hits on average. Granted, they can put five right away in a fight, but after the initial stun there's no more power left there. If you're not living through the stun, examine your gear choices, the amount of resilience you have, and your HP totals. If you don't have 10k hp or at least 300 resilience, farm until you do. You're going to experience the same problems with warriors, warlocks, well geared rouges, and especially mages.

Most, if not all PVP burst classes right now are based on critical hit damage. There is an obvious counter to that - resilience - and if you don't bother getting the counter you're going to get rolled every time. Warriors have been landing 4k executes and 2.5k mortal strikes, and 2k whirlwinds for the better part of two years. (see also: arcane/fire mages, destruction warlocks, etc) Arena and PVP as a whole have evolved around this. The people who get the resilience are the ones who succeed. There's a reason you won't see a single arena team wearing sunwell gear over gladiator gear past, say, 1600 rating - They simply cannot compete. Resilience trumps everything. It is the best pvp survival stat in the game, bar none. It makes crits virtually irrelevant.

Edit: btw doom, trinket out of HOJ and then purge them. Now they can't judge you for another 1.5 seconds, while they wait for their GCD. Chances are, most paladins who are specced ret right now haven't been ret for very long, so most don't even notice and probably won't refresh their judgement immediately. You can also purge off wings, blessing of protection and any of their magic based buffs. The tools are there, at your disposal. Get the gear and learn the strategy and you can beat a paladin.

[King Klown]

Edit: btw doom, trinket out of HOJ and then purge them. Now they can't judge you for another 1.5 seconds, while they wait for their GCD. Chances are, most paladins who are specced ret right now haven't been ret for very long, so most don't even notice and probably won't refresh their judgement immediately.

Are you telling him to purge a paladin's seals? Not going to work if the paladin is smart and became immune via Sanctified Seals.

[McFrugal]

2 blue pieces of PVP gear (for the +35 reislience bonus. It stacks with the gladiator 2 piece bonus.) (Gained from hitting honored with the basic outland factions.

Where exactly did you get this from?  There's no pvp gear from factions that I know of, outside of the specific world pvp rewards.

2-3 hours of alterac valley on an AV weekend for a pvp weapon

Maybe for a one-handed weapon.  Also you have to be incredibly lucky with fast wins and being near the carnage for HKs.  I can get about 7000 honor from 3 hours of work, and that's less than half what you need.

3-4 weeks of doing your basic 10 arena losses per week for a couple of pieces of vengeful gladiator gear = 300 resilience.

Yeah, here's where I say fuck no.  I don't particularly want to play pvp with the INTENTION of losing.

Alternatively, cut out the arena, add another 2-3 hours of AV and you can have your entire set in a fucking day.

Oh my god.  You're retarded or crazy if you truly believe this.

It's even easier now that you can trade PVE tier tokens and badges of justice for PVP gear.

Again, where?  Pretty sure you can't do that!

[Norondor]

2 blue pieces of PVP gear (for the +35 reislience bonus. It stacks with the gladiator 2 piece bonus.) (Gained from hitting honored with the basic outland factions.

Where exactly did you get this from?  There's no pvp gear from factions that I know of, outside of the specific world pvp rewards.

Blues in every single area in outlands from the various quartermasters, obtained through rep with thrallmar, sha'tar, etc.

3-4 weeks of doing your basic 10 arena losses per week for a couple of pieces of vengeful gladiator gear = 300 resilience.

Yeah, here's where I say fuck no.  I don't particularly want to play pvp with the INTENTION of losing.

suck it up and get your arena points so you can win later.

It's even easier now that you can trade PVE tier tokens and badges of justice for PVP gear.

Again, where?  Pretty sure you can't do that!

Shattered Sun Offensive area, above the blacksmith.

I'm sure this is going to get some high-larious comments but Shinra knows what he's fucking talking about.

[Doom]

I guess in a world where I need 300 resilience to step up to a fresh 70 in blues/greens, I am a sucker for trusting the system to make any god damn sense. Still imbalanced and stupid as hell.

Thanks for assuming that I am simply too stupid to know how to play. I was kind enough to air my massive ignorance re:resilience but I guess you had to do me one better! I instinctively purge when I don't need my Global Cooldown available. To your own benefit, most retardins don't actually have Sanctified Seals.

The proposed HoJ trinketing ninjitsu doesn't work very well because REPENTANCE.

Guess I should've rolled one of those Human Shamans.

I get it, I give. Those darn Ret Paladins were completely within reason the entire time?

So what's up with the Holy Tree, wasn't it supposed to be restructured entirely with a radical new face of Paladin healing? Now it's just like "Holy Tree, with New Hat."

[Doom]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Niku]

thank god.

[Doom]

Achievement Unlocked: Level 80 of every class!

[King Klown]

I get it, I give. Those darn Ret Paladins were completely within reason the entire time?

Not at level 70, no, they're not reasonable. Maybe 80, but that is not a soup I'm going to touch.

I guess in a world where I need 300 resilience to step up to a fresh 70 in blues/greens, I am a sucker for trusting the system to make any god damn sense. Still imbalanced and stupid as hell.

No, anyone can PvP. How effective you PvP depends on your class, spec and gear. If Shinra has a green and blue warrior, he's not going to be using the same tactics as a warrior with full epics. Retards however can use the same tactics no matter what their gear level is right now (for the most part).

Yeah, here's where I say fuck no.  I don't particularly want to play pvp with the INTENTION of losing.

With how the arena system works and with point selling, losing at arena to get gear is almost a must unfortunately, unless you just vastly out skill your opponents.

You can't run a paladin out of mana anymore and play attrition. You can't run away from a paladin properly because you only have one trinket vs an instant 6 second melee range stun, a 20 yard range 10 second incapacitate, and Judgement of Justice debuff shenanigans. A shaman has no way to get away from a Ret. paladin unless the shaman goes   and bolts out of there ahead of time, but even then, a smart Retard has Crusader aura and the innate 15% increased speed anyways.

If you're telling Doom not to run away and to instead sit there and heal himself, then that used to be valid. I had a resto shaman and thought any melee class was absolutely adorable, because I could sit there spamming my heals, because my armor was so high with a shield. I sat in Terrokar forest healing myself for nearly 3 minutes as a rogue and (very bad) warlock beat on me until a rogue friend showed up to help me.

Doom in epic's might last 5 or 6 seconds longer against a Retard blowing all his cool downs (Avenging Wrath for damage, HoJ for an interrupt of heals, Repentance for another interrupt) and if the Retard is particularly smart, he'll use Seal of Justice to interrupt a big heal like Healing Wave. Hell, if a paladin gets Doom too 35% of his health, or anyone for that matter save for a warrior stacking stamina in his slots, is a near Insta-Gib because of INSTA-HAMMA GG.

The +% to crit damage that Ret. paladins have access to is an amazing increase that surpasses what 300 or more resilience used to give you.

[Pacobird]

Maybe for a one-handed weapon.  Also you have to be incredibly lucky with fast wins and being near the carnage for HKs.  I can get about 7000 honor from 3 hours of work, and that's less than half what you need.

Maybe you'd prefer it if it were the old way where you had to grind out Exalted with Frostwolf to get a competitive weapon, and even that was arguably too easy?

Seriously, this is tier 5 level shit we're talking about here.  Balanced against the PvE game, I could name some non-MMO RPGs that require more grinding to get you kitted out with that level of gear, and that is saying a Whole Fucking Lot when some people have been playing one character at 70 for two years at this point.

SUCK IT UP

[King Klown]

I wish we had a thread where people talked about Wrath of the Lich King content and such instead of more e-penis bullshit that was just as tiresome on the official forums.

So who got the premium edition of WotLK? I tried too, but they apparently sold out within 24 hours or something. ;-;

[Kayma]

I'll be spelunking in Wal*Marts across Western Pennsylvania on midnight of The Day to get one. If the BC collector's edition was any indication, I'll be able to walk in and get one a year after its release.

[Friday]

I am looking forward to Arthas being dead!

Fucking poser. No matter how hard Blizzard wants you to be cool, you'll always be a whiny little bitch prince clone of a well done character to me.

The entire fucking concept of the Scourge being a greater threat to Azeroth than INTERSTELLAR DEMON SPACE ARMY OF DOOM is pretty fucking laughable, too. It's like releasing the next expak of WWII after dealing with Germany and Japan as WWII: THE WRATH OF ITALY

Other than that, Garona?????!?!?!?!!!!

[Norondor]

smart things

ilu friday

Somehow i am not as excited to go to alaska to help the walruses as i was to go to the hell of space to help the mushroom-men. but whatever!

[Niku]

two presents in one day?

You really didn't have to, Blizzard.  I'm touched.

[McFrugal]

Maybe you'd prefer it if it were the old way where you had to grind out Exalted with Frostwolf to get a competitive weapon, and even that was arguably too easy?

Are you seriously suggesting that the gear inflation that happened due to Arena seasons and other new content is comparable to The Unstoppable Force vs other common epic/rare level 60 weapons?  Hell I'm not sure there were any other common high-end weapons pre-TBC.  I didn't really play much after I got to 60.  Checking Thott, I do see that the big raid drops were huge, but few people had those.  Tons of people have Arena gear, making gear inflation more pronounced.

The difference in DPS between entry-level 70 weapons and the current Arena season gear is almost 40%.  That means the weakest ones- twohanders, in this case- are 105 DPS, while the strongest are at 140.  That's a little crazy when you take into account that these are for characters put in the same battleground and expected to compete.  There is no way someone on the low end is going to be more than a momentary distraction for someone on the high end.  Oh, and FYI I don't like tanking in TBC and therefore no longer go into dungeons so the best twohander I'm aware of that I can easily get (off the AH) is 90 dps- Crystalforged War Axe.  Taking a quick look, it seems 100 DPS is about what you'd get from the easiest level 70 dungeons that were in TBC when it came out... but then I can't be sure how the easiest Heroic dungeon compares to say, parts of Tempest Keep.  I don't know shit about high level dungeons.

Seriously, this is tier 5 level shit we're talking about here.  Balanced against the PvE game, I could name some non-MMO RPGs that require more grinding to get you kitted out with that level of gear, and that is saying a Whole Fucking Lot when some people have been playing one character at 70 for two years at this point.

SUCK IT UP

Okay so you're saying that because some other games are worse than WoW, it's okay for WoW to be like this?  I don't really care about the grind to be honest, but Shinra made it sound like it's easy.

It's not fucking easy.  You can't get a full set of Merciless Gladiator's gear from one day of pvp when first starting out.  You can't.  You definitely can't get more than one piece of armor from 2-3 hours.  Of course, with at least a week of 2-3 hours of play a day I'm sure you can get most of the gear needed to be useful in BGs.  Perhaps not truly competitive when up against the big guys, but you won't die in two seconds.

P.S. the faction rewards that had Resilience weren't there when I was leveling in those areas!  So now I know.  I might go check some out to see if I can improve my gear.

[Doom]

207 achievements. Solo'd BRD and Dire Maul East effortlessly. Ran into trouble in Dire Maul North... actually died to Kromcrush and his retaliate + him and reavers hitting my shieldless enhancement ass for 700+.

Come back and try him again. He fears my wolves the instant they spawn and I have to pop pots and desperation heal until they can return and taunt... with me at 47 hp.

Kromcrush, you magnificent bastard.

McFrugal: You didn't play much at 60. You rely on the AH to provide you with gear.

You "don't do dungeons in BC" and I take it you're unaware that any heroics and Kara/Zul'Aman/Gruul's/Mag can be pug'd relatively easily and effectively, though you may be subject to a gear check for ZA and Gruul's/Mag's if the raid leader isn't a friend of yours.

You had practically two years to convince another lazy human being to lose ten arena matches in an hour once a week.

I'm not sure what to say. You seem to resent the game for asking you to play it.

... No really, you don't do dungeons? Can't you just buy two of those god-awful axes, spec to Fury and leech a bit? Good lord, man. I know Wrath's about to come out, but the stuff is practically free. It's certainly not a bad way to play with specs or pass the time...

All the heroics need are a tank with decent gear and a healer with half a brain...